Close vs. Wide

[plovett]

It will be a "slug" if you keep the same rear gears(apples to apples).  That is the problem and you have to take that into account.  You can tweak me all you want, but I know what works.   There is nothing wrong with a close ratio, but not for use in drag racing "today".  Not 45 yrs ago, today.  With today's technology.

You can run 3.25 gears with a wide ratio and get on the highway and cruise at much lower rpm.  Try that with 3.89/4.11's and let me know how you like it.  Yes, it might accelerate the same, but that is why everyone bitches about not having OD on the highway.  My truck has 4.56 gears and 29" tires and the 428 runs 3500 rpm on the highway.  Luckily I don't plan long trips with it, but I run the highway whenever the need arises.  It runs in the sweet spot and all I have to do it lean into the throttle and it runs away from traffic.

I agree, automatics seem to work better with less first gear.  Let the converter do the work.   Might build a bit of heat, but the cooler takes care of that.

I never made a comparison between two cars with the same rear gear and a wide and close ratio tranny.  My car has 4.11's and it's horrible driving on the highway.   I can do the math and see that 3.25's with a wide ratio is better on the highway.  I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. 

paulie

paulie

[BattlestarGalactic]

You kept saying how a close ratio works out better, but you change the numbers in the rest of the equation(ie=rearend) to get it.     That is not an equal comparison if you are comparing just the transmission first gears(which is what the post was about).   Granted, it was about C6 gears but the toploader was mentioned and the whole conversation went sideways.  Which again is not apples to apples.


That was my point.   Your comparison is not legitimate to what was asked.

[plovett]

Somebody else brought up wide and close ratio toploaders.  My comparison is legitimate because there is no reason why you have to run the same rear gear with two different transmissions.  That wouldn't make any sense.

JMO,

paulie

[cammerfe]

In a word, perception.

KS

[plovett]

In a word, perception.

KS

Barry mentioned that, too.  Fair enough.

paulie

[cammerfe]

.Close ratio box with 3.70 gear would wipe a Sof Loc clutch out in a weekend

I street raced a 428CJ (Fairlane) Cobra and a 429CJ Spoiler in the 80's, both with 2.32 first and 3.50 gears. Both had clutches that were already in there when I bought the cars. I pounded them hard. No failures. Maybe it's today's clutches that are garbage. When I see the move away from B&B Long to those phaggy diaphragm (GM-style) clutches, I know the end of the world is not far away. Gimme three fingers, baby.

When I ordered my '64 Custom/427, I had a choice of a 3.50 or a 4.11. I got a 4.11 and then sourced a 3.50 for daily drive-around and long trips. But the 3.50 was hard on the clutch. (I'd replaced the T-10 with a big in-'n'-out Top-Loader. Doing so meant replacing the disc and that meant going to truck parts for such as the disc and the fork and the TOB.)

Several months later I pulled one face off the disc. Checking told me that it was fairly common with the 3.50 gear. So it's nothing new!

KS

[Rory428]

I have used C6s in my Fairmont, with both the stock ratios, and later, with the Ford Motorsport "Low drag low gear" setup. I ran the car for several years with the 2.72 1rst gear and 4.56s in the rearend, and I did like the lower gearing. Bear in mind that I only drive the Fairmont at the dragstrip, and with slicks, it always hooks well.My thinking with my car was that I didn`t want to rev the stock 428 internals much over 6000 RPM, so that ruled out as much rearend gear as I would have like for strong acceleration, the lower 1rst gear helped the launches, and the 428 had enough torque to not mind the bigger drops on the gear changes.
As for the close vs wide Toploader, I vote wide ratio all the way. I had 4.30 gears in my 70 428 CJ 4 speed Mach 1, with 28" tall Goodyear slicks, even dumping the clutch over 5000 RPM, the car felt weak thru 1rst gear. For 1 race, a buddy lent me his big spline, 2.78 1rst gear "crashbox" Toploader from his old Modified Production Pinto. We did not have 60 foot times back in those days, but the improved launch was amazing, unfortunately, the main shaft broke on the 2-3 shift, so I never did get to make a full pass with the wide ratio, but in talking to other Ford stick racers at that race, they expected a 2 to 2 1/2 tenth immprovement in the 1/4 mile numbers. Even at only 3100 lbs, my 428 or 427 FE powered Fairmont used a 3.19 1rst gear and 4.56 gears, and did not seemed over geared, with the 331 SB Ford, I also  use a 3.19 low gear and 5.13 rear gears, and may switch to 5.38s. Having owned several Toploader equipped street cars, both close & wide ratio, I can not think of any situation where I would chose a close ratio version. (I don`t road race!). The main reason the FOX 5.0L Mustangs were so stong running with moderst HP was that the T5s had a 3.35 low gear. A FOX Mustang with that 3.35 1rst gear, and only 3.08 rear, has more starting line ratio than my 70 Mach 1 had with a close ratio Toploader and 4.30s! Years ago, I drove my buddy 66 7 Liter Galaxie, with 3.00 gears and a close ratio Toploader, and it was an absolute turd for acceleration off the line. So was another buddys 70 Boss 302 with a close ratio and 3.50s. Sorry Paulie, this isn`t just numbers on a calculator, but real world driving experiances. Back in the days of crappy skinny street tires, the close ratios tall 1rst gear may have been OK, but I don`t race on F70 14s anymore.

[FElony]

... Even at only 3100 lbs, my 428 or 427 FE powered Fairmont used a 3.19 1rst gear and 4.56 gears, and did not seemed over geared, with the 331 SB Ford, I also  use a 3.19 low gear and 5.13 rear gears, and may switch to 5.38s.

Several years ago I did an "interview" with the owner of an E/Stock 390 Fairlane that was running at a Div 7 meet here in AZ. I posted this on the old forum. He was running 5.29's out back and a 3.29 in the Jerico. He said that first was only to 60-foot the car, and that was the best combo thus far for him. I don't recall his shift point.

[plovett]

Sorry Paulie, this isn`t just numbers on a calculator, but real world driving experiances. Back in the days of crappy skinny street tires, the close ratios tall 1rst gear may have been OK, but I don`t race on F70 14s anymore.

Me too, Rory.  That I have used stock and wide ratio C6's.  I already said that I think in a strip situation with lots of traction it would be different.  Maybe you missed that.

paulie

[Rory428]

... Even at only 3100 lbs, my 428 or 427 FE powered Fairmont used a 3.19 1rst gear and 4.56 gears, and did not seemed over geared, with the 331 SB Ford, I also  use a 3.19 low gear and 5.13 rear gears, and may switch to 5.38s.

Several years ago I did an "interview" with the owner of an E/Stock 390 Fairlane that was running at a Div 7 meet here in AZ. I posted this on the old forum. He was running 5.29's out back and a 3.29 in the Jerico. He said that first was only to 60-foot the car, and that was the best combo thus far for him. I don't recall his shift point.

Probably talking to Andy Kimball, right? Beige 66 Fairlane 390.

[FElony]

Probably talking to Andy Kimball, right? Beige 66 Fairlane 390.

Yes, I believe that was his name. You could run it through the archives in Anthony's forum, in theory. The pics are going to be gone, of course. I have them on another hard drive.

Edit: That would have been in the "Gallery" subforum.

[My427stang]

I like to tweak all you super low gear ratio manual tranny guys, but I get that it makes a difference.   It is funny though.  30-40 years ago, it was all close ratio this and close ratio that.  Now, it's all more ratio this and more ratio that.   I think catch phrases are just catch phrases and it's the specifics that matter.    I'll stand by my assertion that the close ratio toploader with 3.89 gears will pull harder in all gears than the wide ratio with 3.25's.  What bugs me is that as soon as someone hears "close ratio toploader"  they've already made up their mind that it's going to be a slug. 

JMO,

paulie

Well, a 4.56-4.88 car won't be a slug with a 2.32, it'll accelerate just like a 3.80 geared wide ratio....

Except that at the speed the 4.56 car is at 6500 rpm the 3.80 geared car will only be turning 5500 rpm 

As far as your example though, you aren't incorrect, 1st is a wash, 2nd and 3rd should pull harder with your close ratio, 3.89 combo, but if the car can pull 5700 rpm with a 26 inch tall tire, it's doing 115 mph, it's doing that at 4800 with the 3.25.

Even at 75 mph, there is a 600+ rpm difference driving down the highway

Wide ratio toploaders are not a must-do, but they are way more versatile in an engine with a relatively flat torque curve, but there is a point of no return, take a TKO with a 3.27 1st, it's nearly impossible to gear for both 1st and 5th in that combo.  2.87/.64 however is a nice big block street combo

[FElony]

The newest MT-82 and the new 10R80 have 4.24 and 4.69 first gears, respectively. With the Performance 3.73 gearset, that gives starting line ratios of 15.815 and 17.494. Underrated 460hp. Howzcum our steep first gears are useless, but them new cars ain't? 2018 Mustang weighs same as 1969 FE Torino.

[plovett]

How come really fast drag cars sometimes use a two speed tranny with a 1.82 first gear?

[plovett]

So since, I saw an 8 second car with a 1.82:1 first gear and a 1.00:1 second gear, I think that's what you need in any situation. 

JMO,

paulie