600 HP FE $18k VS 600 HP 460/514 $13k ?

[427HISS]

I have a long story, but will keep it short unless you want the long.

I built a 427 Cobra years ago, and built a 500 HP at the crank 428 FE.
I've always wanted a 427 side oiler, but they were very expensive and getting at 600 HP, was even more expensive.
After winning a Best Of Class 62' to 67' trophy at a Good Guys Car Show at the Kansas Motor Speedway, two editors
wanted my Cobra in their magazines. At the time, we were still racing 360 winged dirt sprint cars and always had great sponsorships.
I wanted to try and build a side oiler mostly paid by sponsores, for advertising their company's products, and asked the editors to wait.

Well, my engine builder went bankrupted, and stole my money and all products. He also stole my "spirit for life".
Several years later I'm trying again. Because of my and my wifes bad health, and our loss of great surance, we can't afford much of anything today.
We had to sell the 428FE and Tremec tranny to help pay for my MedFlight jet flight to the Mayo Clinic. 6k then 16k of Clinic's 26 day stay.

We're trying to save and build/buy a engine again.

For years, I thought the only engine I can put in my Cobra, is a 427 side oiler or 428, but because of cost, a 460 may,....be acceptable.   

I just can not, put a cheap purring kitty in a Cobra, but we want 600 HP/TQ this time. Being a sprint car racer, I need and can handle high power.
The problem is, reaching that goal is even more expensive than when we built the 428 years ago.

I prefer one of the newer aluminum or iron 427 side oiler blocks over a vintage, as their so much better built today, but cost is around 4k to 6k !

So, we are considering forgoing a FE, with a 385 series, 460/514ci.   
But, added to the cost, I'll need to trade or sell my new FE steel bellhousing, billet flywheel, clutch and, make/buy new headers for a 460. etc.

Buying 600 HP.....

427/482 side oiler is around $18,000 to $28,000

460/466ci 600 HP is around $8,995 (complete)

Ford 514  700 HP is around $12,600 (complete)

What's your thoughts, would you forgo a replica 427, 428 as original, or forget the nostalgia and go for the lower cost, larger HP/-TQ of a 514ci ?
Kevin

[Drew Pojedinec]

If going 460 based, ignore the 514 crate engine.
Just about anyone can take a D9 block, toss (just about any) heads on it, use a 4.5 inch crank stroke and make 600hp without any issue whatsoever.  At 545ci you could do it with stock heads if you wanted.... tho afr or scj would easier no doubt.  Wouldn't even need a wild cam.

Drop Scotty at Reincarnation a line....
or hit up Randy:  http://www.rmcompetition.com/ford-.html

[steinauge]

I believe I would build a big FE stroker for a Cobra just because that is what belongs in it.If you can do most of the work yourself I would think you should be able to come pretty close to your target power number for 7-8 grand. Certainly the 460 is a more modern engine but so is an LS----

[427HISS]

If going 460 based, ignore the 514 crate engine.
Just about anyone can take a D9 block, toss (just about any) heads on it, use a 4.5 inch crank stroke and make 600hp without any issue whatsoever.  At 545ci you could do it with stock heads if you wanted.... tho afr or scj would easier no doubt.  Wouldn't even need a wild cam.

Drop Scotty at Reincarnation a line....
or hit up Randy:  http://www.rmcompetition.com/ford-.html

Are you Scotty or Randy ?

I clicked on the business and looked at the listed engines, and they are a nice package. I may change or add products.
Who should I contact ?

[427HISS]

If going 460 based, ignore the 514 crate engine.
Just about anyone can take a D9 block, toss (just about any) heads on it, use a 4.5 inch crank stroke and make 600hp without any issue whatsoever.  At 545ci you could do it with stock heads if you wanted.... tho afr or scj would easier no doubt.  Wouldn't even need a wild cam.


Drew, I agree and I don't like the idea of not having an FE, just depends on pricing and HP/TQ. I just know how to get 600 HP out of a 428FE because of the cost and thin bores ?

 But, that way I can use the  new FE products I have.

[Drew Pojedinec]

Are you Scotty or Randy ?

I clicked on the business and looked at the listed engines, and they are a nice package. I may change or add products.
Who should I contact ?

You do understand that my name is umm well, fairly well displayed, so I am neither scott, nor randy.

They are both 460 based experts.  Randy has those prices displayed which is why I included the link, just to give you an idea.
I don't know how to say this properly, I um, find Randy to be kinda rude.  Scotty owns Reincarnation in Washington state.  He has a website, but it's fairly short on info, this facebook page has a bunch of real world builds:  https://www.facebook.com/SMJRHP/?fref=ts
Still.... if you are wanting 600-700-800hp and money is an issue, it sure is nice to start off with a junkyard pickup truck engine that can be stroked to 545cubic inches.....  You can do a lot of things wrong and still hit your goals


Me personally?  in an AC cobra?  It'd have to be an FE or a 289 for me, just personal preference..... but this isn't my car, so whatever, do what you have to do.

[e philpott]

Put a small block Chevy in it or LS Chevy in it if yer worried about dollars to horse power , otherwise build a FE , 600 hp is pretty easy to achieve

[jayb]

$18K -$28K for a 427 stroker?  No way it is that expensive.  I built a 500 HP 390 stroker for $6K, and upgraded the heads, intake, and carb to get 550 HP for another $2K.  I have about $13K in my 720 HP 504" dyno mule, with an aftermarket sideoiler block, 4.375" stroker kit, ported Edelbrock heads, etc.  Sure, a 460 based engine will be cheaper, but it doesn't belong in your car.  FEs are going to be more expensive, but not as expensive as you are suggesting...

[My427stang]

So I promise I'd be the first guy to not care a lick about whether the FE is right for the car.  I like FEs, but big number power per dollar is not their strong suit.  They are durable, pretty to look at, sound nice, etc, but certainly expensive compared to others.

I'd also slap an LS (or hell an AMC 401 if that was the engine I wanted to play with)  in anything for the fun of it, but I have too many FE parts laying around and toys set up for them.  I'd just paint it blue to steer the whiners away LOL

That being said, the 460 makes a LOT of power, but it is going to be heavy over the nose compared to an FE, and real heavy compared to a 351W.  If you don't care about originality, a real stout 351W-based alum headed stroker can be built at your power levels too and might even handle.  I think it would be the cheapest way out, especially if you shopped around for some used parts and the bolt ons are much more readily available.

[machoneman]

if you want a really great handling Cobra, a stroker 351W is the way to go. Put another way, the 351W, aluminum or iron, then a aluminum FE (size to be determined) then a iron FE finally the heaviest, a 429-460. Track work or a great handling open road Cobra requires balance, as a lot of nose weight works against the car's best traits.

JMO!

[jayb]

How much does an iron block, aluminum head 351W engine weigh?  An FE in that configuration weighs just under 500 pounds.  I can't imagine that a small block is less than 375.  For the extra cubes you can get with the FE (read low and mid-range torque), a 100 pound penalty is not that much.

[Falcon67]

Spreadsheet I have from old Ford docs lists a 351W "2V" base engine assembly at 448 lbs.  Add lubrication system, cooling system and "valve train system" for a total of 518 lbs.  351C system at 527 lbs.  1964 427 "prototype" at 658 lbs, 460 at 644 lbs.  All except the 427 are from 1973 time period.  Of course once you throw on aluminum heads, intake, new internals, etc all that goes right out the window LOL.  A 289/302 would be easy 50~75 lbs under a 351W. 

I'd agree that the OP pricing is off.  IMHO a 351C is comparable to an FE in parts costs - decent heads run in the $1600~2500 range, quality engine kits $2000+.  Stock block work in the $600~1000 range these days.  With all the misc and some shopping you can stay under $6500 and make good power.  I've got about 5200ish in the dragster's 351C, making maybe 550HP is decent air.  (not the 5727 DA we had Saturday LOL)

You could squeeze a Ford Racing "Boss 302" big inch small block in there and make near you goal with the right cam and tune up.  Spray it Old Ford Blue, put some fancy 8 pot Inglese on top and nobody's the wiser.  But as we alllll knoooow, mo' power is easier with mo' displacement. 

http://jiminglese.com/weber5_007.htm

[My427stang]

How much does an iron block, aluminum head 351W engine weigh?  An FE in that configuration weighs just under 500 pounds.  I can't imagine that a small block is less than 375.  For the extra cubes you can get with the FE (read low and mid-range torque), a 100 pound penalty is not that much.

I can't verify accuracy, but it looks like they start 100 lbs heavier on this website

http://gasalley.thetumbleweeds.net/tech_archive/general/engine_weights.htm

I'd also expect that given a common rear bell housing location, that weight is ever so slightly shifted rearward with a W as well being a shorter engine

I was being a little snarky earlier and not very pro-FE, I am a true blue FE lover, but even if weight is the same, a stroker Windsor can be real cheap power.  The thing to remember is, intake, heads, rockers, cranks, pistons, rods, all cheaper and in higher production my more companies and more used parts makes it easy

Brent and I rap about this now and again, it's just cheap and easy with a W and they do well.  That being said, I go on record that I am not a W guy and in the cars I drive (not a Cobra) would likely go big 385 if I stopped going FEs, which with the new pile of parts I recently grabbed will be no time soon LOL

[Joe-JDC]

Put it this way.  I have a 427W Dart aluminum shortblock in my garage awaiting heads , and at 71 years young, I can pick up the shortblock off a dolly and sit it on a cart by myself.  If I were to use an aluminum inline head like the AFR 225, Super Victor, and my Aviad aluminum oil pan, it is going to weigh less than a 289 from the time period.  However, in a Cobra, the FE just looks right and with anything else but a SOHC, or Boss 429, most folks will just walk on by.  Joe-JDC

[427HISS]

Hey Jay,
If I could get an FE for 600 HP/TQ for that kind of loot, then I'd be very happy !
I'll get back on later today to chat further with you guys.
Gotta work on the sprint car for a race on Wed.

[machoneman]

I'm with Falcon. A all iron 351W weighs 510, a number generally accepted by many.  Aluminum heads, intake and w/pump gets you approx. 460 lbs. It looks just like the original 289 based Cobra engine to boot.

Heck, even some of the driving greats of the era preferred the 289 version over the 427FE. But....they were racing these things on twisty tracks here and on European F.I.A. tracks where cornering speed and balance were more important than pure hp.

Btw, it's rare to see the many Cobra replicas here in Chi-town that don't have an FE.  I'd rather have an FE too as who beats on their street driven Cobra that hard? 

[Drew Pojedinec]

Btw, it's rare to see the many Cobra replicas here in Chi-town that don't have an FE.  I'd rather have an FE too as who beats on their street driven Cobra that hard?

I'm in the "stroker 390 or high strung 289" crowd.  Judging by previous posts when the original poster, he is somewhat fixated on the 600+hp number..... so that is what that is.

[427HISS]

Put a small block Chevy in it or LS Chevy in it if yer worried about dollars to horse power , otherwise build a FE , 600 hp is pretty easy to achieve

DREW !  lol....
Sorry, brain fart.

No Chevy bud.

But, the link to the website has some nice engines, the Cobra is just one, and it's an FE.  Which is what I'd prefer, 2nd a 385 series.
Cobra Kit Car 427 FE SPECIAL
Actual 430"  stroker 390 - 4.070" bore x 4.125" stroke
  425 to 580 horsepower; depending upon camshaft, pistons & intake selected
 - includes:
 1. Production FE 360 / 390 block;  cleaned, checked for cracks and machined
 2. SCAT 4.125" stroker crankshaft
 3. Forged 4340 steel rods;  6.700" length
 4. Race-Tech custom FORGED pistons; 10.8/1 or 9.9/1 compression
 5. Edelbrock (or equivilent) Aluminum cylinder heads
 6. Aluminum high-rise Edelbrock 2-plane or single plane intake manifold
 7. Canton or Milodon 7 quart oil pan
 8. Melling HV oil pump
 9.  Sheet Metal * Valve Covers
10. Ductile Iron (not cast iron) dampner
11. CUSTOM, (per application), Hydraulic Lifter Camshaft**
$ 7,495.00 + shipping
THIS price requires using your good block & front cover as core prices will vary but, we can supply them if you wish.
* Different Valve Covers Available at additional charge, Upon Request
** Hydraulic roller camshaft & valve train available at additional charge

[cjshaker]

If the goal is over 500 horsepower, forget a small block. Unless you go with an aftermarket block, they simply won't hold up. Blocks start splitting at 500hp, although I think you can squeeze a bit more out of the Windsor for the simple fact that there are more available cubes. If you start talking about aftermarket blocks, then the "budget" goes out the window.

The biggest bang for the buck is probably the 385 series engine, but I'd rather have a stroked 390 than the 460 based. The Lima engine fits the cars heritage about as well as a big block chevy engine. It's just 'wrong' in my book, and they don't look right in the car. But it's your car, and if budget is a big concern and you just want to enjoy the car, maybe a Lima based engine is your best choice. Just don't open the hood for anyone

I'll forgive Ross and Mr. Philpott for the LS comment....this time

[427HISS]

Put it this way.  I have a 427W Dart aluminum shortblock in my garage awaiting heads , and at 71 years young, I can pick up the shortblock off a dolly and sit it on a cart by myself.  If I were to use an aluminum inline head like the AFR 225, Super Victor, and my Aviad aluminum oil pan, it is going to weigh less than a 289 from the time period.  However, in a Cobra, the FE just looks right and with anything else but a SOHC, or Boss 429, most folks will just walk on by.  Joe-JDC

I do agree, and almost everywhere I go, people ask if the engine is a 427 or 428, and they always say something great.
There are some wicked,....351 based engines being built, like the 427 putting out over 500 HP, but I like the big blocks.
I built my first car at 17 years old. 76' Pro-Street (remember those years) with a 468 RATT, 13:1 compression ran Av Gas, Muncie Rock Crusher, Ford 9" etc.

If I had the money in hand, I'd get the 427 side oiler block and  heads from BBM. Their an absolute work of art. 

Do you have any vids of your 427w ?

Theres one vid of a Cobra that some say, the motor is a 358 NASCAR engine. It may or may not, but it sounds nasty.

[427HISS]

I'm with Falcon. A all iron 351W weighs 510, a number generally accepted by many.  Aluminum heads, intake and w/pump gets you approx. 460 lbs. It looks just like the original 289 based Cobra engine to boot.

Heck, even some of the driving greats of the era preferred the 289 version over the 427FE. But....they were racing these things on twisty tracks here and on European F.I.A. tracks where cornering speed and balance were more important than pure hp.

Btw, it's rare to see the many Cobra replicas here in Chi-town that don't have an FE.  I'd rather have an FE too as who beats on their street driven Cobra that hard?

I
"I'd rather have an FE too as who beats on their street driven Cobra that hard?"
"

Gotta tell ya bud, being a 360/410 retired dirt winged sprint car racer, I have speed and hell power in my blood, so I'm always,....on the throttle in my
Cobra !  Thats what their for. I never,...trailer mine either, like a lot do.

The Kirkham "slabside" ,...webbers on top of the 289 is awesome !   

[427HISS]

Here's some vids. First is two friends of mine driving my Cobra home from the GoogGuys Show in Kansas. I felt too bad to drive.
It's where I won Best Ford Muscle.

Sorry, I did not edit the length of these......

First time out after winter. Lashed the valves, add new fuel and out for the last drive after selling the engine.   

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h3XsqHrtTPY

These were made for the buyer in New York, of my 428FE I sold to pay medical bills.  Wanted to make sure he knew what he was getting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7NtshzoeV6M

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TVT7eP8H6rw

A slow ramp up to 125mph.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WZAK4ddf1x4

[427HISS]

If the goal is over 500 horsepower, forget a small block. Unless you go with an aftermarket block, they simply won't hold up. Blocks start splitting at 500hp, although I think you can squeeze a bit more out of the Windsor for the simple fact that there are more available cubes. If you start talking about aftermarket blocks, then the "budget" goes out the window.

The biggest bang for the buck is probably the 385 series engine, but I'd rather have a stroked 390 than the 460 based. The Lima engine fits the cars heritage about as well as a big block chevy engine. It's just 'wrong' in my book, and they don't look right in the car. But it's your car, and if budget is a big concern and you just want to enjoy the car, maybe a Lima based engine is your best choice. Just don't open the hood for anyone

I'll forgive Ross and Mr. Philpott for the LS comment....this time

Yes, and the big cube mouse engines have to work real hard for power, vs a big cube big block.

Right,...LS boyz,.....

[Barry_R]

Just spectating...

But need to make note that the "427" 4.125 stroker 390 referenced will not make 580 HP in anybody's dreams.

Unless somebody starts in on carving up & porting those heads you'll be closer to 450 - maybe 475

[427HISS]

Hi Barry, those numbers won't do.

Here' where I pasted it from.

http://www.rmcompetition.com/ford-.html

[Barry_R]

Randall knows better than that...

[427HISS]

Can you post a link to your price's of complete and short block FE's ?

[Barry_R]

Those discussions are best held in private emails or PMs out of respect to the other builders who participate in this forum.

[427HISS]

Agreed. Mail sent.

[My427stang]

I'll forgive Ross and Mr. Philpott for the LS comment....this time

LOL, I got much less of a response than I expected!  It was mostly tongue in cheek, but they do run well.

As far as the original question, if it's big block or nothing, 600 out of a 385 series is about as easy as falling out of bed.   I do agree though, if on a budget, and depending on how much of the car is still set up for an FE, it could as cheap and real fast with a 445.  Heck my noisy 445 hauls my 4x4 like its a hot rod, It'd be real happy 1700 lbs less behind it!

[BattlestarGalactic]

I'd say if you don't go FE, a stroker 351 is a much better alternative then a boat anchor 460.  Those things are just TOO heavy.
My plain vanilla 462 with a flat tappet cam and hand ported heads makes 625hp at 6500 rpm.  So it is not hard to make 600 hp with a much better set of heads and roller cam(I just don't have the money for all that).  My ol dump truck motor does just fine. 

Cost wise, the crank/rods/pistons are that much different in cost no matter what motor you use.  They have really come down in the last few years.  I don't have anything close to $18K in my motor.

[machoneman]

Here's Ford's own 460 CID stroker from the still pretty new Boss 351, big-bore block, at 575 hp, for $10.5 grand.


http://www.cjponyparts.com/ford-racing-crate-engine-460-cid-boss-351-block-575-hp-front-sump/p/M6007Z460FFT/

[427HISS]

Although the Boss is a radical engine, just can't put one between my Cobra's  frame rails.  Mustang etc, yes....
Would still need an intake and carb.

An FE would be the easiest. I have brand new parts,...steel bellhousing, billet flywheel, dual disk clutch and motor mounts.
On my first 428 FE, I used the Edelbrock RPM manifold, on the rebuild, I went with the taller airgap and I had to mill down the car surface a bit, so it wouldn't touch the hood. There was no loss of power.

I don't know for sure if the 460 would fit under the hood. I know theres quite of 460's in Cobra's, but some have a taller hood scoop than mine.
I have my Cobra pretty low, so if I made new motor mounts the pan may be too,....low. I need to measure ans see.

For some reason, (maybe because I'm a power freak)     I can't get past the power, especially torque down low, of the 460. The low RPM T/Q
 is amazing.

This is just from one noted builder,.....as example only. Was easy and able to post dyno graph.



 460 block.

466 BBF Budget Blueprinted

Horsepower: 600 hp

Torque: 550 ft/lbs

Block: Fully Machined Production Block

Crankshaft: Eagle Cast Steel

Stroke: 3.850"

Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller

Lifters: Hydraulic Roller

Cylinder Heads: Edelbrock Performer RPM

Max RPM: 6200

Price: $9,895.00
-------------------------
514 BBF Street Crate

Horsepower: 700 hp

Torque: 650 ft/lbs

Block: Fully Machined Production Block

Crankshaft: Eagle Cast Steel

Stroke: 4.140"

Connecting Rods: Scat H-Beam 6.800"

Pistons: Diamond Forged

Timing Chain: Ford Motorsport Double Roller

Camshaft: Comp Cams Custom Hydraulic Roller

Lifters: Hydraulic Roller

Cylinder Heads: Edelbrock Performer RPM CNC

Valves: Ferrea 2.245/1.745

Rocker Arms: Scorpion Roller

Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM Port Matched

$12,600

[fekbmax]

Such blasphemy on this awesome FE forum...   LoL

[427HISS]

Meaning the dyno sheet ?

[427HISS]

$10,000

Professionall rebuilt by top FE guru Rob McQuarie with best of everything!

Brand new, never unwrapped or fired!


Block - 1972 Ford 427 Service Block, Cross-Bolted

- Torque plate honed .030", pressure tested and magnafluxed.
- CNC square decked to 10.153"
- ARP bottom-end stud kit
- Align honed mains, rear cap machined for pan clearance to studs
- Completely deburred
- Oil passages opened up and matched to oil filter mount, all FE oiling mods done
- ARP Head stud kit
- All new top-shelf parts and fasteners


Crank - Ford Forged $, Stock 3.78" stroke

- Professionally added threaded plugs in place of cup plugs
- Ground and polished 20/20


Connecting Rods - Crower Billet, Stock FE length

- These are super nice rods - cost over $2000.00


Pistons - Custom Diamond Flat Tops with valve reliefs

- Suitable for premium pump gas with aluminum Edelbrock or Blue Thunder heads (roughly 9.5: to 10.5:1 depending on chamber cc and gasket)


Cam - Custom Crower Mechanical Roller

- Split duration 273/290 with .646/.649 lift, 108 degree lobe separation

Lifters - Crower Severe Duty Roller

- Pressure pin oiling for reliable street service

Oil Pump - Blueprinted Melling High Volume

- ARP Oil Pump Drive Shaft

Timing Chain Set - Rollmaster


Engine Assembly

- Blueprinted all critical dimensions
- Balanced rotating assembly
- Cam degreed straight up
- Assembly lubed and carefully wrapped


Includes Roll-Away Engine Stand Dolly



Have receipts for over $5,100 spent on machine work, pistons, cam, assembly work, etc.

An additional $2,000 spent on the Crower billet rods.


I purchased this engine from a guy who bought it new, from a local So Cal Ford dealership in the mid 1970's to put it in a show car. After this show car was built, the owner put less than 100 miles on the car. He then pulled this engine out of the show car and put it in storage after selling the car. His plans were to build another car and put this engine in it. This never happened. I bought this engine in the mid 1990's and stored it until I sent it to Rob McQuarie to get it built. When I got my engine back my plans for what car to put it has changed.

What you are looking at is a brand new 427 Sideoiler short block.

[Joe-JDC]

Not a solicitation, but I have a 651HP 460 Motorsports engine complete with ported aluminum heads, Victor, Dominator, MSD, Canton, solid lifter camshaft, everything new, even ARP bolts, and water pump housing.   It cost me ~$8500.00 to build.  The customer backed out after I had it on the stand.  A 460 can be built to make good power at a reasonable cost.  Joe-JDC

[427HISS]

PM sent.

Can't beleive people backing out of a deal !   

Is that a solid roller cam  (-say roller please) lol.....

Do you have dyno sheet ?

When was it built ?

What's the bore, stroke and cam specs ?

Can you post or send me some photo's ?

Thanks
Kevin

[Tommy-T]

Are you in SoCal?

If you are I can make you a smoke'n deal on a 460 that dyno'd at 614HP.

It has dyno time only on it. Yes, I have the sheet.

D1 block
Sealed Power flat top pistons and rings
Comp roller 248@.050
Edelbrock Victor heads
Victor intake
DUI ignition

Engine made 13 inches of vacuum at idle on the dyno. Very streetable, although the compression is a bit high at 12:1

Email me at gearhead427@verizon.net or call (626)460-8314 daytime or (661)722-3184

Motivated to sell at less than the cost of the parts.

[427HISS]

Here a used Dove 4 bolt 460 block for sale.

$1,500

F/S D0VE-A 4 bolt main block - 460 Ford Forum

http://www.460ford.com/forum/41-auction-block/237778-f-s-d0ve-4-bolt-main-block.html

__________________

[427HISS]

Are you in SoCal?

If you are I can make you a smoke'n deal on a 460 that dyno'd at 614HP.

It has dyno time only on it. Yes, I have the sheet.

D1 block
Sealed Power flat top pistons and rings
Comp roller 248@.050
Edelbrock Victor heads
Victor intake
DUI ignition

Engine made 13 inches of vacuum at idle on the dyno. Very streetable, although the compression is a bit high at 12:1

Email me at gearhead427@verizon.net or call (626)460-8314 daytime or (661)722-3184

Motivated to sell at less than the cost of the parts.

Nope, I'm in Nebraska, Husker territory. 

That's pretty high of compression. Even with a thicker head gasket ?
Unless I use our methonal from the sprint car. lol....

I'll call you.
Kevin

[427HISS]

If using E-85 fuel, how high of compression can be used ?

I've read guys using up to 14:1., several at 12:1
Don't think I would but,......?

[My427stang]

Are you in SoCal?

If you are I can make you a smoke'n deal on a 460 that dyno'd at 614HP.

It has dyno time only on it. Yes, I have the sheet.

D1 block
Sealed Power flat top pistons and rings
Comp roller 248@.050
Edelbrock Victor heads
Victor intake
DUI ignition

Engine made 13 inches of vacuum at idle on the dyno. Very streetable, although the compression is a bit high at 12:1

Email me at gearhead427@verizon.net or call (626)460-8314 daytime or (661)722-3184

Motivated to sell at less than the cost of the parts.

Nope, I'm in Nebraska, Husker territory. 

That's pretty high of compression. Even with a thicker head gasket ?
Unless I use our methonal from the sprint car. lol....

I'll call you.
Kevin

Where in NE?  Papillion here

[Falcon67]

Put a small block Chevy in it or LS Chevy in it if yer worried about dollars to horse power , otherwise build a FE , 600 hp is pretty easy to achieve

Slooowly I turn...step by step...inch by inch...

I forgot to include the link to the weight table I have - sourced from Ford docs. 

http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/FordWeightDetail.html

Joe, that's a hella good deal even at the all in price. 

[427HISS]

Are you in SoCal?

If you are I can make you a smoke'n deal on a 460 that dyno'd at 614HP.

It has dyno time only on it. Yes, I have the sheet.

D1 block
Sealed Power flat top pistons and rings
Comp roller 248@.050
Edelbrock Victor heads
Victor intake
DUI ignition

Engine made 13 inches of vacuum at idle on the dyno. Very streetable, although the compression is a bit high at 12:1

Email me at gearhead427@verizon.net or call (626)460-8314 daytime or (661)722-3184

Motivated to sell at less than the cost of the parts.

Nope, I'm in Nebraska, Husker territory. 

That's pretty high of compression. Even with a thicker head gasket ?
Unless I use our methonal from the sprint car. lol....

I'll call you.
Kevin

Where in NE?  Papillion here

Eagle, 10 miles east of Lincoln.
Are you ok from the tornado ?

[My427stang]

No issues for me or my stuff, I am an active duty USAF officer, but I live 12 miles from the base or so,  the base got beat up badly.

Nobody hurt and non of our guys lost anything significant, so real lucky

[427HISS]

Great to hear.

[427HISS]

Ad on Hemmings.

11,750.00  OBO
Two 427 ford fe crossbolt center oilers great for Thunderbolt or Shelby Cobra build.

https://www.hemmings.com/parts/item/Engine/other/Two-427-ford-fe-crossbolt-center-oilersgreat-for-Thunderbolt-or-Shelby-Cobra-build/12539.html

Item Description:

Category: Engine

SubCategory: other

1 engine stock removed from 1963 1/2 Galaxie over 40 yrs ago sitting in garage,stuck from sitting, needs to be taken apart and freshened up, has original carbs. The other one is disassembled down to the short block with heads removed,2 x4 intake, 30 over balanced, old hot rod engine that was in Porsche, that could not handle the brute force of these old fe dual quads and tore the car apart. no carbs needs to be taken apart and freshened up .Been sitting, in garage about same time. remote oil filter , new aftermarket vintage cal custon valve cover set, new dual point dist. 427 logo dual quad magnesium air filter asm original ? no part number , factory cast iron headers excellent shape, misc parts want to sell complete collection if possible $11.750.00 call 860-653-2438 lets make a deal

Applications:

1963 - 1963 Ford

[chilly460]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1498597619/last-1498597619/View+thread

[TimeWarpF100]

I have a long story, but will keep it short unless you want the long.

I built a 427 Cobra years ago, and built a 500 HP at the crank 428 FE.
I've always wanted a 427 side oiler, but they were very expensive and getting at 600 HP, was even more expensive.
After winning a Best Of Class 62' to 67' trophy at a Good Guys Car Show at the Kansas Motor Speedway, two editors
wanted my Cobra in their magazines. At the time, we were still racing 360 winged dirt sprint cars and always had great sponsorships.
I wanted to try and build a side oiler mostly paid by sponsores, for advertising their company's products, and asked the editors to wait.

Well, my engine builder went bankrupted, and stole my money and all products. He also stole my "spirit for life".
Several years later I'm trying again. Because of my and my wifes bad health, and our loss of great surance, we can't afford much of anything today.
We had to sell the 428FE and Tremec tranny to help pay for my MedFlight jet flight to the Mayo Clinic. 6k then 16k of Clinic's 26 day stay.

We're trying to save and build/buy a engine again.

For years, I thought the only engine I can put in my Cobra, is a 427 side oiler or 428, but because of cost, a 460 may,....be acceptable.   

I just can not, put a cheap purring kitty in a Cobra, but we want 600 HP/TQ this time. Being a sprint car racer, I need and can handle high power.
The problem is, reaching that goal is even more expensive than when we built the 428 years ago.

I prefer one of the newer aluminum or iron 427 side oiler blocks over a vintage, as their so much better built today, but cost is around 4k to 6k !

So, we are considering forgoing a FE, with a 385 series, 460/514ci.   
But, added to the cost, I'll need to trade or sell my new FE steel bellhousing, billet flywheel, clutch and, make/buy new headers for a 460. etc.

Buying 600 HP.....

427/482 side oiler is around $18,000 to $28,000

460/466ci 600 HP is around $8,995 (complete)

Ford 514  700 HP is around $12,600 (complete)

What's your thoughts, would you forgo a replica 427, 428 as original, or forget the nostalgia and go for the lower cost, larger HP/-TQ of a 514ci ?
Kevin

How about a new never fired 482? 14,500 pan to carbs. Only items not new is the Original 427 Balancer and the timing cover/pointer. And also the CJ Valve Covers. Even the tunnel wedge was NOS. 10.5 comp, CNC Edel heads, Tunnel wedge with Quick Fuel 750's, Genesis Block, all good parts. Solid Street Roller Cam. Machine work done by Barry R..  Might be just shy of 600 hp with current roller but 600 should not be a issue with larger cam. One thing you will not need to be worried about with this one is low end TORQUE>

[Drew Pojedinec]

^best deal you'll get
Just do it.

[427HISS]

Drew, wish I could but $14,500 is too much for me.  Hell of a motor though.   

What are the cam specs ?

Heads and valvetrain ?

Rotating assemby etc ?

[427HISS]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1498597619/last-1498597619/View+thread

We spoke on the phone and he and the engine are great, a little on on compression. Just too high of cost, again......

[scott foxwell]

Haven't read the entire thread and I'm sure it's been mentioned but a big ci Windsor would get you your 600hp goal real easy on pump gas with hyd roller. Since you're a racer I can guarantee that you will not be happy with a 385 series in your Cobra.

[427HISS]

Hi Scott, although the 351 based engine is powerful, I need a big block. If I had a replica version of the early years of the Cobra, I would like a 351/427cid small block, mines the 66 427 body style.

Why wouldn't I be happy with a  385 series 460/545 cid 600 to 700 HP ?

[427HISS]

Ok, if you guys like to "Bench Race" like I do, lets figure out my wants, needs and budjet for my 427 Cobra.
Different combinations to best suit a patcular engine.

What to do about blocks, heads, valvetrains, rotating assembly's, products, manufactures, specs and where the best prices can be found.

I'd much rather,....have a powerhouse low rpm torque monster FE, for street fun, yet high rpm HP for some, track racing.
Would like to rev over 6,000 rpm. With the light weight Cobra, it suprised me just how fast the rpm's come up to 5,000 (+)
A lot of it is setting up the suspention for traction. I used a set of electronic scales to get all four corners equal in weight and almost 50/50 front to back, even with a hipo weight FE. With street slicks it launches hard, yet not dumping the clutch and using 2nd gear.

Although I need a lot of power, to a point, I need some decent gas milage, I don't want a 8 mpg like I had with my Pro-Street Camaro either. lol

Being a sprint car racer, I need it to fricken rock & roll. I can't express this point enough,..ROCK & ROLL guys !  (like Van Halen) lol
To each it's own, but that's what a Cobra is all about. Hearing a smooth kitty purrrrr,.....in Cobra's I've seen is silly, plus using comfortable high back seats and stereo's ?   Come on ! Lol....

So to start off, let's talk about a block. 1st I'd like a side oiler, 2nd is a 428FE, third a 390, 4th is a 385/460.

Pro's & Con's- (I could talk all day on this point, but will get you thoughts)

FE-

PRO'S

Original to the later years of Cobra's.
Blocks look great.
Sound.
Praises from people. (yes, it matters, sorry)

CON'S-

COST !
If you want to change the intake, you must remove the heads. Pain in the ass !)

Other than that, can't think of more.

385 series-

PRO'S-

Huge power capable. 600 and even 700 HP/TQ is easy.

I'm excited about all the full range power of power of say a 460/545 (other cid's) and lower cost !)
The torque down low is incredable.

Low cost,.... even with steel crank, pistons and good aluminum heads.

I have a brand new steel scatter shield, bullet flywheel and two disk clutch.

CON'S-

Not original to the Cobra's.

Although from the charts reading the FE and 460 are equal measurments, except the 460 is 2 inchs longer, but that dooesn't matter.
I'm concernd about the 460 being too tall for under the hood. I'm getting mixed results from Cobra owners. I looked at some Cobras on youtube that have 460's, their hood scoup's are taller than most Cobra's.

I may,.....have to cut out the scoop and build/buy a taller one, do a bunch of body work on and under the hood, sand the hood and repaint the body color and the custom mixed white with added pearl paint of the stripes, from the nose of the body, the hood to the windshield. Not only a lot of time because of my bad health, and the expense.

Would need to sell the FE parts I have, for 460 parts. (shield, flywheel clutch) etc.

So is the lower cost and huge power worth all the time, money and work to the hood worth it ?
(If,....iit needs it)

With there was a plastic 460 engine to mock up the engine bay !














'

[thatdarncat]

They do make a plastic 460 for mock-up. I'll warn you, it isn't cheap. Link:

http://www.payr.com/Big-Block_c16.htm

Price through Summit is a little less.

[427HISS]

Lol,...if I were a hot rod builder, maybe,.?.....I'd spend 500 bucks on the block, plus the heads, valve covers,, dampner, fan, oil filter, carb, etc.....
Ya know, for all the hot rods, street rods, resto mods, daily drivers, movie cars  I'd be mocking up with 460's.  Then I may break even on the cost.   

[scott foxwell]

Hi Scott, although the 351 based engine is powerful, I need a big block. If I had a replica version of the early years of the Cobra, I would like a 351/427cid small block, mines the 66 427 body style.

Why wouldn't I be happy with a  385 series 460/545 cid 600 to 700 HP ?

Because they handle like crap and look like ass in a Cobra. Other than that, they're fine. (The looks part is just my never to be humble opinion )
Seriously, though...if you're willing to stick a 460 in a Cobra, then there's no sense in the "big block" vs "small block" argument based on body style. Trust me, if Carol Shelby had a big inch Windsor in his day, the FE would have never been in a Cobra. They were ill handling and very hard to drive. Their only saving grace was one of the best braking performances on the track. Drag race to the corner, then hang on for dear life!
I don't know which replica you have but trust me, stuffing a 385 series in even the best ones isn't going to be fun to drive other than a straight line. Very few FE big block cars handle very well at all. About the best handling one I ever drove was the Arntz/Butler but it was far from a purist replica with the engine set back 6".

[427HISS]

In this thread I won't get into what makes a Cobra and what doesn't, as that can go on & on & on. I just don't want a small block.
If I was going to road race mine quite a bit, I would have built it differently, with a tube chassis, high rpm small block, 4-speed and a IRS, but since I'm not, and wanted a tough strong driver for the street/strip, I'm happy with my car and they way I built it.

[427HISS]

TimewarpF100, sent you a PM.
Thanks.

[427HISS]

Anyone want to help build ?

[TimeWarpF100]

TimewarpF100, sent you a PM.
Thanks.

Had not signed in for a few days. PM sent

[427HISS]

Jayb, sent a PM.

[427HISS]

(only a short block for 10k)

quote author=427HISS link=topic=5005.msg52905#msg52905 date=1498005691]
$10,000

Professionall rebuilt by top FE guru Rob McQuarie with best of everything!

Brand new, never unwrapped or fired!


Block - 1972 Ford 427 Service Block, Cross-Bolted

- Torque plate honed .030", pressure tested and magnafluxed.
- CNC square decked to 10.153"
- ARP bottom-end stud kit
- Align honed mains, rear cap machined for pan clearance to studs
- Completely deburred
- Oil passages opened up and matched to oil filter mount, all FE oiling mods done
- ARP Head stud kit
- All new top-shelf parts and fasteners


Crank - Ford Forged $, Stock 3.78" stroke

- Professionally added threaded plugs in place of cup plugs
- Ground and polished 20/20


Connecting Rods - Crower Billet, Stock FE length

- These are super nice rods - cost over $2000.00


Pistons - Custom Diamond Flat Tops with valve reliefs

- Suitable for premium pump gas with aluminum Edelbrock or Blue Thunder heads (roughly 9.5: to 10.5:1 depending on chamber cc and gasket)


Cam - Custom Crower Mechanical Roller

- Split duration 273/290 with .646/.649 lift, 108 degree lobe separation

Lifters - Crower Severe Duty Roller

- Pressure pin oiling for reliable street service

Oil Pump - Blueprinted Melling High Volume

- ARP Oil Pump Drive Shaft

Timing Chain Set - Rollmaster


Engine Assembly

- Blueprinted all critical dimensions
- Balanced rotating assembly
- Cam degreed straight up
- Assembly lubed and carefully wrapped


Includes Roll-Away Engine Stand Dolly



Have receipts for over $5,100 spent on machine work, pistons, cam, assembly work, etc.

An additional $2,000 spent on the Crower billet rods.


I purchased this engine from a guy who bought it new, from a local So Cal Ford dealership in the mid 1970's to put it in a show car. After this show car was built, the owner put less than 100 miles on the car. He then pulled this engine out of the show car and put it in storage after selling the car. His plans were to build another car and put this engine in it. This never happened. I bought this engine in the mid 1990's and stored it until I sent it to Rob McQuarie to get it built. When I got my engine back my plans for what car to put it has changed.

What you are looking at is a brand new 427 Sideoiler short block.
[/quote]

[TimeWarpF100]

Over 30 days since I first offered my 482.
Very well could change my mind soon...
We have emailed and spoke a bunch.
Cannot wait forever for a answer.
Especially after adding up what it would cost to build another.
Not to mention how long it would take to round up all the parts.
If I sold the 482 I was going to purchase
Another more powerful Ford engine. That deal
Will not be around much longer.

[jayb]

Guys, lets not discuss sales of parts on this forum.  You can communicate via PMs, or move to the classifieds.  Thanks, Jay

[427HISS]

Over 30 days since I first offered my 482.
Very well could change my mind soon...
We have emailed and spoke a bunch.
Cannot wait forever for a answer.
Especially after adding up what it would cost to build another.
Not to mention how long it would take to round up all the parts.
If I sold the 482 I was going to purchase
Another more powerful Ford engine. That deal
Will not be around much longer.

With all due respect, one of the first things I asked you was if you were in a hurry to sell, and you replied no.
We spoke on the phone, email's and PM's. I had fun talking about engines, cars etc,  Like I mentioned several times my friend, if I can come up with the funds, I fully intend to purchase yours. Out of a handful of engines to choose from, yours is at #1, not only because it is closer to what I want & need (except no bling) lol,....but also because of your great personality. If I get along with any seller (even though we haven't met in person) means alot !

Remember bud, the last time I bought a engine sight unseen, I lost 10k, and more important, he stole my,... "spirit for life". So trusting you, is a very good feeling! 

Like I said, if you have a possible buyer please let me know, if I can not come up with all the funds, feel free to sell it. I would not disrespect you !
That's not me. 

[427HISS]

I have decided that only a FE will go between my crotch, nothing else !        

Hoping TimwWarpF100's engine 

[427HISS]

Hey everyone, exciting news !!! (for me and my wife anyway) lol

Nine years after some bad health and my engine builder steeling my Genesis 427 side oiler block, all parts and camcorder, I'm back being a FE gearhead. The last few months I've researched what I want to do with a small budget. I found a new 428FE built by Larry Dove ! It has all their manufactured parts, except the block. One thing I will change is a bigger cam. You would not belive the cost !

Their ad-

"Big block ford 428 ci - $6500"

Completely built up 428 cubic inch engine. Can be put on a engine stand and test ran to show that it works, had dove manufacturing high performance heads, intake, and rocker arms. This motor was built for power and should make about 500 horsepower easily. Call. End quote.
I also got a hell of and deal with a BORLA/TWM 8 stack fuel injection system with the FAST computer. Includes everything but the fuel lines. Is's also polished ! The only thing I will change is to paint the TB's my body color, blue.

Like a young man would say, "I'm STOKED" !!! lol..........(I'm 55)
I'm Rejoiced, my spirit for life is,... BACK !

Kevin & Patty
(can't wait to get driving her again)


I asked for a spec sheet, and this is what they sent me. (not exactly what I wanted but,....) lol

428 Ford F.E. + .030 Internally balanced

Speed Pro forged Pistons

Sealed Power File Fit Moly Rings

Eagle H-Beam Connecting Rods

Melling High Pressure/High Volume Oil Pump

Dove Heavy Duty Oil Pump Drive

Dove C.J. Aluminum Heads

Stainless Steel Valves

Heavy Duty Retainers & Locks

Dove Rocker Arm Assembly w/ Heavy Duty Shafts

Dove Tunnel Wedge Intake

Cobra Mustang Low Profile Oil Pan

Dove Aluminum Water Pump

$6,500 bank check or money order.

Columbia Station, OH 44028

Lawrence A. Dove

Dove Manufacturing, Inc.

Dove Tool, Inc.

Dove Bookkeeping Service, Inc.

[fekbmax]

I see (and smell) plenty of burned rubber in your future..
Good luck

[cjshaker]

Congrats! I hope it turns out that everything is good with the engine. Sounds like some nice parts were used on that build.

Dove just recently went completely out of business. Both of them were too old to continue and the business was not able to be salvaged due to too much debt. Kind of a bummer considering how long they've been supporting the FE.

[fekbmax]

 i suspect more and more of there left overs will pop up on the Dove ebay .

[427HISS]

I see (and smell) plenty of burned rubber in your future..
Good luck

Lol,...funny sh** !

Ya, it's sad that after so many years of hard work, skill and knowledge for the FE world, that they've gone under.
Hope their all proud of themselves !

But, he says he's ready to retire, so that's great.

[427HISS]

I still.....don't understand why I bought it so low ?
One very similar is on ebay for &14,500, and Larry is selling it.

Sent the check today, and I'm stoked with it and the stack injection !
I've missed driving the Cobra, smelling, and hearing her.   
It's gonna be a long,....winter, but at least I can take my time vs get her going quickly just to drive.

[427HISS]

Here's his ad on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/172201766570?_trksid=p2045573.m570.l5999&_trkparms=gh1g%3DI172201766570.N36.S2.R2.TR8

[Drew Pojedinec]

I'm curious how dove gets almost 600hp from a 270s cam in a 428?  Either way, good luck with the new engine, hope everything goes smoothly

[427HISS]

The link above is not the one I bought, but similar.

Mine is 500 HP.

The 600 in my heading is what I wanted, before I bought this Dove motor. But for the price, I had to jump on it.

[cammerfe]

Jim Dove has had a series of strokes and has been in and out of the hospital and nursing homes several times. During this period, the business went down hill to such an extent that it was no longer viable. The most appropriate comments would be to wish him well. The FE business, as it exists today is based, to a significant extent, on his vision and work.

KS