Author Topic: Total seal 2nd rings  (Read 4293 times)

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57 lima bean

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Re: Total seal 2nd rings
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2018, 02:01:13 PM »
Jim...Are you using an OEM V.Damper?If so,check for ring rotation.

Jim Comet

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Re: Total seal 2nd rings
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2018, 02:41:36 PM »
Good thought, this is the same motor that had the odd chatter marks on the main bearings and some metal transfer on the main caps. I am going to have another block machined to use these internals after having it all checked out. Jim

Coreyc619

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Re: Total seal 2nd rings
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2018, 11:59:12 PM »
Yes, I done had already seen'st it.  *Since FE dudes want to fist fight over things like: whether or not drip tins are needed, how accurate the gonkulator is, whether or not your aluminum carb spacer was cast at a foundry in Korea, etc... let me just point out that I didn't bother to orient the rings correctly or as removed... I threw a pile of pieces into a circle and snapped this pic with my phone years ago, to send to a friend.*  And, what those drain back holes in the head do underneath that valve cover are their own dang business. Well... used to be.  THANKS JAY.

This engine was assembled probably around 99-2000, using total seal gapless 2nd/file to fit on some regular cast pistons, almost identical to yours.  Basically a "410".  I found two holes like this, on tear down... 2nd ring was between .024 and .026 on all - I assembled/filed them myself. Nevermind I was ~14 at the time... I did "roll" the rings into place though - which is something I've not had a problem with yet. I know it's the internet and anyone can make stupid silly claims, so I won't.  Most of you wouldn't believe me anyway... but I've assembled my fair share.  If the motor wasn't serious enough for me to take the time to lap the rings, I usually don't bother using a spreader.  Small bore stuff is an exception here (real small, like... a chainsaw)

I know for sure that I rattled the balls off that FE trying to learn how to curve a distributor/other things tuning related.  Mild pinging, but plenty of it.  Definitely a possibility... It also sat up for a good 6 or 7 years - I noticed that one of the cylinder walls where a broken ring was found, was apparently parked with the intake valve open, because there were obvious signs of moisture intrusion and "puddling".  Cylinders 7 and 8 actually, which... coincidentally have the potential for both of their intake valves to be open at the same time, so I chalked that up to storm water. Found signs water made its way down firewall, past air cleaner (Hurricane Rita, Ike, Humberto etc... no choice.).  My conclusion could be complete garbage - I didn't care enough to dig further because I had no intention of using any sort of similar setup on the rebuild, as far as rings and pistons.

I've never been a fan of total seal - not to be an ass, but because... well, experience.  I used total seal ONE other time, several engines later in another fun project... I pulled that motor after less than 5K miles in favor of Akerly and childs hellfire... never looked back.  In that case, nothing was visibly wrong.  Wear patterns looked great... but the number one cylinder (SBF in this case) suddenly jumped up to around 9% leakage while the other seven cylinders were still putting up post break-in numbers.  After the re-ring, didn't change the combo other than spraying it nearly twice as much... never had another problem.  Usually when I worked on SBF's with hurt cylinders, it was always number 4, or especially 7 anyway.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 01:50:50 AM by Coreyc619 »

Falcon67

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Re: Total seal 2nd rings
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2018, 08:54:57 AM »
My personal opinion is that "gapless" rings are good for something like Pro Stock where every .01 HP is needed.  Other than that, no.  Marketing who-haa.

Coreyc619

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Re: Total seal 2nd rings
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2018, 01:02:08 PM »
I'm not so sure they're even useful there. If you look around, nationwide at the leading builders of various engine platforms... You'll rarely see any mention of gapless rings being used. The only time I've seen these uses with success is on big inch nitrous motors where the builder has done enough of them to figure out what they need to make them work. In those cases, the guy will swear by them. But... They earned it too... They figured how how to make them work, which honestly is rather elusive. And as far as rings and opinions... That's kind of like finding the right prop for your race boat - it's wicked gypsy voodoo, or black magic... There are very few that actually know the where's and why's - things you can't read on the mfg website... I am not one of those people, lol.  I have had better luck focusing on oil control and extremely methodical, careful assembly than I have from anything specifically linked to the ring design itself.  Just a view from one set of eyes.

I will also add, most of what I know/think I know about rings (well, the dirty details anyway) comes from playing with 2 stroke engines... Rings in that environment are substantially more crucial to making power vs in a 4 stroke. They have a much tougher job to do.. Well actually, they have several jobs to do.  Sealing the cylinder to convert thermal energy into a kinetic "moment" is but one... Depending on the variety of one's experience with various types of engines, a few folks might have a light bulb or two go off when reading that. Anyone seeking to know more about rings/oil control,  carburetors, or any other number of internal combustion engine concepts should pick up a copy of the Gordon Jennings 2 stroke tuners handbook. There are several gems of info in that book that can be directly applied to 4 stroke engines as well... And rules out all the garbage info one might find searching the internet forums. So much bad info floating around out there. If you REALLY want to be a nerd... Pick up some of Taylor's books... Much harder to read cover to cover though.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 01:18:56 PM by Coreyc619 »