Author Topic: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?  (Read 10091 times)

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My427stang

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2017, 11:20:24 AM »
Why not just put a turbodiesel in that "sports car" along with a C6 and a 2.73 rear gear?  What's next?  Fuel injection and a radio?  :'(

My mom in law would like it.  :P

Of course, I didn't realize there was an option 3 or 4 from the original question.

Sounds awesome to me, bring it up on boost with a trans brake and spank all of us FE guys :)

Only downside is diesel soot in an open air vehicle!
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

120mm

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2017, 12:18:55 PM »
Why not just put a turbodiesel in that "sports car" along with a C6 and a 2.73 rear gear?  What's next?  Fuel injection and a radio?  :'(

My mom in law would like it.  :P

Of course, I didn't realize there was an option 3 or 4 from the original question.

Sounds awesome to me, bring it up on boost with a trans brake and spank all of us FE guys :)

Only downside is diesel soot in an open air vehicle!

And not enough clearance to hang those plastic testicles from the tow hitch.

plovett

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2017, 12:34:57 PM »
Why not just put a turbodiesel in that "sports car" along with a C6 and a 2.73 rear gear?  What's next?  Fuel injection and a radio?  :'(

My mom in law would like it.  :P

Of course, I didn't realize there was an option 3 or 4 from the original question.

Sounds awesome to me, bring it up on boost with a trans brake and spank all of us FE guys :)

Only downside is diesel soot in an open air vehicle!

You WOULD like that, Ross.  :)

What I'm getting at is most of you guys who say you're for Option 2 really aren't.  You say, go with option 2, BUT just bite the bullet and go with the heads from Option 1.   I'll call that option 3.

OR, you say go with Option 2, but only temporarily.  That is, until the original poster realizes he wants more, like Eddy heads.  I'll call that option 4.

Those a both valid options, but not what the poster originally asked.   Of the original two combos, one a 390 with good alloy heads and other a stroker (I'm assuming a 445) with stock factory iron heads,  I'll stand by my choice all day long.   I know which one would be more fun to drive in a 2300 pound car.  I'd much rather bang a 6500 or 7000 rpm shift in a zingy 390 than struggle up to 5500-6000 rpm in an asthmatic 445.

Honestly I think everyone is thinking get better heads, whether now or later, whether aftermarket alloy or ported factory heads with bigger valves.

Sure, you can cam up the big stroker with the small heads to compensate.  But it's still a mismatched combo.  And that only works up to a point.  Eventually you get to the point where you killed of the low end with the big cam and the top end sucks because of the small heads, even with the big cam.  It's still a mismatched combo.

I think it'd be hard to argue with option 3, if the poster can swing the price. 

JMO,

paulie


120mm

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2017, 12:47:39 PM »
Why not just put a turbodiesel in that "sports car" along with a C6 and a 2.73 rear gear?  What's next?  Fuel injection and a radio?  :'(

My mom in law would like it.  :P

Of course, I didn't realize there was an option 3 or 4 from the original question.

Sounds awesome to me, bring it up on boost with a trans brake and spank all of us FE guys :)

Only downside is diesel soot in an open air vehicle!

You WOULD like that, Ross.  :)

What I'm getting at is most of you guys who say you're for Option 2 really aren't.  You say, go with option 2, BUT just bite the bullet and go with the heads from Option 1.   I'll call that option 3.

OR, you say go with Option 2, but only temporarily.  That is, until the original poster realizes he wants more, like Eddy heads.  I'll call that option 4.

Those a both valid options, but not what the poster originally asked.   Of the original two combos, one a 390 with good alloy heads and other a stroker (I'm assuming a 445) with stock factory iron heads,  I'll stand by my choice all day long.   I know which one would be more fun to drive in a 2300 pound car.  I'd much rather bang a 6500 or 7000 rpm shift in a zingy 390 than struggle up to 5500-6000 rpm in an asthmatic 445.

Honestly I think everyone is thinking get better heads, whether now or later, whether aftermarket alloy or ported factory heads with bigger valves.

Sure, you can cam up the big stroker with the small heads to compensate.  But it's still a mismatched combo.  And that only works up to a point.  Eventually you get to the point where you killed of the low end with the big cam and the top end sucks because of the small heads, even with the big cam.  It's still a mismatched combo.

I think it'd be hard to argue with option 3, if the poster can swing the price. 

JMO,

paulie

There might be an option 3(b), or call it 4(a)[1]<q> in the works. More later.

jayb

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2017, 01:25:36 PM »
So... Any suggestions on where to look for parts for a stroker build?

Right now, I've seen Keith Craft has a prepped block for $1529 and Clegg has Scat 4.25 internally balanced rotating assemblies for $1778.

Throw an Edelbrock 2044 Top end kit on that for $2298, and it seems I should be most of the way there for $5605.

Rocker assy/rods    $265
Oil pump kit             $80
Timing cover      $80
Harmonic balancer   $115
Distributor      $130
Valve cover      $200
Canton Oil Pan   kit   $412
Water pump      $105
Expansion tank   $50
Fuel pump      $130
Flywheel              $100
Alternator bracket   $20
Alternator              $50

$7342 without carb, pulleys or rubber bits, so call it $8000

Bellhousing              $625
Clutch                      $350
Toploader/shifter     $1000
Driveshaft                $350

Wheels                      $2049
Tires                         $1200

Call it $13,750 for drivetrain, once nuts and bolts are thrown in.

That's within shouting distance to my pre-stated budget, right there.

I think you need a decent 390 core, and a good local machine shop.  You could knock a bunch of money off your budget if you started with that.  For example, rocker assembly, timing cover, harmonic balancer, distributor, valve covers, water pump, expansion tank, and fuel pump.  You don't need anything special there for the kind of power you are making, and you are budgeting over $1000 for this stuff.  Find a good 390 core for $500 or less and you'll get all this stuff, plus the small parts you need for any engine build.  Then take the block to you local machinist and have it decked, bored and honed, and have the mains align honed.  Probably cost $800 or less.  There, I've just saved you $1500  ;D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

120mm

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2017, 10:30:27 PM »

I think you need a decent 390 core, and a good local machine shop.  You could knock a bunch of money off your budget if you started with that.  For example, rocker assembly, timing cover, harmonic balancer, distributor, valve covers, water pump, expansion tank, and fuel pump.  You don't need anything special there for the kind of power you are making, and you are budgeting over $1000 for this stuff.  Find a good 390 core for $500 or less and you'll get all this stuff, plus the small parts you need for any engine build.  Then take the block to you local machinist and have it decked, bored and honed, and have the mains align honed.  Probably cost $800 or less.  There, I've just saved you $1500  ;D

The only reputable local machine shop charges $1600 for what you describe. The alternative shops are either "hit or miss" on quality, or NASCAR shops that charge NASCAR prices. The problem is the shortage of younger, smart guys who want to become machinists. I believe Mike Rowe has something to say about that. ;)

The other things you mention are the lowest price point available through internet research. I WILL be hitting junkyards once I'm back stateside, but high scrap iron prices and the EPA have dried up the FE scrap supply.

It doesn't help that my once unending supply of FE parts from my Dad went to the scrap yard a year ago, without my foreknowledge.

Having said that, unbeknownst to you, I have "peeps" talking to me offline about driving down some of those prices. :)

jayb

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2017, 10:48:50 PM »
You must be talking to the wrong machine shop.  My shop charges $175 for an align hone, $320 for a bore and hone, and $180 (I think) to deck the block.  It would be cheaper to ship a block to a good shop than pay $1500 for that stuff.  Look around, I'm sure you can find a better price..
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

120mm

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2017, 11:23:12 PM »
You must be talking to the wrong machine shop.  My shop charges $175 for an align hone, $320 for a bore and hone, and $180 (I think) to deck the block.  It would be cheaper to ship a block to a good shop than pay $1500 for that stuff.  Look around, I'm sure you can find a better price..

I have, thanks to this board.

Plus, I'm buying a pre-machined block, rather than having to go through the whole "find a block and tear it down" rigamarole.

Drew

120mm

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2017, 12:44:09 AM »
Without going into details, Brent Lykins has proposed a parts list that puts me under budget, and allows me to incorporate both good flowing heads AND a 4.250" stroke. Included in this list of parts are some surprising upgrades I thought I couldn't afford.

I guess the moral of the story is to not be afraid to sound dumb and to ask questions when you have them.

Now to earn the dough so I can go home and build this thing!

unclewill

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2017, 09:42:57 AM »
I will sell you a complete running 427 side oiler for $7500 + shipping.  You will need to add 850 Holley, plug wires and accessories. 
Specs here:  https://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/pts/6009626578.html
How does that fit into your budget?   ;)
1969 Ford Cobra, 482 side oiler, BBM aluminum heads, FiTech EFI, Edelbrock 7105, Comp 292H, CR 4 speed, 9", 3.50

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2017, 10:07:13 AM »
Going against the grain here..... I couldn't possibly agree more with Paulie.
I think an AC Cobra with a 350hp 289 based engine or a 450hp 390 based engine would be awesome.
Stroker with stock heads?  That is a pickup truck engine.  In an AC cobra that is just asking for unintentional burnouts. 
What fun is having a Cobra if you can't wind out the engine a little bit?

All that said, Uncle Will's 427 is probably the best deal going, from an economic and "cool standpoint."

If there ever was a combination that was right for combination 1, this is it.  You have a light car with fairly low gearing, and a big block in it.  You won't be hurting for low rpm power.

I would much rather have the 390 with better heads than the 445 with stock heads.  This is a car that will want to rev.  The heads are the main key to power.   More displacement, especially with lo-po heads will pump up low rpm power.  This combination doesn't need or want the extreme low rpm power that a stroker with "small heads" will provide.

If you were building an engine for a truck or a Galaxie or maybe even a Fairlane, I'd say go for combination 2 for sure.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 12:01:49 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

120mm

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2017, 11:27:30 AM »
I will sell you a complete running 427 side oiler for $7500 + shipping.  You will need to add 850 Holley, plug wires and accessories. 
Specs here:  https://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/pts/6009626578.html
How does that fit into your budget?   ;)

Will you hold onto it until sometime this fall when I come up with the money?

Because at this moment, my engine budget is "zero".  :(  As much as I'd like that engine, I have a feeling it won't be around by the time I will have the cash to buy it.


unclewill

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2017, 12:15:30 PM »
We'll see what happens, I'm in no hurry...
1969 Ford Cobra, 482 side oiler, BBM aluminum heads, FiTech EFI, Edelbrock 7105, Comp 292H, CR 4 speed, 9", 3.50

FElony

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2017, 03:33:24 PM »
I'm with Drew...option 5 is high-winding 289 with aluminum everything except block. Best choice for a car like that. Dual quads or Webers, LeMans cam.

120mm

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Re: Engine choice: Heads or stroke?
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2017, 11:00:19 PM »
I'm with Drew...option 5 is high-winding 289 with aluminum everything except block. Best choice for a car like that. Dual quads or Webers, LeMans cam.

I'm also Drew.

Not used to having "Drew fratricide" on a car forum.