Block prep, oiling mods...

[My427stang]

There seems to be a lot of guessing here on what pump to use. Any pump is going to keep pumping till it runs out of oil. If you get the oil back in the pan at a rate equal to what's going out of the pan, it will never run dry. We only have so much control over that (return rate). The key is making sure that you don't exceed that return rate. Bearing clearances (including cam bearings), lifter to bore clearances, rocker clearances and all the combined "leaks" in the engine are going to determine the demand on the pump. The more demand there is on the pump, the more volume you need in order to maintain a certain amount of pressure. As long as the oil is getting back in the pan at the same rate it's being removed, you'll never pump the pan dry, regardless of the volume of the pump. Adding a quart of oil is a bandaid at best. It only prolongs the inevitable and causes other windage issues that can cost a lot of power...if that's a concern. If the oil system is working properly it shouldn't matter if you have two, three or six quarts of oil in the pan (other than because of dynamic issues).

Spot on, the added quart came from a 428 CJ TSB that really addressed the low capacity and poor baffling with a front sump.  If it didn't return, 1 quart wouldn't help, but if you consider the 428 CJ "pan lid" which isn't really a windage tray, a extra quart and the lid, kept a bit more oil down low, away from the crank, during launch.

A much better way is  having a modern oil pan with good baffles.  Aside from the stock pan, I have never seen a need to restrict.  The FE will return the oil, even if it's not using the returns only LOL and with modern valve seals and good guides, having a bit more oil floating around doesn't bother me and I think with an aggressive cam will help.

I am not sure anyone is guessing on pumps though, the FEs just aren't that fussy with pumps, it all comes down to what you like to see on the gauge.  A very stable lower end, a decent oiling system, that's why we discuss it so much, because they ALL work LOL  If any didn't, there wouldn't be a discussion.

In the end if you want to see some idle oil pressure with modern hot rod clearances, you need a pump with volume, however, having that volume at higher rpm isn't needed.  Again, easily changed with a spring and let the excess dump before it builds higher pressure.

[blykins]

Did a 445 with a Milodon 5 quart (6 quart total system including filter) factory style pan for a pickup a few months ago. 

Main bearing clearances were .0026-.0027 and rod bearing clearances were .0022-.0024.  Side clearances were .017".  Crank and cam thrust clearances were both .005". 

Used a standard volume pump with Valvoline VR1 10W30 and at operating temp, it was showing 25 psi at idle and 60 psi at a WOT dyno pull. 

Rockers were factory non-adjustables, no restrictors, no drip-tins, no drama.  Oil level didn't get over the spring cups, but springs and retainers were dripping oil when I pulled the covers.  The rocker arms shoot a stream of oil directly at the roof of the valve cover over 2000 rpm or so, which ricochets down and keeps everything nice and lubed up. 

This was a hydraulic roller camshaft with Morel lifters.

[gt350hr]

     Oil pressure is literally "back pressure".  So in Brent's example above , at idle the pump is flowing oil but not an excessive amount so the pressure drops a bit. This is natural. When it "revs up" the pressure goes up showing the pump capacity is still greater than the engine can accept.  IF the pressure  at  rpm was still in the 20-30 range , the capacity of the pump would be too little for the engine's demands and a higher volume /capacity pump could help unless it was a bearing  wear / clearance issue.  Let's say Brent installed a high volume pump in the example he gave. The idle pressure would certainly go up  since the pump output is higher at the same rpm. The high rpm oil pressure might not change beyond the 60 ( unless a higher spring was used)  and the oil would be bypassing more of the time which heats the oil a bit. Many people feel good when the oil pressure gauge "barely moves" . I'm not one of those people.

[gdaddy01]

has anyone every welded in one of the " check oil level" sensors out of a late model car , in the oil pan on fe , to see how low the oil level gets ?

[My427stang]

Did a 445 with a Milodon 5 quart (6 quart total system including filter) factory style pan for a pickup a few months ago. 

Main bearing clearances were .0026-.0027 and rod bearing clearances were .0022-.0024.  Side clearances were .017".  Crank and cam thrust clearances were both .005". 

Used a standard volume pump with Valvoline VR1 10W30 and at operating temp, it was showing 25 psi at idle and 60 psi at a WOT dyno pull. 

Rockers were factory non-adjustables, no restrictors, no drip-tins, no drama.  Oil level didn't get over the spring cups, but springs and retainers were dripping oil when I pulled the covers.  The rocker arms shoot a stream of oil directly at the roof of the valve cover over 2000 rpm or so, which ricochets down and keeps everything nice and lubed up. 

This was a hydraulic roller camshaft with Morel lifters.

Certainly plenty of oil pressure.  I have seen the stock style pans wiggle a sensitive gauge at launch on the street, on street tires, and if the gauge is wiggling, imagine what the bearing surfaces are seeing, especially out back.

The Milodon may have better oil control than the stocker but hard to tell in the car without a very sensitive gauge and an eye to watch it. 

[chris401]

has anyone every welded in one of the " check oil level" sensors out of a late model car , in the oil pan on fe , to see how low the oil level gets ?

Somewhere before or after the intake data Jay's book shows oil level data with various oil baffles installed and removed. You can weld a bung in the oil pan but will need a 5v source.

[wayne]

I always drill the main galley on top i have had some that have a neck down or something in the back part of it.Ever thing i do gets a h/v pump i have no use for the factory windage tray.

[Heo]

The top main oil galley is drilled from both ends. Sometimes the
drills is not centered to each others so you have a "step" in the
oil galley there

[gt350hr]

   One of the 427 engine development engineers at Ford was Bill Barr. He mentioned there was a 50 lb natural pressure loss from front to back in a 427 side oiler. Because of that Ford ran a 125 lb spring in the pump and a 75 lb spring in the relief at the back of the block.  So 60 lbs ''at the filter" could be 10 at the rear main. 30 at the filter would be a real problem at #5.
   This could be the reason the 351C-400 and 429-460 had pressure taps at the back of the block instead of up front.

[blykins]

I have checked oil pressure at the front and off the rear main on a sideoiler block.  It's about a 15psi differential.

[gt350hr]

   That's good to know Brent. 50 loss is pretty scary and why I repeated what he said hoping someone would have different results. Of all things ( being a Ford engineer) he cited "loose lifter bores" as the main loss of pressure. He was making the stuff and not had loose lifter bores LOL.

[jayb]

I did those same tests; they are detailed in my book.  Like Brent I saw a 10-15 psi drop from front to back, depending on RPM and oil temperature.  I would be shocked to see anything close to a 50 psi loss front to back; I just don't believe that's a real number.  Also, there is less loss with lower pressure and lower RPM.  So just because you have 15 psi on the gauge at the oil filter adapter at idle doesn't mean you have zero at the back of the block; probably more like 12.

[George vega]

That's good information. Thanks

[cammerfe]

FWIW, the front-to-rear gallery seems to be drilled by the factory as half-from-each-end. Shine a light down that hole on a few blocks and see that they often don't meet squarely in the center. You end up with a very small oval hole at the junction. A drill long enough to clean the whole thing out can be of great help. I found a reamer long enough at a cutter-sharpening operation that was going out of business and bought it for scrap price. He even resharpened the end to make it a cutter-reamer. But doing the job took a boring mill big enough that one had to climb up on it to do the work.

KS