Cylinder Head Equipment

[FirstEliminator]

    Hey guys,

     Equipment for repairing heads to perform valve guide replacement, hardened seat installation, seat grinding, valve grinding or cutting is something I'd like to obtain. I've realized I have a bunch of cylinder heads that need to be rebuilt and would like to try my hand at accomplishing this as a DIY. No plans to go into business with cylinder head work. I own a transmission shop and that keeps me overly-busy enough. The one friend I had that was set-up and fluent in cylinder head work had passed away last year. Without him to consult with, I am unsure what would be sufficient for equipment to get the head done thoroughly and efficiently...without buying a machine that is more than what I need. Some of the things I've looked at are:

     A free standing machine like this and others from Kwik-Way, DCM and other brands. 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/PH-2000-Winona-Van-Norman-Drill-Press-Seat-Guide-Cutting-Tooling/162288133383?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D38530%26meid%3Df0cde505e6bf4016bf9cf253b2b6b3ea%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D172415185507


 Old style valve grinders and seat grinding tools.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Automotive-Valve-and-valve-seat-resurfacing-machine-COMPLETE-/201666490782?hash=item2ef442719e:g:GY8AAOSwknJX1VJd&item=201666490782&vxp=mtr


    Just not sure what I need to do guides and valve seats.  There is a lot of stuff out there and some can be had pretty cheap. Yes, I know it would probably be cheaper to just bring the heads somewhere versus buying equipment. Around me, it's pretty far to travel to get something done properly. Plus, I don't smoke or drink, the only way I get hi is through gratification. Accomplishing things myself seems to be my best path to sustain my self worth.  I love equipment and don't mind spending some money to get it. I have the ability to resurface cylinder heads in my shop now. Though it might be  a   s--l--o--w   process on a shaper, it works good and the set-up is pretty easy. I also have milling machines, lathes, cylindrical grinders and surface grinding capabilities.  This is convenient when I want to do things. It's mostly for me and rarely for profit.
 
   Here is a short video I did a while back of my shaper putting a flat surface on a Subaru cylinder head.
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiI9Pmo3SGk
 
    Any suggestions or advice on what equipment would cover the bases to perform these tasks would be great.

   thanks,
     Mark
 

 

[machoneman]

Can't help on what machines are best but.....Kwik-Way has some pretty good "Instruction Sheets" worth looking at. IIRC, the other suppliers also have some free tutorial guides if not short manuals on 'how-to' redo heads.

http://www.kwik-way.com/techdoc/blog1.php

[Heo]

with the first machine you should be able to cut seat cut the heads to
instal seat and cut the guides to install new ones. If you have the right
cutters  with the machine. Dont pay much for a machine without cutting
tools.  I have the same drillpress that this machine is based on. A
Swedish Arboga wery high quality machine  different table and foot though

[Falcon67]

Hooboy...been there, done looked into that.

Short answer - I figured that to do any kind of decent work (which means quality spindle control for concentric valve seat/guide placement or cuts) I'd be in the $10,000~20,000 range.  $5K~10 for a base machine, and God knows what for tooling.  A good head fixture for a vertical mill (e.g. Bridgeport or equ) will run $2000.  Then carbide pilots, seat cutters, guide tooling, concentrically gauges, guide bore gauge, etc for the head side.  Then whatever is required to work the valves - machine, stones, and such.  Then if buying used equipment, how much $$$ will go into bringing said equipment into spec.

 I have a square column mill that works well for many things but cannot hold the tolerances - in my estimation - necessary for seat/guide work.  The nearly mythological little used B-port from an old guys basement doesn't exist in these parts.  I could spend $8000 on a good Tiawan based 9x49 and hope it's a good one or 18K+ on a new BP.   I know where I can get a nice used - well used - seat/guide Torbin Arp for around $5000 with some used up tooling.  Also could get a nice Storm-Vulcan head and block machine for a few $$$$ more with it LOL.  Where the hell would I park all that...

I gave up, I could not figure the ROI at anything reasonable doing hotrod type heads in this area.  Maybe if I lived in a big Metro location, but not here.  I'd do it just for me LOL because who needs an excuse for buying cool tools???!  But - it wasn't a level of investment I could make at this stage of life.

Shop Racingjunk - lots of equipment on there.  Search Advanced, select Tools and Shop Equipment

http://www.racingjunk.com/search?action=doSearch&is_advance=true&searchString=&new_used=&trade=&categoryId1=1132&categoryId2=&categoryId3=&zipcode=&zipcodeRange=200&country=&state%5B%5D=&priceMin=&priceMax=&sortBy=score&resultsPP=20

Looked at the eBay link - I'd figure you'd toss/replace about all the stones and the spring compressors are useless for anything but weak stocker type springs.   I'm not sure my good Mac Tools air operated spring compressor will even work on the roller springs for this new 351C build. 

[Falcon67]

This would be a good buy IMHO

http://www.racingjunk.com/Engine-Machining/182766214/Valve-seat-and-guide-machine-3D-cutter-and-seat-grinding-set.html

[FirstEliminator]

 I love it when an reply to my post starts with "Hoo-boy".....LOL.    But I know exactly what ya mean. It's a big step in tools and equipment to accomplish a thorough job on the heads.  Seems like it would be fun though.

    I looked at the Kwik-Way on racingjunk----kinda looks like what my friend had. Not sure what happened to his equipment. He lived in Orlando, FL and I live in Massachusetts.

[RJP]

If you have the patience of Jobe you can find screaming good deals out there. I bought a very nice Sioux 645 valve grinder + seat grinding equipment that came out of a ...[Gasp!] Cheevrooolay dealership. I like dealership equipment as they don't get used and abused as much as a machine coming from a machine shop that sees daily use. In fact this machine & equipment was stored in the back of the shop as it had not been used in many years. The only use[abuse] the machine saw was the guy I bought it from used the valve grinder to sharpen his screwdrivers, knives and anything else that would fit. After replacing the grinding wheel, a chuck drive belt and some minor adjustments it works perfectly. It does not perform quite as well as a large wheel machine [wheel surface speed] it does a fine job if you take a little extra time grinding and keep the wheel properly dressed. I also bought a Van Norman seat/guide setup from a shop that was closing their doors, owner wanted to retire. Again, not the top of the line equipment but good enough for my home shop that does limited work confined mainly to FE and 385 engine work. These machines have saved me a not-so-small fortune in dollars and time by being able to do work that you would otherwise pay and wait on an outside shop to do. Kinda nice to pull a set of heads one day and reinstall fresh heads the next day and all it costs is gaskets and some valve stem seals. Also a side benefit is when you have some extra time or nothing else to do you can freshen up a set or a couple sets of heads just to keep in stock, then doing a valve job is just a simple one day swap. 

[Falcon67]

That is the other side of it - I got to thinking about it after pricing out some stock iron head work on a 351C.  Shop would cut/tap for studs, bronze guides, seat work, surface.  I would do the spring seats and porting, all parts and final assembly including hone the guides as required for clearance.  Estimate was $1100 for the shop work.  I passed on that work and bought a set of AFD 4V heads bare, all I need to do is check the seats, get parts and assemble, for $1600.  Made more sense to do that.  I still think about it though.  I know where that Torbin Arp is sitting, doing nothing. 

[FirstEliminator]

There are probably a dozen sets of heads that I can think of off hand for engines that I have hanging around here---that all need to bee rebuilt.  I know I've read about driving without hardened exhaust seats this many times and it's probably o-k for most. But, I do use my 58 Merc as a daily driver in good weather. It sees a fair amount of mileage. Not completely sure, but I think I'd like to have hardened exhaust seats in it.   

[Heo]

There is the Mira equipment that i think
is the most popular this days. But i don't
think you can do the guides with them
http://www.miratool.ch/
My last heads was made with a Mira and
he said they was vacuum tested tight
Not lapped so i had to check them
Just a few times back and forth with the thumb
and indexfinger and fine compound and there
was a perfect gray ring around the seat.
So thats precision

[Falcon67]

There are probably a dozen sets of heads that I can think of off hand for engines that I have hanging around here---that all need to bee rebuilt.  I know I've read about driving without hardened exhaust seats this many times and it's probably o-k for most. But, I do use my 58 Merc as a daily driver in good weather. It sees a fair amount of mileage. Not completely sure, but I think I'd like to have hardened exhaust seats in it.   

I've raced a lot of stock heads without hardened seats and have not really seen any valve recession issues.  There is a set of stocker 351C 2V heads under the bench that made 400ish HP on a 351, ran with stainless valves.  No problems.  Could lap a set of valves in them and throw them back on a motor easy.  FWIW.  For a daily driver, probably not much of a problem. 

[FirstEliminator]

  Hey guys, this one seems to be getting into the realm of affordable. Any thoughts? Not sure what is missing.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Winona-PH-2000-Seat-Guide-Machine-/182391065406?hash=item2a775acb3e:g:q5sAAOSwnHZYVDsG&item=182391065406&vxp=mtr
 

   thanks,
      Mark

[ericwevans]

I keep hearing you can go without hardened seats, but if your definition of "Daily Driver" is the same as mine (my truck is used as much as my wife's car) then I would like to submit the following photo of the heads that came off my 352 that was seeing 10,000 - 15,000 miles a year.  Needless to say, I went for the hardened seats when I replaced them.  ;-)

[FirstEliminator]

Gosh Eric, no lash on that valve stem.  Certain engine I have will get hardened seats. Other's will never need it.

[ericwevans]

Yeah, all 8 were noticably receded with that one being the worst.