600 HP FE $18k VS 600 HP 460/514 $13k ?

[427HISS]

I have a long story, but will keep it short unless you want the long.

I built a 427 Cobra years ago, and built a 500 HP at the crank 428 FE.
I've always wanted a 427 side oiler, but they were very expensive and getting at 600 HP, was even more expensive.
After winning a Best Of Class 62' to 67' trophy at a Good Guys Car Show at the Kansas Motor Speedway, two editors
wanted my Cobra in their magazines. At the time, we were still racing 360 winged dirt sprint cars and always had great sponsorships.
I wanted to try and build a side oiler mostly paid by sponsores, for advertising their company's products, and asked the editors to wait.

Well, my engine builder went bankrupted, and stole my money and all products. He also stole my "spirit for life".
Several years later I'm trying again. Because of my and my wifes bad health, and our loss of great surance, we can't afford much of anything today.
We had to sell the 428FE and Tremec tranny to help pay for my MedFlight jet flight to the Mayo Clinic. 6k then 16k of Clinic's 26 day stay.

We're trying to save and build/buy a engine again.

For years, I thought the only engine I can put in my Cobra, is a 427 side oiler or 428, but because of cost, a 460 may,....be acceptable.   

I just can not, put a cheap purring kitty in a Cobra, but we want 600 HP/TQ this time. Being a sprint car racer, I need and can handle high power.
The problem is, reaching that goal is even more expensive than when we built the 428 years ago.

I prefer one of the newer aluminum or iron 427 side oiler blocks over a vintage, as their so much better built today, but cost is around 4k to 6k !

So, we are considering forgoing a FE, with a 385 series, 460/514ci.   
But, added to the cost, I'll need to trade or sell my new FE steel bellhousing, billet flywheel, clutch and, make/buy new headers for a 460. etc.

Buying 600 HP.....

427/482 side oiler is around $18,000 to $28,000

460/466ci 600 HP is around $8,995 (complete)

Ford 514  700 HP is around $12,600 (complete)

What's your thoughts, would you forgo a replica 427, 428 as original, or forget the nostalgia and go for the lower cost, larger HP/-TQ of a 514ci ?
Kevin

[Drew Pojedinec]

If going 460 based, ignore the 514 crate engine.
Just about anyone can take a D9 block, toss (just about any) heads on it, use a 4.5 inch crank stroke and make 600hp without any issue whatsoever.  At 545ci you could do it with stock heads if you wanted.... tho afr or scj would easier no doubt.  Wouldn't even need a wild cam.

Drop Scotty at Reincarnation a line....
or hit up Randy:  http://www.rmcompetition.com/ford-.html

[steinauge]

I believe I would build a big FE stroker for a Cobra just because that is what belongs in it.If you can do most of the work yourself I would think you should be able to come pretty close to your target power number for 7-8 grand. Certainly the 460 is a more modern engine but so is an LS----

[427HISS]

If going 460 based, ignore the 514 crate engine.
Just about anyone can take a D9 block, toss (just about any) heads on it, use a 4.5 inch crank stroke and make 600hp without any issue whatsoever.  At 545ci you could do it with stock heads if you wanted.... tho afr or scj would easier no doubt.  Wouldn't even need a wild cam.

Drop Scotty at Reincarnation a line....
or hit up Randy:  http://www.rmcompetition.com/ford-.html

Are you Scotty or Randy ?

I clicked on the business and looked at the listed engines, and they are a nice package. I may change or add products.
Who should I contact ?

[427HISS]

If going 460 based, ignore the 514 crate engine.
Just about anyone can take a D9 block, toss (just about any) heads on it, use a 4.5 inch crank stroke and make 600hp without any issue whatsoever.  At 545ci you could do it with stock heads if you wanted.... tho afr or scj would easier no doubt.  Wouldn't even need a wild cam.


Drew, I agree and I don't like the idea of not having an FE, just depends on pricing and HP/TQ. I just know how to get 600 HP out of a 428FE because of the cost and thin bores ?

 But, that way I can use the  new FE products I have.

[Drew Pojedinec]

Are you Scotty or Randy ?

I clicked on the business and looked at the listed engines, and they are a nice package. I may change or add products.
Who should I contact ?

You do understand that my name is umm well, fairly well displayed, so I am neither scott, nor randy.

They are both 460 based experts.  Randy has those prices displayed which is why I included the link, just to give you an idea.
I don't know how to say this properly, I um, find Randy to be kinda rude.  Scotty owns Reincarnation in Washington state.  He has a website, but it's fairly short on info, this facebook page has a bunch of real world builds:  https://www.facebook.com/SMJRHP/?fref=ts
Still.... if you are wanting 600-700-800hp and money is an issue, it sure is nice to start off with a junkyard pickup truck engine that can be stroked to 545cubic inches.....  You can do a lot of things wrong and still hit your goals


Me personally?  in an AC cobra?  It'd have to be an FE or a 289 for me, just personal preference..... but this isn't my car, so whatever, do what you have to do.

[e philpott]

Put a small block Chevy in it or LS Chevy in it if yer worried about dollars to horse power , otherwise build a FE , 600 hp is pretty easy to achieve

[jayb]

$18K -$28K for a 427 stroker?  No way it is that expensive.  I built a 500 HP 390 stroker for $6K, and upgraded the heads, intake, and carb to get 550 HP for another $2K.  I have about $13K in my 720 HP 504" dyno mule, with an aftermarket sideoiler block, 4.375" stroker kit, ported Edelbrock heads, etc.  Sure, a 460 based engine will be cheaper, but it doesn't belong in your car.  FEs are going to be more expensive, but not as expensive as you are suggesting...

[My427stang]

So I promise I'd be the first guy to not care a lick about whether the FE is right for the car.  I like FEs, but big number power per dollar is not their strong suit.  They are durable, pretty to look at, sound nice, etc, but certainly expensive compared to others.

I'd also slap an LS (or hell an AMC 401 if that was the engine I wanted to play with)  in anything for the fun of it, but I have too many FE parts laying around and toys set up for them.  I'd just paint it blue to steer the whiners away LOL

That being said, the 460 makes a LOT of power, but it is going to be heavy over the nose compared to an FE, and real heavy compared to a 351W.  If you don't care about originality, a real stout 351W-based alum headed stroker can be built at your power levels too and might even handle.  I think it would be the cheapest way out, especially if you shopped around for some used parts and the bolt ons are much more readily available.

[machoneman]

if you want a really great handling Cobra, a stroker 351W is the way to go. Put another way, the 351W, aluminum or iron, then a aluminum FE (size to be determined) then a iron FE finally the heaviest, a 429-460. Track work or a great handling open road Cobra requires balance, as a lot of nose weight works against the car's best traits.

JMO!

[jayb]

How much does an iron block, aluminum head 351W engine weigh?  An FE in that configuration weighs just under 500 pounds.  I can't imagine that a small block is less than 375.  For the extra cubes you can get with the FE (read low and mid-range torque), a 100 pound penalty is not that much.

[Falcon67]

Spreadsheet I have from old Ford docs lists a 351W "2V" base engine assembly at 448 lbs.  Add lubrication system, cooling system and "valve train system" for a total of 518 lbs.  351C system at 527 lbs.  1964 427 "prototype" at 658 lbs, 460 at 644 lbs.  All except the 427 are from 1973 time period.  Of course once you throw on aluminum heads, intake, new internals, etc all that goes right out the window LOL.  A 289/302 would be easy 50~75 lbs under a 351W. 

I'd agree that the OP pricing is off.  IMHO a 351C is comparable to an FE in parts costs - decent heads run in the $1600~2500 range, quality engine kits $2000+.  Stock block work in the $600~1000 range these days.  With all the misc and some shopping you can stay under $6500 and make good power.  I've got about 5200ish in the dragster's 351C, making maybe 550HP is decent air.  (not the 5727 DA we had Saturday LOL)

You could squeeze a Ford Racing "Boss 302" big inch small block in there and make near you goal with the right cam and tune up.  Spray it Old Ford Blue, put some fancy 8 pot Inglese on top and nobody's the wiser.  But as we alllll knoooow, mo' power is easier with mo' displacement. 

http://jiminglese.com/weber5_007.htm

[My427stang]

How much does an iron block, aluminum head 351W engine weigh?  An FE in that configuration weighs just under 500 pounds.  I can't imagine that a small block is less than 375.  For the extra cubes you can get with the FE (read low and mid-range torque), a 100 pound penalty is not that much.

I can't verify accuracy, but it looks like they start 100 lbs heavier on this website

http://gasalley.thetumbleweeds.net/tech_archive/general/engine_weights.htm

I'd also expect that given a common rear bell housing location, that weight is ever so slightly shifted rearward with a W as well being a shorter engine

I was being a little snarky earlier and not very pro-FE, I am a true blue FE lover, but even if weight is the same, a stroker Windsor can be real cheap power.  The thing to remember is, intake, heads, rockers, cranks, pistons, rods, all cheaper and in higher production my more companies and more used parts makes it easy

Brent and I rap about this now and again, it's just cheap and easy with a W and they do well.  That being said, I go on record that I am not a W guy and in the cars I drive (not a Cobra) would likely go big 385 if I stopped going FEs, which with the new pile of parts I recently grabbed will be no time soon LOL

[Joe-JDC]

Put it this way.  I have a 427W Dart aluminum shortblock in my garage awaiting heads , and at 71 years young, I can pick up the shortblock off a dolly and sit it on a cart by myself.  If I were to use an aluminum inline head like the AFR 225, Super Victor, and my Aviad aluminum oil pan, it is going to weigh less than a 289 from the time period.  However, in a Cobra, the FE just looks right and with anything else but a SOHC, or Boss 429, most folks will just walk on by.  Joe-JDC

[427HISS]

Hey Jay,
If I could get an FE for 600 HP/TQ for that kind of loot, then I'd be very happy !
I'll get back on later today to chat further with you guys.
Gotta work on the sprint car for a race on Wed.