Can a Long shifter be downshifted?

[cjshaker]

I've been looking at a good shifter to use, like the Long or V-Gate style, inline shifters. Only thing is, it needs to be streetable, so being capable of downshifting is pretty much mandatory. Ive never used one but understand and have seen how a Long shifter works, but has anyone used one on the street? Just guessing, but it looks like with a good feel, one could raise the lever just enough to put it into the next lower gear. Comfort would be a secondary consideration over performance.

OR, is there a similar but better style I should be looking at. The V-Gate looks similar, but don't know much about them and have never seen one in use. YouTube videos and internet searches have produced sketchy results at best.

[Rory428]

I guess it all depends on how you define "streetable".  Back in the mid 70s, I installed a new Hurst Ram Rod inline shifter in my 273 4 speed 65 Plymouth Valiant. Hacking the massive hole in the floor did not concern me at the time, and for a while, having the seperate reverse lever, and having to pull up the trigger to get into 1rst gear was  kinda cool, but after a while, it all started getting to be a hassle. I have Long V Gate shifters on both Jericos, great for banging gears at the dragstrip, but I sure wouldn`t want to live with one in a street car. Maybe your tolerance level is higher than mine. I have a Hurst Super Shifter3 in my 59, still requires a pretty good sized crater in the trans tunnel, but not quite as massive as the V Gate.  But unless you are racing the car regularly, I really like a Hurst Comp/Plus, plus no floor chopping. Long story short, the downshifting of a Long shifter is doable, at least with a syncronized transmission, not so much with a race trans like a Jerico, or a crashbox.

[BattlestarGalactic]

Yes, a V gate is easily downshift-able.  Easier then a 5spd as you only have 2 gates to pick from(1-2, 3-4), unlike a 5spd with 3 gates(1-2, 3-4, 5-r and putting the lever in the right position to get what you want.  It comes with practice).  Even my Nash I can down shift easily, just have to learn the RPM/speed and you can shift it any time you like without crashing gears.  Faceplating makes it even easier then dog ring style.

Should have jumped in my car and taken a feel.  A Piston grip makes it even easier as you don't have to reach over the T handle and down to get to the trigger.  I ran a V gate in my '69 F100 for many, many moons.  I had to custom make the mounts to get it high enough in the truck to be comfortable and easy enough to reach.

The only downfall is the L A R G E hole you need to cut in the tunnel to get it to fit.  I'm talking 6" wide, 12" long? (Save the panel and you can reinstall it if you like).  The shifting mechanism is quite bulky.  The early Hurst Ram Rod was only the size of a std comp plus shifter and you didn't need to cut the floor to get it to fit.  They are long gone and now the only thing available is the larger Long style(Mr gasket made it back in the day, Hurst also copied it).  I have a Ramrod in the garage somewhere, it is beat to death/sloppy and would lock up constantly thus I took it out of my truck and got the Long style.  The Long style lasts a lifetime and you won't regret using it.

I do know that in a Mustang like yours it might take a custom mount to get it rolled back enough to NOT run your fist into the dash when going for 3rd.  My friend had issues originally and Hurst finally made him one that rolled the shifter back at an angle enough to eliminate the dash hitting issue(he used to get red knuckles).  Nothing catastrophic, but just an issue.  In a race car with no dash pad it would not be a problem.

I made my own handle for my car because I sit so far back.  Works flawless.

[cjshaker]

Thanks Rory and Larry, I appreciate the real world experience. I fretted about the hole cutting, but figured I could make it so the panel and console could be replaced if the shifter was removed. I used to worry about affecting the value, but honestly I don't care anymore. I'll never sell the car, and I'm pretty sure I wont care when I'm dead...lol The only thing I'd hate to lose is the console, which is a big part of the Mustang interior.

I can get a feel for shifting just about anything, from years of downshifting non-snychro trannies. I'm about the only person I know that can downshift an early Falcon or Comet into first while the car is still moving, and not clash gears. Getting a 'feel' for how far to pull the lever (on a pistol grip style) I imagine would not be a big issue, for the reasons Larry mentioned, fewer gates.

I wasn't aware of the dash issue. I have a friend who owns a well equipped machine shop, so fabricating a mounting plate to roll it back would also not be a huge issue.

So what would be the issue with dog ring style sliders? I'm looking into this for a Jerico transmission, which I think are all dog ring? Maybe their road race trannies are faceplated (?), but this is for a drag application (haven't really looked at their road race styles). I'm aware of several people who use a Jerico on the street, and as I understand, they've changed their dog rings with a slightly beveled back-cut so they don't pop out of gear when torque is released. Detailed info seems to be hard to find, so I'm sure I should talk to Jerico about this, but you guys are around this stuff and experience counts. I had considered going the faceplate route on a spare toploader I have, but I don't think the toploader would hold up to a new engine in the works. I've seen the issues Thor has had with his in the past, until he switched. I'm not a fan of R&R-ing the tranny on a regular basis.

In a nutshell, I'm basically looking to make it bulletproof for drag racing, yet still be able to drive it occasionally on the street and during Drag Week.

[BattlestarGalactic]

The old dog ring style(don't think Jerico uses that anymore) is just a bit touchier to feel and engagement.  Not a deal breaker in any manor.  The face plated stuff just kinda "sucks" itself into gear easier and it won't clash or burr up like the old dog ring style.  My old Nash was still dog ring'd on 1-2, but faceplated 3-5.  It really didn't matter I could shift it around the pits without a clunk or grind.  I suppose 15 yrs of driving the Mack kind gives me "the touch".  Pretty sure you will pick up on it and not be an issue.

[Rory428]

As far as I know, all Jericos are flat plated, like Larry said, once you pull it out of one gear, it practically jumps into the next.  I have never had either off my Jericos pop out of gear, under lifted throttle, although I believe that is the case with the clutchless models. I  was assuming you were talking about using a Long V Gate shifter with a Toploader, with a Jerico I would absolutely recommend a Long shifter. A face plated Toploader would work pretty good, but the Jerico does have several advantages, including much lighter weight, no drain plug pointing down to dig into your chest or make it tricky to use a trans jack, multiple shifter locations, and most helpful, a wide selection of easily changed ratios. With a  Toploader you are stuck with either a 2.32, 2.78, or a weak aftermarket 2.90 low gear ratio, Jerico offers at least as low as a 3.25 1rst gear. Most guys I know usually run between a 2.93 to 3.19 1rst. One thing to consider, is that the older DR4 Jerico is no longer sold new by Jerico, only the "upgraded" and much more expensive DR 4-4 revision. Hopefully Jerico will continue to offer parts for the older DR4, but a local guy needed a new input shaft for his Jerico, used in a FOX Mustang application (longer input shaft) in the 1 3/16"x18 MoPar Hemi spline with Ford pilot sizing, and Jerico said they no longer offered that piece. A few years ago, I bought that exact same input for my 85 Mustang. So if you find a used Jerico, that is a non FE application, I would confirm that Jerico can supply the parts to make it fit the FE application. Both my FE and SBF Jericos use the 18 spline MoPar inputs with the length and pilot top correct for each application. Not saying a GM or MoPar  application could not be modified to fit a FE, but its nice to have it be a direct fit. If you currently run a 1 3/8" big input Toploader, Jerico does (or did) offer that input and bearing retainer, so you could bolt it on, and retain your big input clutch fork and throw out bearing. With my MoPar spline input, I use a regular small input Ford throw out bearing and fork. Also, the Jerico uses a larger 32 spline Turbo 400 slip yoke spline on the output shaft.

[cjshaker]

I've been doing a little research, so I may be getting some terms mixed up. I'm still learning this stuff. I might have gotten the info on jumping out of gear mixed up with the Lenco transmissions, which I think is an issue with them. I also looked at them...briefly..lol  BIG price tag!

The strength and ratio choices are the main reasons for even considering the change. I was aware, from previous discussions, about the older DR-4 model getting difficult to find certain parts for, and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they become near impossible to find. I'm also aware of the different inputs, and the large FE input seems to be scarce, used anyway. I wasn't aware of the larger output though, but no issues changing that.

And yes, Larry, if I had been thinking straight, I would have checked out your set-up closer at the FERR. I might catch you at one of the UMTR races this year though. I've been thinking about joining just to have some fun with the car, and not having to deal with the headaches of sanctioned NHRA races.

Again, thanks for the input on downshifting a Long shifter.

[67gt350]

Doug, I have researched this for my 68 Mustang and found another couple issues to consider. Not only is the hole large to install a long shifter with any transmission there are not many options to seal around the shifter because of its size and shape, also it moves the shifter much closer to the driver than conventional shifters. This is good for control and precise shifts but it is a big change. I found some pictures I have attached of a very cool 68 that uses the transmission you are planning to use. He creatively used the factory carpet and bound the edges but I don't know if there is any other seal like a shift boot there. Hope this helps.

[e philpott]

I drive a Soft Loc clutched Verti-gate shifted on street that was "old schooled " grind a couple and leave a tooth on the synchro's initially when I bought the trans and then  I converted back to full synchro assembly shortly after to sort other problems first , I would like to get it Faceplated from Liberty one of these years soon and hit a few UMTRA races ... Like the others say it takes a little practice like driving a car without a clutch , you have to match vehicle speed with engine rpm and the gear your selecting

[BattlestarGalactic]

I've been doing a little research, so I may be getting some terms mixed up. I'm still learning this stuff. I might have gotten the info on jumping out of gear mixed up with the Lenco transmissions, which I think is an issue with them. I also looked at them...briefly..lol  BIG price tag!

You are thinking about a FULL CLUTCHLESS set up, like Liberty Equalizer, or even the full clutchless G force GF5R.  They do not hold gear if not under power.  The split sliders just pop back to neutral position.  Lenco(or Jeffco) are planetary transmissions just like an automatic.  Nothing to worry about coming out of gear, but very power robbing set up.

And yes, Larry, if I had been thinking straight, I would have checked out your set-up closer at the FERR. I might catch you at one of the UMTR races this year though. I've been thinking about joining just to have some fun with the car, and not having to deal with the headaches of sanctioned NHRA races.

Again, thanks for the input on downshifting a Long shifter.

You joining the North UMTR?  We don't really race out your way.  Only other race this season is Pacemakers Aug 5th.  We were at Trails a couple weeks ago.  Not that I don't want you to come run with us, but won't be "close".   Edgar comes from Marion area every race.  Heck one guy comes from New England for our races!!!

As for inputs?  That is only the lengths that are critical.   I run a typical chrysler hemi spline input, but with Ford pilot bearing diameter(I welded mine up from the Chevy dimension it was when I bought it).  I actually run a big input Ford bearing retainer on my nash/Gforce box.  Same bolt pattern.  That allowed me to still run my big input bearing/fork from my toploader.  I just had to come up with another seal to match the retainer bore and the input shaft size.  Common off the shelf piece.

If you ever want to talk, call me and we can go over stuff.  If you get to a race, I'll take you for a spin and show how to drive wtih a Long shifter.

With the repair issues with Jerico you might want to look at Gforce G101 4 spd.

[cjshaker]

Thanks for those pictures. I wouldn't be too worried about the sealing, I could work it so that it wasn't really an issue unless I went puddle jumping   The only real chance of the car seeing rain is during Drag Week. The shifter is actually far enough left that I had considered notching the console and have it sticking up beside it, except for the reverse lever. Yep, that idea was out..lol

Larry, it wouldn't be a serious venture to try and make all the meets, but I'd be willing to travel a bit to make a few of them. I've looked at their schedule and saw that most were fairly far east and south from me. But I travel to eastern Pennsylvania just to have a little fun, so... I'm just into having fun with the car at this point, and I like the idea of an all manual class!

I knew I was getting some of the other trannys mixed up. I only briefly looked into some of the higher end stuff, so my recollection is far off I'm sure.  I need to do a lot more research to understand all the differences and ins and outs of each one. Like for instance, I had not really heard about repair issues with the Jerico's. What would those be? My mind is not made up yet, so that's why I'm asking and learning. And I'll look into the G101.

[BattlestarGalactic]

Seems Jerico runs out of parts for transmissions they deem obsolete.  Buy their newest one and have parts.  Run an older version and take your chances if something happens to it.  No first hand experience, but just have heard from those that run them.

As for making a boot around shifter?  I made a box with a lip, then used a big super shifter boot to cover it all up.  Works well, even after 22 yrs it is still hanging in there.

I wasn't sure what your plans were for UMTR.  Not sure if the South group would be a closer venue.  Though I don't run with them so you would have to make some new friends there.  Keep me posted on which races you plan to attend.

[67gt350]

Doug, have you considered a Richmond/Doug Nash 5 speed? The older Street 4+1 ( I am using one in my 70 fastback ) has a 1:1 5th gear so you can run a higher numeric gear ( using a 3:25 ) but with the transmissions 1st-4th ratio it is like having a 4:88 rear gear. The math worked out to be about 2200 rpm in 5th with a 26.5 diameter tire I think?? been awhile since I looked at the paperwork. You can find these used reasonably price. I think it would work out well especially for a situation like Drag Week. Puddle jumping ! Lol ! Your car is way to nice to do that to...

[fekbmax]

You could always go the lenco ST 1200 route.  Sure, they rob a little power, about as much as a C-6 but there tuff, easy streetable, and super easy to work on and make changes.  At about $5100.oo your going to be in that much with a G-101A easy unless you find a good used older G-101 . Sooo many choices,  lol.. I have no doubt you will make the right choice for you.

[Heo]

A friend had a Richmond 5speed in a Blown BB Corvette it worked fine
easy to shift

[cjshaker]

Doug, have you considered a Richmond/Doug Nash 5 speed? The older Street 4+1 ( I am using one in my 70 fastback ) has a 1:1 5th gear so you can run a higher numeric gear ( using a 3:25 ) but with the transmissions 1st-4th ratio it is like having a 4:88 rear gear. The math worked out to be about 2200 rpm in 5th with a 26.5 diameter tire I think?? been awhile since I looked at the paperwork. You can find these used reasonably price. I think it would work out well especially for a situation like Drag Week. Puddle jumping ! Lol ! Your car is way to nice to do that to...

Surprisingly, there ARE a bunch of choices out there. More than I realized, but the Jerico and G-Force seem to be the most common and time-tested for drag racing. I looked at the Richmonds, but I don't think it'd stand up to what I have planned. I may be wrong about that, trying to find true power limits for the different transmissions is a bit hard and the manufacturers are shy about making claims, and understandable given the wide variety of abuse that can be dished out (light/heavy car, clutch styles, tire combo etc).

You could always go the lenco ST 1200 route.  Sure, they rob a little power, about as much as a C-6 but there tuff, easy streetable, and super easy to work on and make changes.  At about $5100.oo your going to be in that much with a G-101A easy unless you find a good used older G-101 . Sooo many choices,  lol.. I have no doubt you will make the right choice for you.

Keith, the Lenco and Libertys look like they would require cutting out the entire trans tunnel, and I don't want to go that far. Not to mention I believe they would require custom adapters, mounts etc (I don't think they make the products commercially to adapt to an FE?). The nice thing about a Jerico is, since it's basically based off of the toploader design, nothing changes unless you want the Long shifter. That's a huge plus. Not sure about the G-force, but it doesn't look all that different either, basically like the older T10 style. Either would easily adapt to the Mustang chassis, as is. With the exception of a 6-point bar, the car will basically stay as is, heavy weight and all. It was 3460, without driver, last time I weighed it. Heavy for a Mustang, and although I do plan on shedding a hundred or so of that by removing the heavy fold-down rear seat and heater box, the roll bar will add it right back. No fiberglass, no interior stripping etc.

[BattlestarGalactic]

Friend ran street Nash(before Richmond bought them) and ran 11.5's in a foxbody.  Got lots of use out of it, but IF you happen to break it........get the checkbook out!!  Those hardened, spiral gears are not really meant for the abuse and will shatter.  I'd rather stick with a Toploader and at least you can get parts quick and easy.

A faceplated Nash would be awesome and you won't break it.  Parts(aka: gears) are still pretty easy to get.  Find a decent one for about $1000, then faceplate it(about $1000) and you are set.

[Rory428]

Between the Jerico & GForce 101, the Jerico is the easiest to fit into a Ford, providing you get a Ford spec input shaft and bearing retainer. The Jerico has the tailhousing drilled for a wide range of shifter locations, the G Force has 1, the Jerico also has Ford, GM, and MoPar trans mount locations and patterns to bolt up an OE trans mount. Strength wise, a buddy sold his vintage narrow gear Jerico for a new G Force 101, and striped the teeth off 2 clusters before he got the clutch dialed in and switched to the "shockproof" gear oil. This is in a 3400 lb Camaro with a 383 small block, running 10.2s. I have ran a pair of Jerico DR4s that I bought used, broke each one once during the past 17 years. One was rather minor, 300 bucks for new 3rd gears, the second was much worse, but after 2 seasons with way too much clutch (not a Soft Lok). And if I would have taken a peek inside every year or so, I likely would have caught it before it ate itself up. Being lazy cost me, so much for "if its ain`t broke, don`t fix it!"

[fekbmax]

It seems that you can find alot of bad reviews or jerico haters out there. My opinion though is there are alot of people that don't adhere to jericos recommendations.  Both my jerico 's are the older un revised version's both are CL 4 clutchless shift so i can't really speak for the DR 4's but i havent had near the problem 's as so many others have had and i know that there are plenty of super stockers that used those years back with good success and decent reliability.  With the clutchless shift stuff its all about the base or static pressure  being low enough. You for sure dont want to use a bunch of base and a ton of rpm and go out and dump the clutch on a jerico or a G force 101.
I am kinda bummed though that jerico has like almost zero parts left for the older stuff like i have. They clame to make everything in house so i can't  understand why they couldn't atleast still offer parts for the un revised stuff. I recently called and wanted a longer input shaft for my old one and was told they couldn't help me. Im sure there's gotta be some place tbat can atleast copy a part and re produce it..

[cjshaker]

I know clutch set-up has everything to do with reliability. And I know it's a learning curve to find out the ideal spec on base pressure, and it's always best to start low and work your way up. I think most guys will admit to using up a clutch before they get it dialed in the first time. That's better than using up a transmission..lol

I really don't get why Jerico won't support their older stuff either. If they make the stuff in house, there's no reason not to. Keith, I've had input shafts welded up to increase length. Would that be an option, or would it require too much length? I had Dan Williams do one for me, and a local shop do another. Then they were finish machined on the end, never had a problem with them.

Another plus for Jerico, for me anyway, is the internal toploader design, which I'm familiar with. So any repairs would be familiar territory. And thanks for the info about the G-Forces' mounting differences, Rory. Something I was not aware of.

[Rory428]

Keith, had a section I am under the impression that Jerico was sold to a different company recently, supposedly now they even accept credit cards! A couple of years ago, when I broke the Jerico in my Mustang, there was a lot of collateral  damage caused by chunks flying around inside, and getting caught up between the rotating gears. One item damaged was the input shaft, which had a section broken off at the snap ring groove where the front main drive gear slides onto the input. This was in 2014, and I had no problem ordering a new input shaft. (It is a 1 3/16x18 MoPar hemi spline, with Ford pilot tip, and 5.0 Mustang length, which is about 1" longer than a input for an older SB Ford using mechanical clutch linkage. However, last summer, a local racer bought a used Jerico (Chevy application), and when he called Jerico to order the same 5.0 Mustang/MoPar input I had bought 2 years earlier, Jerico told him they no longer offered that input. Like you said, Keith, if everything is made "in house" , why can they no longer make this input shaft for a paying customer? I hope this is not a sign of things to come, as I have 2 older Jerico DR4`s I would like to keep going, and buying a new DR4-4 at $4600.00 (less shifter), is not in the budget.

[bobb428]

Doug, I have researched this for my 68 Mustang and found another couple issues to consider. Not only is the hole large to install a long shifter with any transmission there are not many options to seal around the shifter because of its size and shape, also it moves the shifter much closer to the driver than conventional shifters. This is good for control and precise shifts but it is a big change. I found some pictures I have attached of a very cool 68 that uses the transmission you are planning to use. He creatively used the factory carpet and bound the edges but I don't know if there is any other seal like a shift boot there. Hope this helps.

Thanks, thats my interior.

[bobb428]

A Long pistol grip shifter is just fine on the street! Way easier than the T handle V-gate! I run a Jerico Dr4-4 with the road race sliders and could drive all day! My 14 to 1 engine don't think so though! I had to do a bulge where the rods are and the hole I cut out to get the shifter in, I made a DZUS plate out of it. It buts right up to the shifter. I never get smoke in but I do notice more noise if I don't have the mufflers on.
080 by bobb428, on Flickr
078 by bobb428, on Flickr
076 by bobb428, on Flickr

[67gt350]

Hey Bob, it is your interior !! I hope you don't mind me sharing the photos. Thanks for the photos of how you addressed the shifter installation.  I also have a 68 although not a real R code car. In the 70's when you could buy all the parts from Ford the owner converted it. Over the years it has had every engine/transmission combination possible as a drag and street car. Needless to say when I bought it the car was well used. I was introduced to your car in the Sept 11 issue of Modified Mustangs and Fords and also found an online post that you did of your car. Awesome car! I wanted to post the you tube video for Doug of your cruise around the neighborhood the 8,000 RPM shifts with that big FE pulling gears with the Long shifter would really get him motivated!

[cjshaker]

Dang, not sure how I missed Bob's post, but thank you! That gives a nice visual of what will need to be done. And I could easily see how the lever is easier to  use for downshifting, rather than lifting a T-handle.

A question for you, Bob, do you drag race or road race any with your car? If drag racing, I was wondering how well the road race sliders worked for you.

[bobb428]

Its a cool street car! I have no issues with the trans being on the street!
3a1a5537-2fb4-4622-87ae-c3858f082e71_zpspeiujg0k by bobb428, on Flickr
1e8b7e45-9423-442a-96cf-68c0a7546e85_zps0a6b993b by bobb428, on Flickr

[Heo]

Nice looking car Bob

[bobb428]

Thanks

[fryedaddy]

nice launch too