Author Topic: New Cammer owner  (Read 16533 times)

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ToddK

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New Cammer owner
« on: February 02, 2017, 07:06:23 AM »
A few months back, I posted a link to an ad for a complete SOHC engine that was for sale local to me. At the time, I wasn't interested, but curiosity got the better of me. I went and checked it out, and, after much deliberation and selling my left *$% to fund it, I bought it. I figured that I have always wanted a cammer, and I have never seen a complete engine using mostly factory parts come up for sale in my part of the world, so I had better grab it while I can. I plan to put the engine in my '63 Galaxie, and have just had a set of headers made for it. The engine is now back in my workshop and will be stripped down to check everything.



Some details of the engine. The previous owner bought it from Les Blahut and was going to put it in his Galaxie. However, poor health prevented him from proceeding with the project. The engine had been dry assembled, but was stored in less than ideal conditions. A lot of dirt and bugs are throughout the it, so I will strip, clean and check everything.

The engine is based on a service replacement sideoiler block, and I was told it is at 4.245" bore.







The crank is a steel 427 $ crank, but has been offset ground to use BBC rods and has 4.00" stroke.



The rods are supposed to be Manley, but from what I can see so far, they have a big black cat on the beams, so not sure if that makes them CAT rods. Also, I haven't seen the brass screws in the centre of the main caps before, not sure what they are about.



The pistons are supposed to be Diamond and the compression is supposed to be 10.5 to 1, which should work okay with our premium ULP.



Another interesting thing about the block is that the lifter bores have keyway slots in them.



The heads are factory cast irons that were supposedly set up by Jim Green. They do look in good condition, and have 2.25"/1.90" valves.







This engine is set up with the early lash cap style non-adjustable rocker arms, and also has the low profile magnesium valve covers. The cams that came in it are Crower grinds that are fairly mild, so once I determine exactly what the compression ratio is, I will replace them with some new Comp cams.

The engine also came with a single 4 barrel factory intake and original C5AF BV Holley carb, which I plan to use. I do have a Munro 2x4 intake that I may swap on it at some point.

The timing chain and gears are all Munro parts, using the bigger 0.250" pin chain.

So now I strip, clean and check to see exactly what I got for my money. Then the fun of re-assembly begins.

thatdarncat

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2017, 07:21:03 AM »
Nice, looking forward to seeing the project. Who made the headers?
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
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ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2017, 07:43:10 AM »
A local exhaust guy I regularly use. The headers are off being ceramic coated at the moment.

rowdy58ford

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2017, 09:07:58 AM »
Do you know what the spring pressure is valve seat?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 09:09:34 AM by rowdy58ford »

e philpott

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2017, 10:39:57 AM »
beautiful !!

XR7

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2017, 02:42:43 PM »
Looks pretty cool! Since the block is a 72 maybe it is one of the "P" blocks? Check the back by the bell flange.

Maybe the brass plug deal is blocking off an old PSE main "additional" oiling kit (don't remember what he called it)?

I was also going to ask how your High Riser 64 Fairlane drag project is coming along? I haven't seen an update in a while, very curious! It is summer down under so hopefully you are making some passes? Frozen solid around here with a couple feet of snow on the ground, 4 or 5 feet where I have shoveled and thrown it... ugh!
68 Cougar XR7 GT street legal, 9.47@144.53, 3603# at the line, 487 HR center oiler, single carb, Jerico 4 speed, 10.5 tires, stock(er) suspension, all steel full interior

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2017, 03:43:41 PM »
I still have the '64 Fairlane and have made some good progress with it, though still not down the track yet. But very close. I will do an update on that in the next day or so.

The block does have the "P" cast on the back of it. I've been told it is supposed to be a "high nickel" content block, but not sure. It does look pretty clean and the bores look good, so I'm happy with that.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 05:44:33 PM by ToddK »

WConley

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2017, 06:04:45 PM »
Yes the "P" block should be a good piece.  That actually stands for higher phosphorus in the iron.  The "P" blocks were sold as a premium item for racing applications in the Ford "OHO" catalogs back in the day.

Are you using external drainback lines or has the block been machined for the cammer drainback holes?
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2017, 04:03:51 AM »
The block has the oil drain back holes at the rear of the decks.

GJCAT427

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2017, 06:20:52 AM »
That block has had some mods made to it. I have a "P" block in my 56 F100 and I know the drain back casting is there but its not drilled. The keyways are a mod to get more oil to the cam and lifters. Crower makes lifters with a flat on one side machined on them , that does the same oil mod. What the brass plugs are on the main caps is a good question, I would be  questioning the strength of them if they are drilled all the way through. Still a good score though.

machoneman

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2017, 07:43:00 AM »
I think those machined keyways in the lifter bores served a different purpose: anti-rotation of similarly keyed roller lifters. Why? The machined keyways are way too deep IMHO to have been used to increase oil flow alone.

As to the brass screws, I agree it was likely the add-on main cap oiling system as noted. I'd not worry about strength either since many aftermarket blocks have similar drilled and tapped main cap bosses, thus allowing a builder to use a screw-in long bolt of small slide hammer to remove tight main caps.   
Bob Maag

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2017, 04:21:32 AM »
Today I did a little more investigation of the engine.

One thing I noticed is that it he oil pan does not sit flat against the pan rail. It is being help up at the rear of the engine by the heads of bolts securing the #5 main cap. The bolts are new ARP with hardened washers, and sit above the pan rail by about 0.180". The oil pan is a cast aluminium type, and doesn't have enough material to be clearanced in the areas that are contacting. Is it possible to have the seats of the rear main cap spot faced further down to allow the bolt heads to sit below the pan rail? Or is there an ARP main bolt set that has a lower head height that will sit below the pan rail?

Heo

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2017, 08:03:47 AM »
I have milled down mine. I don't remember by how much
but i have windage tray and two gaskets so that move the
pan down about 1/4inch. I don't think the minor milling i did
make it significantly weaker . But someone may by know better



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

Gregwill16

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2017, 09:14:53 AM »
+1 will windage tray and 2 gaskets give you the room needed?

My427stang

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2017, 11:20:11 PM »
Could go with a stock set of bolts on the rear cap too.  Pretty stable area back there
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ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2017, 03:38:26 AM »
I'd use stock bolts except I don't have any laying around. I will probably get the caps machined in case I ever change over to main studs. I checked the bolts holes in the block and they are deep enough to allow the bolt heads to sit below the pan rail.

Heo

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2017, 05:27:05 AM »
I use ARP studs in my engines. Not that i dont trust
Ford oem fasternes but i dont trust the former "mecanics"
that have "torqued" the bolts...Impact wreches,extesionpipes...
Huuuh?? Torque wrech??? :o  dont need that just a 2m extesion pipe



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

WConley

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2017, 11:58:41 AM »
Todd -

Be sure to chase out the main saddle threads with a bottoming tap if you're going deeper.  There's probably decades of crud in those bottom threads.

Also make sure there's no grease in the bottom of the holes.  I've seen cases where people have cracked block saddles from hydro-locked grease or crud in the bottom of main bolt holes.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2017, 05:17:20 PM »
Good point Bill, I'll make sure to do that.

I dropped the heads off yesterday to a local guy I trust, he will check them over, give the ports a minimal clean up and then flow test them. I'm also going to give him the 2 intake manifolds I have to test, a factory single 4 barrel and a Munro 2x4 single plane. Will be interesting to see what the heads actually flow, as they are as near to a stock iron head as you can get.

I also plan to take the block and rotating assembly to another local machine shop to be checked over. I may end up replacing the rods, as I am unsure of there origin and some of them have some pitting on them from being exposed to the environment when the previous owner stored the engine. I'll see what the guys at the machine shop think about them.

I noticed yesterday when I stripped the engine, that some of the bores have a few bad water stains in them, again from the way the engine was stored. Hopefully the machine shop can get them cleaned up okay without having to take out any material.

fekbmax

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2017, 05:46:54 PM »
Iron head SOHC ..
Thats just cool..
Keith.  KB MAX Racing.

machoneman

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2017, 07:26:49 PM »
Yes, let's hope the bore clean up with literally some wet/dry paper or a real, real light ball hone run through.

On the rods, my experience has usually been due to their forged steel composition (dense surface, not prone to interior degradation) they should not only clean up fine but be fully usable. Great though you'll have another set of eyes check them.
Bob Maag

WConley

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2017, 12:32:15 AM »
Let us know how your heads flow.  I see those are factory heads from an original numbered engine assembly (from the PB marks and 106, 113 numbers).  Cool score!

My factory iron heads flowed 350 CFM at .600" lift, but they got a light port massage at H-M's shop in Charlotte when new.  I'll be curious if that's close to pure stock.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2017, 08:53:38 AM »
I had my set of cast iron heads flowed, with no porting, and got a peak of about 335 cfm on the intake.  But it doesn't take much work to get those to 400...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2017, 01:40:47 AM »
Okay, just got my heads back from being cleaned, checked and flow tested. It appears that while they are not entirely stock, they have had only a minor clean up in the bowl area just behind the valves. They also only had a 30 degrees seat on both intake and exhaust, and the exhaust seats are extremely thin, so that is something I will have to keep an eye on if running unleaded fuel. Otherwise, they are in good condition. The chambers were measured at 123cc.

The flow results, at 28" through 2.25" intake and 1.90" exhaust valves. The 2 tests were done, one on each head. The results are within a couple of cfm of each other.

Lift        Int/Exh
0.100"   91/69
0.200"  172/124
0.300"  236/162
0.400"  275/192
0.500"  312/209
0.550"  323/217
0.600"  332/227
0.650"  342/234
0.700"  351/241
0.750"  357/248
0.800"  358/254

I also had one head flowed with the factory C6AE-J single 4 intake manifold attached, a 1" 4 hole spacer and an 850 Holley. The flow was checked at 0.500" lift and at 0.700" lift at both an inner and outer port. At 0.500", the combo flowed 274/277, and at 0.700" it flowed 302/287. So as I suspect, the 4V intake will be a bit of a choke on these heads, which is why Ford moved to the 8V intake manifold for later production engines. However, I will still run the 4V, as it is a fairly rare piece and still should be able to support a streetable 550hp.

I also took the bottom end to a machine shop to be checked out. As soon as the head of the shop saw the conrods, he said throw them in the bin. They are a cheap import brand made in India and of poor quality. So I bought a set of Scat H beams with the ARP2000 bolts, which also should be sufficient for my hp goals. The block checked out okay, apart from needing to have the decks squared, which is good. So the machine shop will do that and then rebalance the rotating assembly.

Once I get it back home, I will check the clearances and measure the piston dome volume to see what the static compression will be. Once I know that, I can then order a new pair of cams for it.

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2017, 02:10:57 AM »
I picked up the bottom end from the machine shop this morning. They faced the decks, re-bushed the new rod small ends to suit the piston pins, polished the crank journals, spot faced the rear main cap so the ARP bolt heads sit below the oil pan rail, and then rebalanced the rotating assembly. I will be using a McLeod twin plate clutch with this engine, so gave them the kit flywheel to balance. Surprisingly, it needed about 60g taken out to balance. The clutch kit is supposed to be for an internal balanced engine, but all is okay with it now.

However, when I got the block home, I noticed a crack at the very front of the LH deck. I have posted a thread and picture in the Technical section regarding this. From the front surface of the block, it looks as though it may have been repaired there in the past. So until I determine whether this block is okay to use as is, or needs to be repaired, this project is on hold.

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2017, 03:12:33 AM »
I have been making some progress with getting my SOHC engine back together. The bottom end is all assembled, I have new Comp cams and matching valve springs and retainers, and am at the stage where I am checking the valve lash clearance.



The rockers on my engine are the early style that use lash caps of varying thickness to set the valve lash. The original Ford engines were supplied with a variety of lash caps varying in thickness from 0.020" to 0.078", in 0.002" increments. However, I don't have that set, only what was on the engine when I bought it. I found a company here in Australia that can make precision ground lash caps, but the thinnest they can make is 0.040". And, unfortunately, I need 6 lash caps that are in the 0.030" to 0.038" range. I have tried swapping different rocker arms onto different valves, but with no change.

At this stage, unless I can get hold of an original set of Ford lash caps, I need to find a supplier who can make lash caps in the 0.030"-0.038" thickness range. Another option I have is that I bought some extra 0.040" lash caps, and I will try and find a local machine shop that can turn or grind them down to the thickness I need.



Does anyone have a suggestion as to what is the best way to go here?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 03:47:10 AM by ToddK »

jayb

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2017, 08:00:48 AM »
Grind the 0.040" caps to the thickness that you need.  It is easily done on a valve stem grinder, should be common equipment at most machine shops.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2017, 08:31:38 PM »
Thanks for that Jay. I was hoping something like that would be possible, just wasn't sure. I'll report back on the results.

WConley

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2017, 11:58:02 PM »
I was able to do just that on a lash cap cammer rebuild a few years back.  It worked out fine. 

Yes the valve stem grinder is the perfect tool.  Just go gently so you don't put too much heat into the cap.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2017, 11:30:51 PM »
Time for a quick update, and testing out a new photo hosting site.

image by Todd Keen, on Flickr

I now have the engine assembled. When I bought the engine, it was missing the rear plug from the side oiler block that goes into the oil pressure relief valve. I have bought a new plug from Doug at POP, just waiting for it to arrive. Once I get that installed, I can prime the oil system.

I had the magnesium valve covers polished, they came up way better than I was expecting. In the picture, they have a light coating of Gibbs oil on them, which has so far been keeping off any oxidation.

I also have to finish sorting the alternator mounting brackets. I have the upper bracket, just waiting on an adjuster bracket that Jay recommended to arrive from Summit.

Hope to have it all ready for a run in on the dyno in the next month or so.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 02:33:46 AM by ToddK »

cobracammer

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2017, 08:14:45 AM »
Nice!  Can't wait to see the results from the Dyno.  :)
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2017, 03:48:36 AM »
Once the engine is successfully run in on the dyno, I plan to swap the induction system from the factory dual plane 4 barrel manifold and 850DP to this Hilborn EFI set up.



I have 2 sets of stacks to go on the throttle bodies, 6.5" open stacks for strip use, and 2" straight stacks with K&N filters which will be used for normal driving around.

I will be using a Holley HP ECU to control the EFI, and have already installed this into my '63 Galaxie. I figure it will be easier to run the engine in on the dyno with the carb. Then I will swap to the EFI before installing the engine in my car. Hilborn have supplied a base tune for the ECU to get it running, and the HP ECU also has self-learning function. However, I will spend some time to get the system tuned on a chassis dyno once it is up and running.

GJCAT427

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2017, 05:17:22 AM »
Todd, did you find out what the crack was at the front of the block? Must have checked out ok as I see the motor is going together.

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2017, 07:21:56 AM »
The crack was not a critical area of the block, did not extend to any of the water jackets or bolt holes, and looked as if it had been there for quite a while. I filled the crack as best I could with JB Weld. I expect it will be okay, well I certainly hope so.

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2017, 08:25:38 PM »
Okay, a progress update, and trialling a new photo hosting site.





It's just about ready to fire up. I have installed the single 4 intake to fire up the engine on the dyno, as I thought it would be easier to sort out than the EFI. I'll be using an 850HP carb. I'm not trying to make max hp on the dyno, I simply want to use the session to break the engine in and make sure it runs okay. Once done there, I will put the EFI intake on before it goes in my car and tune the EFI in car.

The only thing holding me up now is the block was missing the screw in plug from the oil pressure relief valve. As these are a different thread to other gallery plugs, and have a specific length to set the spring pressure, I need to find a replacement. I have ordered one from Doug at POP, but am still waiting for it to arrive. I also have a friend locally who has a side oiler block in storage, and he has offered me a loan of the plug from his block. But I haven't had time to collect it yet. Once I get the plug, I can prime the oil system and it should be dyno ready.

I am happy how the polished finish of the magnesium valve covers is lasting. I have them coated in Gibbs oil which seems to be protecting them quite well. In the pictures, they have the oil coating on them.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 03:22:07 PM by ToddK »

Leny Mason

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2017, 08:16:07 AM »
Hi, are you working with Andy Star at Hilborn / Holley He has peen great to work with. Leny Mason

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2017, 06:09:33 PM »
Yes, Andy has been very helpful so far, a pleasure to deal with.

rowdy58ford

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2017, 06:42:41 AM »
What is your SOHC valve spring pressure at the seat?

ec164

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2017, 04:01:18 PM »
Good Looking Engine Todd.................Al
You're ahead in a Mercury......all the way

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2017, 07:13:56 PM »
What is your SOHC valve spring pressure at the seat?

I don't have the specs here with me, but from memory I'm using Comp 943 springs and they are about 220lbs seat pressure.

ToddK

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2017, 07:00:36 AM »
I managed to get my 5 minutes of fame, but had to share the glory with my Cammer. Street Machine magazine, which is the Australian equivalent of Hot Rod Magazine, were at the dyno facility when I ran my engine recently. They did an interview, took some pics and video footage, and have just released the finished product. I think it came out okay, and I managed not to swear - bonus! Even had my Survival Motorsports/FE Forum t-shirt on.(Jay, do you have any FE Power t-shirts?). Hopefully, I got my story straight regarding the history of the SOHC engine. Enjoy.

https://www.streetmachine.com.au/street-machine-tv/dyno/1712/ford-427-sohc-on-the-engine-dyno-video

Barry_R

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2017, 09:02:55 AM »
Very cool - - congrats!

cobracammer

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Re: New Cammer owner
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2017, 10:13:54 AM »
Very Nice!  Congratulations.  Going to be tons of fun!
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears