Jays new block

[preaction]

Is there any news from the posts of a year ago ?

[jayb]

There is, actually.  To start with, this wasn't going to be my block.  A manufacturer who has done multiple engine block designs was making an FE block design and was planning to manufacture it.  He contacted me about some design suggestions and I gave him several ideas on how to make the block better and more interesting to the FE community; these design suggestions included the option to machine for a spread bore spacing, and also the option to raise the cam for more stroke.  His plan was to be manufacturing prototype blocks by now, and once in production I would be able to distribute them for him.  See the original post for more information:

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=3943.0

Fast forward to now from the original post, and here is the status:

Cylinder heads and intakes:  I am moving forward on these, since I have complete control on this design.  I hope to release the parts as production items by the end of the year.  I should have prototypes on the dyno by mid summer, and will be posting information on them at that time.

Blocks:  The block manufacturer has not made a lot of progress.  He has incorporated some of my suggestions into the design, but has not finished it, or gone to start machining patterns for the casting.  Apparently he has been tied up with other projects.  As a result I have been looking at potentially doing the block work myself, but based on his design.

I have been talking to a machine shop that is capable of doing all the machining on an FE block, and in fact is already machining blocks for another application.  They have provided me with a tentative quote for getting the machining on a block done, and also doing fixtures, tooling, and programming. 

About two months ago I visited two foundries about casting a block design, one for casting in aluminum and the other for casting in cast iron.  After providing some information on the design, they were also able to give me a ballpark price for the castings.

Then, a couple of weeks ago I visited the block manufacturer, to see about getting the design changes I wanted made, and purchasing the design of the block.  I had a very good meeting with him, and came away from it thinking it was do-able, but also with more questions for the machining outfit.

Moving towards actually going forward with the block has proven to be an iterative process, and I expect more conversations with the machine shop, foundries, and block manufacturer before I pull the trigger on the block for sure.  But I'm excited about it, due to the really cool design features that can be built in.  If I end up going forward with the block, I think it will be head and shoulders above any other block on the market, in terms of performance potential and flexibility.

I expect by the beginning of June I will either pull the trigger on the block project, or abandon it.  If I go forward I will post a LOT more information on the design specifics of the block.

[machoneman]

Cool! More IS better!

[Yellow Truck]

Jay, just a thought, but given the fact that you will not get rich from this, or even make any money, have you thought about doing a crowd funding campaign?

There is a reasonable community of FE fans, but it is widely distributed and not easy to get to by traditional means (land or air travel, mail) but crowd funding is effective to motivate a community.

[cammerfe]

Just a humble suggestion Jay, but have you considered back-engineering a Cammer block? Think---"What can I leave off, if this block were to be used with a set of Cammer heads"? And then do the cutting program in such a way that an entire cam tunnel could be cut if the block were to be destined for pushrods. The lack of a cam tunnel, except in the front, would make for a stronger block. And casting the front solid instead of just separate bulkheads would strengthen the front as well if a stub cam were to be needed.

In essence, if the core of the engine were to be solid, the block would be much more rigid. But with the right machining program, the traditional accessories could still be accommodated. Paying attention to the filter mounting pad, such that the 'in' and 'out' holes are spaced so as to avoid interference would also be a plus.

KS

[jayb]

Jay, just a thought, but given the fact that you will not get rich from this, or even make any money, have you thought about doing a crowd funding campaign?

There is a reasonable community of FE fans, but it is widely distributed and not easy to get to by traditional means (land or air travel, mail) but crowd funding is effective to motivate a community.

I have thought about that, but my experience with these things makes me a little reluctant to try something like that.  Its not just a matter of the money.  If I had a crowd funding setup and it reached the financial goal, there might still be things that would kill the project.  All kinds of stuff can go wrong along the way, and even if successful the projects always take longer than expected.  I just don't want to be the guy who everybody complains about because they've given money and haven't gotten anything.  Its not the way I would want to be treated, and I don't want to treat anybody else that way either.

As it is, with the block, my plan would be to fund the first prototypes all the way through the machining process myself, so that I would have the complete recipe to build them.  But then, due to the high cost of ordering 50 or 100 block castings, I would want to get deposits from customers before I went to the foundry with the production order.  Again I feel a little reluctant taking deposits, but if I've already done a few successful blocks, there wouldn't be any doubt that I could deliver them in production, and I could probably offer a reasonably accurate time frame for delivery, so it wouldn't be one of those open-ended deals like so many of the others us FE guys have experienced in the past.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm going to proceed as described above unless something major changes...

[jayb]

Just a humble suggestion Jay, but have you considered back-engineering a Cammer block? Think---"What can I leave off, if this block were to be used with a set of Cammer heads"? And then do the cutting program in such a way that an entire cam tunnel could be cut if the block were to be destined for pushrods. The lack of a cam tunnel, except in the front, would make for a stronger block. And casting the front solid instead of just separate bulkheads would strengthen the front as well if a stub cam were to be needed.

In essence, if the core of the engine were to be solid, the block would be much more rigid. But with the right machining program, the traditional accessories could still be accommodated. Paying attention to the filter mounting pad, such that the 'in' and 'out' holes are spaced so as to avoid interference would also be a plus.

KS

I don't know, Ken, I think that would add a lot of cost to the block in terms of machining, since the vast majority of the block would have the cam tunnel.  I have thought about completely enclosing the cam tunnel in the casting, so that the cam is completely contained, but that is also difficult when considering the raised cam option I want to offer.  So I think I'll probably stay conventional in that area...

[Yellow Truck]

Jay, just a thought, but given the fact that you will not get rich from this, or even make any money, have you thought about doing a crowd funding campaign?

There is a reasonable community of FE fans, but it is widely distributed and not easy to get to by traditional means (land or air travel, mail) but crowd funding is effective to motivate a community.

I have thought about that, but my experience with these things makes me a little reluctant to try something like that.  Its not just a matter of the money.  If I had a crowd funding setup and it reached the financial goal, there might still be things that would kill the project.  All kinds of stuff can go wrong along the way, and even if successful the projects always take longer than expected.  I just don't want to be the guy who everybody complains about because they've given money and haven't gotten anything.  Its not the way I would want to be treated, and I don't want to treat anybody else that way either.

As it is, with the block, my plan would be to fund the first prototypes all the way through the machining process myself, so that I would have the complete recipe to build them.  But then, due to the high cost of ordering 50 or 100 block castings, I would want to get deposits from customers before I went to the foundry with the production order.  Again I feel a little reluctant taking deposits, but if I've already done a few successful blocks, there wouldn't be any doubt that I could deliver them in production, and I could probably offer a reasonably accurate time frame for delivery, so it wouldn't be one of those open-ended deals like so many of the others us FE guys have experienced in the past.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm going to proceed as described above unless something major changes...

Jay,

I do very much appreciate your desire to protect your excellent reputation. Having said that, the true dynamic of a crowdfunding program is that the "sponsors" are actually making a donation. They are not buying anything, and they need to have the expectation that if the project held no risk and was not expensive and time consuming, then it wouldn't need crowd funding.

I would donate $100 to your research efforts on this, including the prototyping work, without a second thought. The role of the crowdfunding site (be it indigogo or Kickstarter) is to insulate the fund raiser from any liability to the funders.

If you make it clear that:

• You believe the world needs a reasonably priced and readily available FE block with a few improvements over the previously available designs
• The cost and risk to get it to production will never be compensated by sales revenue - which is why there isn't one out there
• It is possible the project can fail at one of many places - the design is known and not radical, but to get it made involves prototyping and prototypes fail, if you do get a working block made you may not be able to get it made at a reasonable cost at adequate quality in quantities that make it feasible, and finally, there may not be a decent sized market for them when made.

You already do an excellent job of reporting on your projects, and that is what your crowdfunding audience really want, as well as the knowledge that they can get a lovely new block if they want and can afford one.

The key to funding the project is to reach a motivated audience who would like to see it succeed. "427 FEPower" stickers would be an adequate giveaway.

You have a couple of platforms available to promote the project, this forum being one of them.

[cjshaker]

Except for families with deep medical bills from cancer or a sick child, I'm REALLY not a fan of "Fund Me" stuff. Just my opinion, but it seems like the person is saying "Give me money so that I can succeed and you'll get nothing in return". I realize the block could be a reality that way, but you'd still be paying full price for your 'investment'. It always seems like a scam to me. Like I said though, JMO. Now if we got something like 50% off the purchase price...well, that would be different 


 

I have thought about completely enclosing the cam tunnel in the casting, so that the cam is completely contained, but that is also difficult when considering the raised cam option I want to offer.

Not to mention it would probably add another 20+ lbs to an already heavy block. Aftermarket blocks already add about 50+ lbs over a stock one.

A couple questions though; would a raised cam play havoc with rocker arms? Obviously the geometry would be different, but would it create a problem where the pushrod meets the rocker, or are we only talking about a couple hundred thousandths? Would a big lobe still have clearance to the lifter bore? This would also effectively raise the lifter, so wouldn't the lifter bore have to be raised to accommodate a big lobe?

Also, how close is the top gear to the cover? I never measured to see how close it is and wonder if it would possibly hit?

[jayb]

Doug, I'm with you on the crowd funding thing.  Not that its a scam, but I don't like the idea of asking for donations, and I've never given any unless its been a worthy medical cause.

On my block design the cam can be raised 0.400".  The lifter bores have to be raised the same amount.  It would change the pushrod angle, but I think if anything it would help with pushrod to rocker interference, since this usually occurs between the pushrod and the rocker body.  Raising the lifter should move the pushrod away from the rocker body.  The block would be cast so that the lifter bores can be machined in either location, and the excess material cut away; should be no issue with cam lobe clearance.  A factory timing cover will not work, but one of my covers with the removable plate will work, I just have to add one machining operation to the timing cover.  I had that in mind when I designed those covers.  Part of the master plan...

[machoneman]

Jay, would a modern design belt drive system, ala' Pro Stock/Comp Eliminator, fit under one of your covers? Just askin' as some racers might also want to run same.

[Yellow Truck]

A lot of people have a wrong view of crowdfunding. Small companies and entrepreneurs (like you Jay) find it really hard to find risk capital today. There is a reason for this and it is called Wall Street. I've worked on Wall Street and capital markets were my business. Forgive the lesson, but Glass-Stegall prevented investment banks from being owned by commercial banks.

When it was repealed it meant that the small investment banks were crushed or absorbed, and now if a deal isn't worth a billion (I'm not making up that number) you don't get any investment bank interested. Funding small companies became the exclusive domain of venture funds, and if you don't promise to become a billion dollar deal, they aren't interested.

Crowdfunding lets people like me say - "I like what you are doing and I think I'd like to see that, and I'll take some of the risk away from you".

As I said, I'd donate a $100 if it meant that a good new block at a reasonable price came on the market, and it came sooner rather than later. I think you wouldn't find it hard to find at least 100 more like me.

Sadly, unlike the SBC crowd, we can't wait for Edelbrock to decide there is enough profit in it, so we can continue to look forward to walking up to a really nice 34 Ford and seeing a cursed SBC sitting in it.

Where can I send my $100?

[cjshaker]

Crowdfunding lets people like me say - "I like what you are doing and I think I'd like to see that, and I'll take some of the risk away from you".

Where can I send my $100?

I'm currently funding a stroker engine based on my Sideoiler Garage Block. Who wouldn't like to see that? I'll PM you my address 

[gdaddy01]

Jay , I think you are a straight up guy and I appreciate it . thanks for all of your hard work .

[Yellow Truck]

I'm currently funding a stroker engine based on my Sideoiler Garage Block. Who wouldn't like to see that? I'll PM you my address 

Well that is the difference, one is a project that benefits the individual, one benefits the many.

I would like to see your '58 wagon. Always loved wagons. Maybe I should hotrod one when I get board with the F100.

Probably too far to drive, how about a picture. I'd pay a dollar for that.