Author Topic: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake  (Read 96240 times)

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scott foxwell

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #195 on: January 28, 2018, 05:00:39 PM »
Whats funny here is that you can give me 5 different BB Chevy heads, all falling within the same category, cc's, chamber volumes, flow numbers, etc...and I'll show you 5 completely different combinations on the same short block. I guess that's not possible with the FE?
Here's a news flash...the cylinder heads do NOT make the build. It's the COMBINATION that either works, or doesn't. I see some of these "pro built" FE's and their numbers and I think, really?? Not impressive.
What I get really tired of is the "this is an FE...it's "special"..." BS. Or, "I'm an FE specialist, so no one else could possibly build a better FE than me"...or "if it's not on my dyno, it can't be right". I think a few of you guys are just a little full of yourself.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. No real evidence of any error or misdoing on the builder's part...just  a bunch of jealous "FE specialists" who this guy just poked right in the eye.  :o

andyf

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #196 on: January 28, 2018, 05:03:36 PM »
Its really not so much what the factor "is" as the apparent fact that their is something "different".


Despite best efforts, most every small shop dyno installation has some variables that have to be accommodated for.  As an example, mine has a 90 degree turn in the exhaust behind the water tower, and the pipes then travel sideways through the cell to reach an outside wall, where they have another 90 degree bend and a pair of semi-truck mufflers and +/- 15 feet of vertical tubing to exit.  Installations in more of a rural area might just poke straight out the back wall with zero restriction and no mufflers at all. 

Being in Detroit, where the outside air temps are below freezing half the year, my installation breaths "shop air" (I crack an outside door during pulls) instead of running outside air.  Breathing 15 degree temp outside air would not be realistic for any performance engine.  Even with correction factors in play I see some clear variances when testing in August versus December....doubtless the reason that high dollar OE and NASCAR installations are controlled atmospherics as well.


Sounds like your exhaust might be compromised a bit. The dyno cell where I test does a lot of SBC circle track engines. These are usually 420 inch engines with high compression, solid rollers and good heads that make 700 to 750 hp. By changing the way the exhaust system was routed we were able to gain about 20 hp on that type of engine. So if your exhaust system is compromised you might be giving up some power on your builds.

I agree on the super cold air. I don't test if the CF is more than 5%. Fortunately the shop is located at 150 feet elevation and the weather tends to be moderate. So even in the middle of winter the CF rarely gets much below 1.00 and in summer it is rarely over 1.05.

BTW, I'm used to internet guys not believing the numbers. I had a 470 inch Mopar that made 600 hp and everyone thought that was a reasonable build. I spent 18 months, ran 120 dyno pulls and spent about $20K on parts and then that engine made 775 on pump gas. At that point a whole bunch of people started saying the numbers were wrong and the dyno was happy. None of these people had helped me with the engine or paid for the parts or spent 120 dyno pulls in the cell but they all "knew" the numbers were wrong.

1968galaxie

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #197 on: January 28, 2018, 05:09:19 PM »
Pauly is 1000% correct.
Perhaps the pro builders should build an engine with the new heads before all the dis-belief.
I also didn't see a 14% correction factor on this build - only 1% I recall.

Good grief since when was raw port flow become the only factor in HP output?
Blair has shown 330 cfm heads properly designed will out power 370 cfm tunnel ports.


blykins

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #198 on: January 28, 2018, 05:22:50 PM »
Whats funny here is that you can give me 5 different BB Chevy heads, all falling within the same category, cc's, chamber volumes, flow numbers, etc...and I'll show you 5 completely different combinations on the same short block. I guess that's not possible with the FE?
Here's a news flash...the cylinder heads do NOT make the build. It's the COMBINATION that either works, or doesn't. I see some of these "pro built" FE's and their numbers and I think, really?? Not impressive.
What I get really tired of is the "this is an FE...it's "special"..." BS. Or, "I'm an FE specialist, so no one else could possibly build a better FE than me"...or "if it's not on my dyno, it can't be right". I think a few of you guys are just a little full of yourself.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. No real evidence of any error or misdoing on the builder's part...just  a bunch of jealous "FE specialists" who this guy just poked right in the eye.  :o

Scott, this would be an EXCELLENT time for you to build your FE and hop around to a few different dynos to see the difference.

If I would have to guess, there’s about a 10-12% spread between all the dynos represented here.

Absolutely no sour grapes here, but just a recognition that things are not the same between testing equipment. 

What an opportunity for you to gain some experience!

Perry, if you think that these heads are night and day difference from the other modern heads that are available, then I will refer you back to my thoughts about engine builders being privy to information that the average public is not privy to.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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andyf

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #199 on: January 28, 2018, 05:24:09 PM »
Here is a link to my 775 hp 470 inch Mopar:  http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-vacuum-pump-help-engine-make-power/

I think it is an interesting comparison. The Mopar uses Trick Flow heads right out of the box. Their flow numbers are a tad better than the FE numbers but not a huge difference. The Mopar has the same compression ratio and runs on unleaded premium also. It is a single 4 bbl setup so the intake is not as good as the FE, but the intake has been ported by Wilson and is very, very nice.

If I used some of the same tricks on the FE I'd pick up another 25+ hp. Vacuum pump, race pan, synthetic oil, belt drive, etc.

scott foxwell

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #200 on: January 28, 2018, 05:40:07 PM »
Whats funny here is that you can give me 5 different BB Chevy heads, all falling within the same category, cc's, chamber volumes, flow numbers, etc...and I'll show you 5 completely different combinations on the same short block. I guess that's not possible with the FE?
Here's a news flash...the cylinder heads do NOT make the build. It's the COMBINATION that either works, or doesn't. I see some of these "pro built" FE's and their numbers and I think, really?? Not impressive.
What I get really tired of is the "this is an FE...it's "special"..." BS. Or, "I'm an FE specialist, so no one else could possibly build a better FE than me"...or "if it's not on my dyno, it can't be right". I think a few of you guys are just a little full of yourself.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. No real evidence of any error or misdoing on the builder's part...just  a bunch of jealous "FE specialists" who this guy just poked right in the eye.  :o

Scott, this would be an EXCELLENT time for you to build your FE and hop around to a few different dynos to see the difference.

If I would have to guess, there’s about a 10-12% spread between all the dynos represented here.

Absolutely no sour grapes here, but just a recognition that things are not the same between testing equipment. 

What an opportunity for you to gain some experience!

Perry, if you think that these heads are night and day difference from the other modern heads that are available, then I will refer you back to my thoughts about engine builders being privy to information that the average public is not privy to.
Brent, unlike some of you, I don't get real hung up on dyno numbers. I know what to expect out of certain combinations based on math and physics, not voodoo black magic that the "average guy" isn't privy to. That's a bunch of BS. This is why you would never see me in an EM contest. As far as hopping form dyno to dyno, from what I understand if it's not YOUR dyno, or Barry's dyno, it doesn't count. I have found an excellent dyno to use for my projects. He doesn't care about impressing people but I guarantee you he has a Rolodex on his desk with the phone number for anyone you've ever heard of in the engine building world, and can call them at home. And he's a Ford guy. Used to do overflow work for Kasse. Does a lot of FE's. Never find him o the internet either.
I'm building my iron headed 395 ci pump gas hyd roller FE. I'm even going to test two different intakes...an Edelbrock RPM with a big 4150 and a med. riser with a pair of 1850's but I'm not about to run around chasing dyno numbers to try and prove I'm not sure what point...

« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 05:44:08 PM by scott foxwell »

scott foxwell

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #201 on: January 28, 2018, 05:47:21 PM »
Here is a link to my 775 hp 470 inch Mopar:  http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-vacuum-pump-help-engine-make-power/

I think it is an interesting comparison. The Mopar uses Trick Flow heads right out of the box. Their flow numbers are a tad better than the FE numbers but not a huge difference. The Mopar has the same compression ratio and runs on unleaded premium also. It is a single 4 bbl setup so the intake is not as good as the FE, but the intake has been ported by Wilson and is very, very nice.

If I used some of the same tricks on the FE I'd pick up another 25+ hp. Vacuum pump, race pan, synthetic oil, belt drive, etc.
That Peterson pump combo is nice.
We need you to take a look at some of the builds we do.

jmlay

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #202 on: January 28, 2018, 06:56:13 PM »
All,

I do not post much but I visit the forum daily to read about new and old parts, new techniques, old techniques, read about others builds, etc... Over the last few months all of this bickering has put a damper on the forum. Might I suggest all of the bickering be moved to some other form of communication where all others are not exposed.

Andy,

Very interesting build thanks for sharing your experience. Sorry, to drag your post down.
Mike

plovett

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #203 on: January 28, 2018, 07:03:54 PM »
Honestly, I don't see any of this as bickering.  It's just honest and intense discussion.   I think it's good.  I did notice that the only professional engine builder that has actually put his hands on these heads is withholding final judgement, pending more testing.  That seems logical to me.

paulie

blykins

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #204 on: January 28, 2018, 07:15:54 PM »
Whats funny here is that you can give me 5 different BB Chevy heads, all falling within the same category, cc's, chamber volumes, flow numbers, etc...and I'll show you 5 completely different combinations on the same short block. I guess that's not possible with the FE?
Here's a news flash...the cylinder heads do NOT make the build. It's the COMBINATION that either works, or doesn't. I see some of these "pro built" FE's and their numbers and I think, really?? Not impressive.
What I get really tired of is the "this is an FE...it's "special"..." BS. Or, "I'm an FE specialist, so no one else could possibly build a better FE than me"...or "if it's not on my dyno, it can't be right". I think a few of you guys are just a little full of yourself.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. No real evidence of any error or misdoing on the builder's part...just  a bunch of jealous "FE specialists" who this guy just poked right in the eye.  :o

Scott, this would be an EXCELLENT time for you to build your FE and hop around to a few different dynos to see the difference.

If I would have to guess, there’s about a 10-12% spread between all the dynos represented here.

Absolutely no sour grapes here, but just a recognition that things are not the same between testing equipment. 

What an opportunity for you to gain some experience!

Perry, if you think that these heads are night and day difference from the other modern heads that are available, then I will refer you back to my thoughts about engine builders being privy to information that the average public is not privy to.
Brent, unlike some of you, I don't get real hung up on dyno numbers. I know what to expect out of certain combinations based on math and physics, not voodoo black magic that the "average guy" isn't privy to. That's a bunch of BS. This is why you would never see me in an EM contest. As far as hopping form dyno to dyno, from what I understand if it's not YOUR dyno, or Barry's dyno, it doesn't count. I have found an excellent dyno to use for my projects. He doesn't care about impressing people but I guarantee you he has a Rolodex on his desk with the phone number for anyone you've ever heard of in the engine building world, and can call them at home. And he's a Ford guy. Used to do overflow work for Kasse. Does a lot of FE's. Never find him o the internet either.
I'm building my iron headed 395 ci pump gas hyd roller FE. I'm even going to test two different intakes...an Edelbrock RPM with a big 4150 and a med. riser with a pair of 1850's but I'm not about to run around chasing dyno numbers to try and prove I'm not sure what point...

If he's not on the internet, then he's already a wiser man than me. 

My suggestion for you to dyno hop was just an answer to:

1.  Your comment that all dynos that are "calibrated" should be the same. 
2.  Your comment that "I see some of these pro-built FE's, and I think....really??  Not impressive."

Dyno results are all over the map, and as much as you have the right to look at a "pro-built FE" and say, "Really?  Not impressed.", I have a right to look at bogus numbers and say, "Really?  I'm not buying it."  What's good for the goose is good for the gander. 

My statement about dyno variation was not exaggerated.   In internet-land, engine builders are judged by the horsepower of the engine.  Is it fair for the guy who has a tight pump?  Does the guy who has the loose pump deserve to be called a better builder?

I'll be straight up:  the dyno I use had a hardware change a few years ago and some of the data collection equipment was moved into the dyno cell.  My stuff instantly began making about 5% more corrected horsepower.   In the end, it's not my dyno, so I can't do anything about it, so I just began posting non-corrected numbers on the forums, along with weather data.   

The EMC is nice because all engine builders are on the same pump, so that variable is removed.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

jayb

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #205 on: January 28, 2018, 07:18:48 PM »
This thread is treading dangerously close to not being "civil" discourse, per the forum rules.  Please don't make me lock it, guys...
Jay Brown
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- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

andyf

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #206 on: January 28, 2018, 07:36:57 PM »
Honestly, I don't see any of this as bickering.  It's just honest and intense discussion.   I think it's good.  I did notice that the only professional engine builder that has actually put his hands on these heads is withholding final judgement, pending more testing.  That seems logical to me.

paulie

The guy who built this 482 is a professional engine builder and he is a FE guy. He has a FE in his shop truck and a 428 CJ in his Mustang. He has been building FE engines for 30 years. The world is larger than just the guys who log into this corner of the internet.

plovett

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #207 on: January 28, 2018, 07:52:51 PM »
Honestly, I don't see any of this as bickering.  It's just honest and intense discussion.   I think it's good.  I did notice that the only professional engine builder that has actually put his hands on these heads is withholding final judgement, pending more testing.  That seems logical to me.

paulie

The guy who built this 482 is a professional engine builder and he is a FE guy. He has a FE in his shop truck and a 428 CJ in his Mustang. He has been building FE engines for 30 years. The world is larger than just the guys who log into this corner of the internet.

I didn't mean that the guy who built your 482 wasn't a professional engine builder.   I just meant that of the professional engine builders that had posted here on this thread about these heads, only one had actually touched them that I know of.

I'm not making any final judgements yet.  The dyno results are impressive, especially given the relatively mild cam and compression ratio.  I'm not on anybody's side.  I'm just interested in what we find out about these heads. 

paulie

Voodoojl

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #208 on: January 28, 2018, 08:16:41 PM »
Sounds like we need an aftermarket cylinder head comparo.  Stock out of the box with no mods or porting.  Put them all on the same dyno mule.  I know a guy who has a lot of experience with that comparo stuff. He even wrote a great book with all results...Just sayin... ;)

andyf

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Re: New Trick Flow FE cylinder heads & Intake
« Reply #209 on: January 28, 2018, 08:29:18 PM »
Sounds like we need an aftermarket cylinder head comparo.  Stock out of the box with no mods or porting.  Put them all on the same dyno mule.  I know a guy who has a lot of experience with that comparo stuff. He even wrote a great book with all results...Just sayin... ;)

Thanks. I assume you're talking about me and my book?  https://www.amazon.com/How-Build-Max-Performance-Mopar-Big-Blocks/dp/1613250924/

Oh, maybe you mean Barry and his book? Or Jay and his book?