Author Topic: Block prep, oiling mods...  (Read 13319 times)

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scott foxwell

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Block prep, oiling mods...
« on: August 14, 2017, 05:00:37 PM »
I've just about got my block done but I've read mixed opinions on one certain oiling mod so I thought I'd get some input here. Jim Dove's site and some others say to drill the passage from the #2,3,4 cam journal to the main oil galley out to 5/16" using the holes in the main saddles as guides. Some say don't do this, that it's not necessary. Seems to be a reasonable mod to me. I've done all the others except that, and drilling the main oil galley that runs the length of the block to 7/16. I did open the feed hole to 7/16" that runs diagonally across the front of the block . Everything is tapped for screw in plugs, I did the .50" hole to the oil pump, opened the pump feed hole, matched the bearing holes, etc.
TIA

blykins

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2017, 05:25:11 PM »
I have never done that.  I wouldn't want to make that area any weaker than it already is. 

I've never opened the main oil galley up either.   People under-estimate how much oil the factory holes can flow. 
Brent Lykins
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jayb

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2017, 05:38:09 PM »
+1 on Brent's advice, drilling that passage out won't help oiling any and it will weaken the block in an area where they are prone to cracking at #2 and #4.  Also IMO, there is a lot of "questionable" info on the Dove site...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Ranch

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2017, 05:53:14 PM »
What size engine?
What is your intentions for this engine, stock, nice street a little track, full race?
A bigger oil pan for anything more than stock, even then you should overfill by a qt. just in case. Good job on taping for the pipe plugs.  A HV oil pump is nice insurance but then you should definitely use a deeper oil pan. Match the main bearing to saddle oiling holes, a little dressing at the around the oil filter mount won't hurt and a CJ oil filter mounting bracket  Maybe tap the heads for 3/8-16 set screw rocker restrictions.
 All those 'drilling' oil mods you read about are more for the track guy, anything less than track to me is a kinda over kill. ...JMO

scott foxwell

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2017, 07:28:52 PM »
Engine is a 390 +.030, ~450hp, 6000rpm, hyd roller, hot street deal. Going in my 67 Fairlane.
I know the blocks will crack form the mains to the cam tunnel, but never heard of one cracking from the cam to the oil galley. It doesn't make sense to me that you have a 1/4" hole feeding the cam bearing, then feeding a 5/16 hole to the main. To me, that makes the 1/4" hole between the cam and main oil galley a restriction to the main bearings. It would be better if the cam bearing holes were 5/16 and the main saddle holes were 1/4", but it is what it is. I have a Canton pan, pickup and windage screen, HV pump, ARP shaft, will set bearing clearances accordingly.

blykins

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2017, 07:32:38 PM »
Skip the high volume pump, run a standard volume....

« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 07:41:00 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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scott foxwell

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2017, 08:26:02 PM »
Skip the high volume pump, run a standard volume....
If this was a race deal where I was looking for every last few HP I probably would.

fekbmax

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 10:49:10 PM »
+2 on not drilling the oil feeds from the cam journal's back to the main oil feed.
However i have and do always run a long 7/16" well lubed bit through the center main oil galley. Its more of a clean up than anything else.  I have seen many times for there to be some restrictions in this area. Especially  if you happen to sink a plug to deep when blocking off the lifter galley's.
As far as Dove's info goes, i believe there could be some questionable info there but i look at it more so as out dated or not updated.  It's the very same info and write up as that what appears in his earliest loose papper catalogs from 25 years ago. Things have changed and evolved with more and more excellent FE engine builders now. We always learn right ?? I think there is still some good info there as well. I remember when Dove and FPP were all there was for the FE faithful.  Like them or hate them, those guys played a huge part in keeping the FE alive back then. Now we have a fat handful of great FE engine builders and more parts to work with, + a guy like Jay that develops some awesome parts himself.
Of course all this is just my opinion. 
Keith.  KB MAX Racing.

blykins

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2017, 09:20:32 AM »
Unless you're running loose clearances, I don't see the need for a HV pump.  Customers like to see 9000 psi of oil pressure and the HV pumps usually offer a little more oil pressure than the standard volume pumps, so it keeps the complaints down. 

However, when I have a free-reign choice, I will go standard volume.  25 psi at idle, >60 psi at 6000.  It's sufficient for almost everything out there. 
Brent Lykins
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scott foxwell

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2017, 09:20:58 AM »
+2 on not drilling the oil feeds from the cam journal's back to the main oil feed.

I'm still not seeing the down side of this, especially when 2 & 4 also feed the rockers.

Heo

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2017, 09:32:59 AM »
The downside is that the block is prone to crack in that area
even undrilled so drilling is making it worse i been told....



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blykins

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2017, 09:36:00 AM »
Just doesn't need to be done.   There's enough oil flow there to supply what's needed.  The supply to the rockers are indeed fed from there as well, but check the hole in your head gasket from where the block feeds the head.  It's necked down there.

That whole area is just a spot I wouldn't be drilling on.  It's not uncommon to get cracks (or possibly even some core shift that weakens things) on the passages that lead from the cam bearings to the decks, then you get oil in the water. 

Brent Lykins
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blykins

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2017, 09:39:42 AM »
If you want to try something new, I have a fully enclosed cam tunnel for an FE.....
Brent Lykins
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HarleyJack17

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2017, 03:47:09 PM »
"I'm still not seeing the down side of this, especially when 2 & 4 also feed the rockers.

Scott, you have some good ideas but on the point being made concerning feeding to the rockers: there is no issue factory wise here. The FE "over oils" the rockers. Maybe not if everything was perfect but that is not how it goes. Most rockers are "loose" on the shafts causing a lot of oil bleed and pressure loss. This is why head gaskets have smaller than factory oil holes and most even reduce that down to .065-.075 in the head. If you take an FE and prime it with the valve covers off you will see this.  Don't get wrapped up in the size of the feed hole...that is one direction.  The "reserve" is the entire shaft.

You can limit rocker oiling or modify the drain back. Modifying the drain back can lose strength in the head/bolt depending on how its done/how much is done, so limiting the top end oiling is the best path. Adding a HV adds even more oil/issues if no other modifications are made.  As the engine wears the rockers get even more loose.
My own personal theory: the is cause for the low oil pressure/main bearing issues in older, non rebuilt FE engines, is the wearing of the rockers and the bleeding of oil in the top.  This causes pressure drop and loss of flow to the mains. Fluids take the path of least resistance. Anyway, you are getting some good advice from some folks that have built a lot of them. Good luck on your build.     

scott foxwell

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2017, 05:35:21 PM »
Thanks HarleyJack...I understand the issues with oiling the top end. I'll be installing restrictors in the heads but honestly, I don't mind a lot of oil upstairs. The valve springs love it. As long as there is an adequate supply for the rest of the engine... :)
Drain back is something I'll look at.
My thought on 2&4 feeding the rockers isn't that the block needs drilling because of that per se, it's that there is an extra demand on that oil passage, however small or restricted, robbing oil that's not getting to the mains. Whoever designed this system where the feed from the main galley to the cam brgs is 1/4", and the feed from the cam bearings to the main bearings is 5/16... either didn't understand fluid dynamics, or didn't care, or there's a reason I'm not seeing. Maybe it's picking pepper out of flyshit but that's just how my mind works. I'll go on the advice of the strength issue...although that doesn't make sense to me either, but I'll trust the experience of others here.
Thanks for all the input.

cjshaker

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2017, 08:28:59 PM »
I'll go on the advice of the strength issue...although that doesn't make sense to me either, but I'll trust the experience of others here.
Thanks for all the input.

Experience is right. There have been numerous experiences over the last 20 years or so, by forum members where the block failed in that area, although to be fair, they were mostly drag cars. We've all seen the pictures of blocks that came apart in that area. The FE started out as a meak 332 destined for family transportation and nothing more. Ford was completely out of the performance thing in those days. Then things changed and the FE was the best platform to use for their newly developed performance program. They improved on a lot of areas over the years, but that is one area that did not change until aftermarket blocks addressed the area.
Doug Smith


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George vega

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2017, 10:10:21 PM »
I'm in the process of building a 390 also and I followed Brent's and Jay's advice on this topic.
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My427stang

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2017, 06:46:41 AM »
So I agree that for making power, an HV oil pump is not needed.  I also agree that I do not like to touch the main galleys and I don't do a lot of oil mods other than a little blending.

However, I like HV pumps, a lot, and honestly, would likely pick an HV pump with a standard spring first, next would be an HV pump as delivered, and third would be standard pump.  Remember, the taller HV gears will drive up idle oil pressure.  I know what you see on the gauge at idle when hot, even if it's low, isn't dangerous, but I like to see it on the gauge just the same.  It just makes me feel better to see decent oil pressure at idle, especially when clearances are a little higher for a healthy one.

The relief spring determines how much oil goes up top at RPM, not the gears.   Often people forget that "pressure is the measurement of resistance to flow" so, if you see 65 PSI, regardless of the pump design, the same amount of oil is being pushed to the bearings.  The difference is how much is dumped by the relief, which in theory could lead to foaming, etc, but really I think a good pan with enough volume and capacity is the primary focus,  especially for a front sump FE.  Of course an HV has a little more spring than a standard pump and a little less than an HP, so it is pumping more up top, but then I prefer to have clean returns and then I just let it flow.

I also very sparingly use rocker arm restriction too.  I have seen older FEs with loose tolerances smoke the outer rockers when they dump oil early.  The answer for that is, don't run loose clearances, however, it's impossible not to with needle bearing rockers, so I like to make sure I have more than enough oil in the rocker shaft.  Just a technique, and mine are primarily street builds, and not pushrod oiling, but with that and valve spring cooling, I like to let it flow.
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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2017, 07:41:21 AM »
I'll 3rd that! No need to drill out oil passages at all. Waste of time and money doing so. Really not needed....

I'm like Ross when it comes to HV oil pumps. I've always have run them in my FE's and see a lot of time on them.
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jayb

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2017, 08:12:12 AM »
I wish I understood the aversion some folks have to high volume oil pumps.  I always use them.  I like to see a lot of oil pressure at idle, and I like the safety factor that they offer in case of some kind of engine failure.  For example, let's say you inadvertently break a rocker shaft, spin a rod bearing, or something like that.  You suddenly have a big internal oil leak, which could rob oil from the rest of the engine.  A high volume pump will help you compensate for that and keep the rest of the engine in good shape. 

And as far as I'm concerned, an HV pump sucking the pan dry is a myth, even with a stock oil pan.  Not to say that a higher capacity oil pan isn't a good investment, because it is, but I've run a stock pan on my 428CJ since 1978, along with an HV pump, and never had an issue.  Quite a while back, Dave Shoe on the other forum challenged me to watch my oil pressure gauge in my Mach 1 during a drag strip pass, when I had the 428CJ installed.  He said I would see fluctuating or decreasing oil pressure at the end of the run.  He was wrong, it was steady at 80 psi the whole way.  The only oil mods to that engine were 70 Holley jets in the oil passages in the heads, and of course the factory recommended 6 quarts.

Some day I'm going to do a back to back dyno test of a standard oil pump vs. a high volume pump, just to see the difference in power.  I'll bet it will be less than a 2 HP difference. 

I will continue to use and recommend HV oil pumps.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2017, 08:18:18 AM »
Somebody, somewhere, either here or the other forum tested a standard volume against the high volume.  8 hp is sticking in my head for some reason.   I could be wrong. 

I don't have an aversion against high volume pumps, I just don't think they're necessary, like ultra-high oil pressure. 
Brent Lykins
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scott foxwell

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2017, 08:26:57 AM »

Some day I'm going to do a back to back dyno test of a standard oil pump vs. a high volume pump, just to see the difference in power.  I'll bet it will be less than a 2 HP difference. 

I will continue to use and recommend HV oil pumps.
ON BB Chev, difference between std volume and high volume is about 7hp. I've heard gearotor pumps use less power.
I won't use a stock windage tray. IMO all they do is reflect oil back on the crank which causes more windage issues and they prevent oil from getting back in the pan. A screen is a much better deal. The Y block is not the best design when it comes to windage and oil control.

My427stang

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2017, 01:23:43 PM »
If someone doesn't like or want the extra oil pressure/flow at RPM, put a standard spring in it.  I like the idle pressure, mostly because it makes me feel good when I look down at a hot street motor. 

It'd be interesting to see not only the HP difference between an HV and a standard pump, but the difference between a STD and HV pump both with the same spring/max pressure.  Is the power to drive the pump the same at any given relief pressure or does gear size matter? 

As far as the stock windage tray, on the last one I did, I drilled a series of holes along the "downward" side of the crank, not sure if it mattered, but didn't take long and the idea was that the holes will strip some oil


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Ross
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- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2017, 05:23:26 PM »
Didn't Barry test the HV vs standard pump?  If I recall he had a few extra HP with the standard pump.

***EDIT*** In Barry's Book, he mentions for his personal race engines he uses the standard pump to squeeze a few extra hp, but for customer engines he uses the HV pump.

I wish I understood the aversion some folks have to high volume oil pumps.  I always use them.  I like to see a lot of oil pressure at idle, and I like the safety factor that they offer in case of some kind of engine failure.  For example, let's say you inadvertently break a rocker shaft, spin a rod bearing, or something like that.  You suddenly have a big internal oil leak, which could rob oil from the rest of the engine.  A high volume pump will help you compensate for that and keep the rest of the engine in good shape. 

And as far as I'm concerned, an HV pump sucking the pan dry is a myth, even with a stock oil pan.  Not to say that a higher capacity oil pan isn't a good investment, because it is, but I've run a stock pan on my 428CJ since 1978, along with an HV pump, and never had an issue.  Quite a while back, Dave Shoe on the other forum challenged me to watch my oil pressure gauge in my Mach 1 during a drag strip pass, when I had the 428CJ installed.  He said I would see fluctuating or decreasing oil pressure at the end of the run.  He was wrong, it was steady at 80 psi the whole way.  The only oil mods to that engine were 70 Holley jets in the oil passages in the heads, and of course the factory recommended 6 quarts.

Some day I'm going to do a back to back dyno test of a standard oil pump vs. a high volume pump, just to see the difference in power.  I'll bet it will be less than a 2 HP difference. 

I will continue to use and recommend HV oil pumps.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 07:33:27 AM by jimeast »

fekbmax

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2017, 08:48:01 PM »
Has anyone here had any experience with the titan pumps for FE's ?
Keith.  KB MAX Racing.

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2017, 01:48:32 PM »
Years ago the factory racing Harley's came with a 1/4 speed oil pump, and the requisite increase in horsepower. They were fine if you didn't let them idle, or operate them at slower rpm, i.e., they were for racing. For street use they were a disaster. They would hammer the rods out in a few days, and these were roller bearing engines.
 
The FT motors used the HV pump for the same reasons, high loads at low rpms, exactly what a "hot" street motor has to deal with. I like the HV pumps, you can use increased clearances and high compression at engine speeds dictated by traffic conditions.
The std. oil pump was designed around fairly tight clearances, and worked fine with those.  When I worked at the Ford dealer I can remember FE's not having enough pressure at idle to put the oil light out at idle!  Always excessive clearance. The factory cam bearing oil hole position has a bit to do with oil pressure. As the hole moves away from 6:00 position the oil clearance is increased, with a corresponding loss in pressure.


chris401

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2017, 11:04:00 AM »
And as far as I'm concerned, an HV pump sucking the pan dry is a myth, even with a stock oil pan.  Not to say that a higher capacity oil pan isn't a good investment, because it is, but I've run a stock pan on my 428CJ since 1978, along with an HV pump, and never had an issue.  Quite a while back, Dave Shoe on the other forum challenged me to watch my oil pressure gauge in my Mach 1 during a drag strip pass, when I had the 428CJ installed.  He said I would see fluctuating or decreasing oil pressure at the end of the run.  He was wrong, it was steady at 80 psi the whole way.  The only oil mods to that engine were 70 Holley jets in the oil passages in the heads, and of course the factory recommended 6 quarts.
I will continue to use and recommend HV oil pumps.
As for sucking air with stock pan with only 5 qts of oil, that is not a myth. I ran a 390 at 6200 rpm down the interstate for the 5 minutes it lasted. Lost oil pressure till I let off. Oil pressure was weak but still had oil. Engine was together and running till I tried to idle home on the shoulder. However Ford designed the solid lifter 390/C3AE-C heads is how I left it except the HV pump. With Thunderbird valve covers there were no breathers to witness if they filled up or not. This engine had almost a year on it as a 17 year old's daily driver.

preaction

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2017, 01:35:13 PM »
Is it possible that a HV pump could over time  have an eroding effect on bearing material with all of the heat, pressure, volume and increased velocity of the oil over a relatively soft bearing material ?

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2017, 03:08:19 PM »
A high Volume Pump can suck a 5qt sump dry, I know. But only if the drain backs in the heads are restricted or you are leaking by somewhere real bad.  That is why first rule when installing a HV pump is to add an extra qt. of oil. 
Remember Pumps make flow, Restriction makes pressure, and your oil will seek the path of least resistance.
Say you have two oil pumps HV. & STD. both have the same pressure relief (65#), if the engine they are mounted on have tight clearances and drain back well, both engines will have the same pressure and will receive the same volume thru the system.  Now say you have a leak that the std. pump just can’t keep up with (sloppy rockers), pressure will drop but the hv. pump may overcome the leak  and still maintain pressure thru the system and to areas that need the oil. Me, I like that added insurance.
With all those hot spots that oil is trying to help cool I don’t think the pump is generating more than 220 deg.  No your bearings aren’t getting any more oil flow or pressure that would erode them…JMO
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 03:11:08 PM by Ranch »

scott foxwell

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2017, 08:27:58 AM »
There seems to be a lot of guessing here on what pump to use. Any pump is going to keep pumping till it runs out of oil. If you get the oil back in the pan at a rate equal to what's going out of the pan, it will never run dry. We only have so much control over that (return rate). The key is making sure that you don't exceed that return rate. Bearing clearances (including cam bearings), lifter to bore clearances, rocker clearances and all the combined "leaks" in the engine are going to determine the demand on the pump. The more demand there is on the pump, the more volume you need in order to maintain a certain amount of pressure. As long as the oil is getting back in the pan at the same rate it's being removed, you'll never pump the pan dry, regardless of the volume of the pump. Adding a quart of oil is a bandaid at best. It only prolongs the inevitable and causes other windage issues that can cost a lot of power...if that's a concern. If the oil system is working properly it shouldn't matter if you have two, three or six quarts of oil in the pan (other than because of dynamic issues).

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2017, 07:04:43 AM »
There seems to be a lot of guessing here on what pump to use. Any pump is going to keep pumping till it runs out of oil. If you get the oil back in the pan at a rate equal to what's going out of the pan, it will never run dry. We only have so much control over that (return rate). The key is making sure that you don't exceed that return rate. Bearing clearances (including cam bearings), lifter to bore clearances, rocker clearances and all the combined "leaks" in the engine are going to determine the demand on the pump. The more demand there is on the pump, the more volume you need in order to maintain a certain amount of pressure. As long as the oil is getting back in the pan at the same rate it's being removed, you'll never pump the pan dry, regardless of the volume of the pump. Adding a quart of oil is a bandaid at best. It only prolongs the inevitable and causes other windage issues that can cost a lot of power...if that's a concern. If the oil system is working properly it shouldn't matter if you have two, three or six quarts of oil in the pan (other than because of dynamic issues).

Spot on, the added quart came from a 428 CJ TSB that really addressed the low capacity and poor baffling with a front sump.  If it didn't return, 1 quart wouldn't help, but if you consider the 428 CJ "pan lid" which isn't really a windage tray, a extra quart and the lid, kept a bit more oil down low, away from the crank, during launch.

A much better way is  having a modern oil pan with good baffles.  Aside from the stock pan, I have never seen a need to restrict.  The FE will return the oil, even if it's not using the returns only LOL and with modern valve seals and good guides, having a bit more oil floating around doesn't bother me and I think with an aggressive cam will help.

I am not sure anyone is guessing on pumps though, the FEs just aren't that fussy with pumps, it all comes down to what you like to see on the gauge.  A very stable lower end, a decent oiling system, that's why we discuss it so much, because they ALL work LOL  If any didn't, there wouldn't be a discussion.

In the end if you want to see some idle oil pressure with modern hot rod clearances, you need a pump with volume, however, having that volume at higher rpm isn't needed.  Again, easily changed with a spring and let the excess dump before it builds higher pressure.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 07:07:10 AM by My427stang »
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Ross
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- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2017, 07:36:31 AM »
Did a 445 with a Milodon 5 quart (6 quart total system including filter) factory style pan for a pickup a few months ago. 

Main bearing clearances were .0026-.0027 and rod bearing clearances were .0022-.0024.  Side clearances were .017".  Crank and cam thrust clearances were both .005". 

Used a standard volume pump with Valvoline VR1 10W30 and at operating temp, it was showing 25 psi at idle and 60 psi at a WOT dyno pull. 

Rockers were factory non-adjustables, no restrictors, no drip-tins, no drama.  Oil level didn't get over the spring cups, but springs and retainers were dripping oil when I pulled the covers.  The rocker arms shoot a stream of oil directly at the roof of the valve cover over 2000 rpm or so, which ricochets down and keeps everything nice and lubed up. 

This was a hydraulic roller camshaft with Morel lifters.
Brent Lykins
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gt350hr

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2017, 11:47:03 AM »
     Oil pressure is literally "back pressure".  So in Brent's example above , at idle the pump is flowing oil but not an excessive amount so the pressure drops a bit. This is natural. When it "revs up" the pressure goes up showing the pump capacity is still greater than the engine can accept.  IF the pressure  at  rpm was still in the 20-30 range , the capacity of the pump would be too little for the engine's demands and a higher volume /capacity pump could help unless it was a bearing  wear / clearance issue.  Let's say Brent installed a high volume pump in the example he gave. The idle pressure would certainly go up  since the pump output is higher at the same rpm. The high rpm oil pressure might not change beyond the 60 ( unless a higher spring was used)  and the oil would be bypassing more of the time which heats the oil a bit. Many people feel good when the oil pressure gauge "barely moves" . I'm not one of those people.

gdaddy01

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2017, 02:28:56 PM »
has anyone every welded in one of the " check oil level" sensors out of a late model car , in the oil pan on fe , to see how low the oil level gets ?

My427stang

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2017, 03:16:36 PM »
Did a 445 with a Milodon 5 quart (6 quart total system including filter) factory style pan for a pickup a few months ago. 

Main bearing clearances were .0026-.0027 and rod bearing clearances were .0022-.0024.  Side clearances were .017".  Crank and cam thrust clearances were both .005". 

Used a standard volume pump with Valvoline VR1 10W30 and at operating temp, it was showing 25 psi at idle and 60 psi at a WOT dyno pull. 

Rockers were factory non-adjustables, no restrictors, no drip-tins, no drama.  Oil level didn't get over the spring cups, but springs and retainers were dripping oil when I pulled the covers.  The rocker arms shoot a stream of oil directly at the roof of the valve cover over 2000 rpm or so, which ricochets down and keeps everything nice and lubed up. 

This was a hydraulic roller camshaft with Morel lifters.

Certainly plenty of oil pressure.  I have seen the stock style pans wiggle a sensitive gauge at launch on the street, on street tires, and if the gauge is wiggling, imagine what the bearing surfaces are seeing, especially out back.

The Milodon may have better oil control than the stocker but hard to tell in the car without a very sensitive gauge and an eye to watch it. 
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

chris401

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2017, 06:26:53 PM »
has anyone every welded in one of the " check oil level" sensors out of a late model car , in the oil pan on fe , to see how low the oil level gets ?
Somewhere before or after the intake data Jay's book shows oil level data with various oil baffles installed and removed. You can weld a bung in the oil pan but will need a 5v source.

wayne

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2017, 08:32:06 AM »
I always drill the main galley on top i have had some that have a neck down or something in the back part of it.Ever thing i do gets a h/v pump i have no use for the factory windage tray.

Heo

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2017, 10:46:39 AM »
The top main oil galley is drilled from both ends. Sometimes the
drills is not centered to each others so you have a "step" in the
oil galley there



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gt350hr

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2017, 12:17:38 PM »
   One of the 427 engine development engineers at Ford was Bill Barr. He mentioned there was a 50 lb natural pressure loss from front to back in a 427 side oiler. Because of that Ford ran a 125 lb spring in the pump and a 75 lb spring in the relief at the back of the block.  So 60 lbs ''at the filter" could be 10 at the rear main. 30 at the filter would be a real problem at #5.
   This could be the reason the 351C-400 and 429-460 had pressure taps at the back of the block instead of up front.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 12:19:36 PM by gt350hr »

blykins

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2017, 12:54:27 PM »
I have checked oil pressure at the front and off the rear main on a sideoiler block.  It's about a 15psi differential.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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www.lykinsmotorsports.com
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gt350hr

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2017, 04:32:16 PM »
   That's good to know Brent. 50 loss is pretty scary and why I repeated what he said hoping someone would have different results. Of all things ( being a Ford engineer) he cited "loose lifter bores" as the main loss of pressure. He was making the stuff and not had loose lifter bores LOL.

jayb

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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2017, 09:49:32 AM »
I did those same tests; they are detailed in my book.  Like Brent I saw a 10-15 psi drop from front to back, depending on RPM and oil temperature.  I would be shocked to see anything close to a 50 psi loss front to back; I just don't believe that's a real number.  Also, there is less loss with lower pressure and lower RPM.  So just because you have 15 psi on the gauge at the oil filter adapter at idle doesn't mean you have zero at the back of the block; probably more like 12.
Jay Brown
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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2017, 10:32:39 AM »
That's good information. Thanks
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Re: Block prep, oiling mods...
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2017, 12:09:43 PM »
FWIW, the front-to-rear gallery seems to be drilled by the factory as half-from-each-end. Shine a light down that hole on a few blocks and see that they often don't meet squarely in the center. You end up with a very small oval hole at the junction. A drill long enough to clean the whole thing out can be of great help. I found a reamer long enough at a cutter-sharpening operation that was going out of business and bought it for scrap price. He even resharpened the end to make it a cutter-reamer. But doing the job took a boring mill big enough that one had to climb up on it to do the work.

KS
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 12:51:47 PM by cammerfe »