Author Topic: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries  (Read 5744 times)

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chris401

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I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« on: August 11, 2016, 10:31:12 AM »
At estate sales. One was set up for making cabinet handles the other was piled in a room so I don't know what metals it was set up for. With the right molds looked like a good setup for making some of these small obsolete parts we need. I can locate the stock and make the molds. I would like to hear from those who have actually used this equipment and if you can make some decent parts. If these little foundries are not capable of making parts as durable or better than OEM it would be a waste of resources.
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Autoholic

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2016, 07:25:00 PM »
I guess it depends on the actual machines. I've used an induction smelter, requires a garage in order to use properly, but that thing could pump out a decent amount of molten metal. The thing that matters the most IMHO is the mold. You could have a $100k machine to melt metal, but crap molds will result in crap parts. Start with good metal ingots and well designed molds, and the machine itself isn't as important.

It also depends on what you want to make. Sometimes, just going the CNC route will provide a better result with less work and capital invested. But you need to be able to use CAD software to really do things thing way. A CNC machine (5 or 6 axis), a 3D scanner and a good computer with a CAD program like SolidWorks, and the sky is the limit. You can outsource the CNC work and 3D scanning of a part, to keep cost down.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 07:29:37 PM by Autoholic »
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chris401

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2016, 08:39:51 PM »
I was thinking along the lines of window handles, knobs, horn rings ect. The one that was set up I could have had for $300, maybe less sense I was the only one looking at it that day. It was tempting but I figured it would take another $1000 once I built a new ventilation system in my garage then the stock. The molds he was making were like soap. The man that passed away was making them in a small oven and hand carving them to produce cabinet handles. I had Chrysler/Plymouth in mind. Anytime I have put one of them back on the road most interior controls and handles ended up coming from a wrecking yard or NOS EBay pieces.

Autoholic

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2016, 06:32:04 PM »
Sorry I've been away for a bit. For small stuff like that, honestly I think having the parts made via CNC would be cheaper. If you can get quality originals / NOS parts, you can send them off to a company that will 3D scan them and then reproduce them. It may cost a little to setup, but that might serve your interests better. Sounds more like a one-off interest. I'd only sink money into tooling and equipment if I planned to make a business out of it.

I've been kicking around the idea of getting into some part reproduction, for the FE. One idea I really like is reproducing Ford distributors. If I have a few versions 3D scanned, I could then touch them up digitally and have them cut from billet aluminum. Then some glass bead media blasting and assemble with new internals and a Petronix Ignitor system. It would be for those who wanted a correct distributor, that looks better than original, with new parts. Sure they would cost a bit, but they wouldn't be for just any FE fan. You'd have to want that unique touch and attention to detail.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 06:38:26 PM by Autoholic »
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chris401

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2016, 08:07:18 PM »
That is interesting. As far as I know no one is making shafts. I lost the pictures of the units and there tags, seems the pot only reached 2000° so it would not been useful for steel. I was thinking of sticking to as cast parts and keeping out of parts I could not finish with just a drill press and a file. A good part of my old car customers are Chrysler for some reason. I have worked on them more than old Ford's and Chevy's for some reason. Ford's and Chevy's interior and electrical components are easier to find.

Autoholic

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2016, 11:22:51 PM »
But how much demand do you have for various parts to be reproduced? No matter how you look at it, to create metal parts for reproduction will require some sort of permanent mold. That will cost at least a few hundred. Then whatever materials that get used up in the production process. And finally the metal to create your parts, likely aluminum. So a door handle could end up costing you say $400 to get to production, not including the foundry. If you plan on making 100 door handles, then that makes sense. But you plan on only producing a few door handles, you're better off searching the web for parts from junk yards. It's one thing to carve a handle based on your own design, it's another thing to reproduce a mass produced door handle.

You would first have to create sort sort of permanent mold based on the original door handle. Then use that mold, to pour wax into. Then, take the wax door handle and put it into a ceramic mixture to create a casting mold. Then, melt the wax out of the ceramic casting mold. Now, you can pour molten metal into the ceramic mold. Once it cures, you break the ceramic away. This is a lost wax reproduction method. You could try to create a 2 part ceramic or metal mold that could have molten metal poured into it, and be used again and again. But you have to be careful on mold design and know that there will be more post production machining.

It's a lot of work to reproduce a metal part. You just have to determine is it worth it? If the parts cannot be found else where, then you're stuck with one-off production runs.

I'm currently working towards reproducing defroster vents for Opel GT's. I'm in a holding pattern due to funds being low at the moment and other things needing to be taken care of first. But, sometime next summer I want to be reproducing these vents. It will take some permanent molds out of metal or wood, to create silicon molds (also perm), so that I can pour a 2 part urethane. The finished parts should be pretty close to done, only needing minor post process work. I already know of 20+ people who want them, and 2 companies that are interested in large orders. I'll be able to make a small profit off of it, and when the time comes to purchase an Opel GT of my own (in the near future, again other things come first), I'll need these new vents. Original vents were made with 60's era plastics, so they are crap. No one has tried to reproduce them yet, in large number. So a large demand with zero supply. I already know that the market price cannot go above $100 per set of vents. My goal is $75 including shipping, and an initial production run of 100 sets. That goal does look possible, based on feedback and the initial financial planning I've done. I'm looking at spending ~$1,000 to get to production. ~$120 of material per ~7-8 sets of vents. ~$15 for shipping and packaging. ~1 hour of work per set of vents. All of this, is just a side project and not needed to pay any bills. I should make (profit) somewhere between $30-45 per set of vents, and if I sell 100 vents, that's not bad. All looks possible and has a decent amount of flexibility. Oh, and due to eventually needing new vents anyways, I want to do the production run if for no other reason than my own restoration project I'll eventually get into. Yes, I'm a certain kind of sick car nut, thinking about collecting and making parts for a restoration of a car I don't even own yet.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 11:34:48 PM by Autoholic »
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chris401

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2016, 12:31:16 AM »
That is car specific info I was looking for. Having a good idea of what restoration parts are in high demand. For cast parts 100-500 pieces would be a minimum or I would not spend the resources. Parts I know are in need are Ford pickup bed floors. I do not believe anyone is making any. Another is distributor shafts. I posted the distributor shaft idea on another forum and was kind of surprised it did not get any responses. As far as I know the Fords are in short supply and no one is making them for the Grant Spalding and others.

Autoholic

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2016, 05:33:25 PM »
For the Ford truck beds, are you talking wood or metal? There already are some companies that make kits to create your own wooden floor.

The distributor shafts could be needed, and not needed at the same time. It depends on the engine. Is there a modern replacement for the distributor? If there is, then it doesn't make any sense to reproduce just a shaft, especially if it can be taken from a new distributor. If there aren't any modern replacements for the distributor, then I'd say the need is to reproduce the whole distributor. Looking at my interested into reproducing the 65-69 Ford FE distributor, my aim would be to use modern parts made by a large company. So that the only thing I need to worry about, is the body of the distributor. 3D scanning a good distributor body, cleaning it up (or paying someone to clean it up) in a CAD program and sending it off to a company to be created out of billet aluminum is how I'd go about it. Then blast it with glass bead, will give it the right look while still looking impossibly perfect. Sure, it won't look like it was made in a foundry but that's the point and few people would ever know either. You'd have to have a sharp eye to look for mold separation lines on a part that is largely hidden anyways.

Going back to one-off production runs, a 3D scanner (or sending the part to a company to have 3D scanned) will go a long way. You can 3D scan the part, then have a CNC machine create the part. For low volume production, this is going to be more useful. I'm looking into purchasing a 3D scanner myself, that has been designed for private use (not crazy expensive) yet accurate. I'm sure it will require a decent amount of learning in order to use it correctly. But, I'll be able to get accurate 3D models of the defroster vents. Then I can design the molds. This method eliminates the guess work of using rulers and protractors to get rough dimensions in order to reverse engineer a part. I'll have a company create the master molds (CNC) and once I have the master molds, I can create the silicon molds. The benefit of this way of doing things, I can use the master to create more than one silicon mold. So I can have multiple molds going, without increasing the cost all that much (maybe $100?) to get into production. The bulk of the cost will be with the master mold and CAD work / 3D scanner.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 05:54:37 PM by Autoholic »
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chris401

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2016, 07:05:17 PM »
Steel bed floors. There are panels out there but the ribs are not the original spacing. You have put some serious time and planing into your idea. In my situation I don't have the resources to invest nor the trust that a company or individual to fulfill there contract.

Autoholic

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2016, 08:04:08 PM »
I just know that if a part I create passes my standards, I don't see anyone complaining. So, build it and they will come. With the vents, there is serious interest behind a new production run. With the distributor idea, that would be more of something I did for myself and if I happened to build any for sale, that's just icing on the cake. That idea though is a long way off, and would require getting my hands on some expensive distributors. Pretty much any 65-69 Ford FE dizzy will run you $400.
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Falcon67

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2016, 03:56:12 PM »
There is a ton of info on the web about casting small parts.  Search "gingery", charcoal furnace and such.  People do it in the yard, no fancy setups.

http://gingerybooks.com/

The miniature train people/machinists do it a lot.  As for distributors, casting might go for the body but the things I see for replacements are CNC produced.  CNC production has a very high part yield where casting - even "pro level" does not.  You want 100 good parts, you might have to make 110, 120 or so to get your hundred.  Distributor shafts could be machined from stock. 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 03:59:41 PM by Falcon67 »

chris401

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2016, 10:56:39 PM »
 5%-10% waste is what I remember from my nights at Siemens Energy & Automation.
There is a ton of info on the web about casting small parts.  Search "gingery", charcoal furnace and such.  People do it in the yard, no fancy setups.

http://gingerybooks.com/

The miniature train people/machinists do it a lot.  As for distributors, casting might go for the body but the things I see for replacements are CNC produced.  CNC production has a very high part yield where casting - even "pro level" does not.  You want 100 good parts, you might have to make 110, 120 or so to get your hundred.  Distributor shafts could be machined from stock.

Falcon67

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2016, 09:07:21 AM »
I spent 20 years in mfg, working for a precision instrument company.  Several of the machines used investment cast aluminum doors.  Some batches had a very high rejection rate.  It got harder and harder over the years to find anyone that would even bid on casting 100 6" x 6" door frames.  Eventually gave up and went to injection mold plastics.  The guy that originally worked on the new 351C block had a hell of a time finding anyone to cast short runs of blocks.  We think "yea, I could sell a few of those" and the few companies available are "10,000 pieces sure we'll talk".  There really is evidence that some overseas transactions are not all about cost, some are about finding someone to work with.

chris401

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2016, 11:43:15 AM »
That is basically the answer I got from Mercury Tool & Machine when I looked into getting some gears made for my DNEII box. They kept my gears and case for 24 hours, whether they looked at them or not I don't know. They said the minimum production number was 500 pieces. There are 7 or 8 gears in the unit. Sense my OD unit is the weaker case there would never be a demand for a high volume reproduction parts. I am no longer in a position to do anything with it but if someone else were interested and knew if the stronger case used the same gears I would lend mine out.

Autoholic

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Re: I Came Across A Couple Of Small Foundries
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2016, 06:53:16 PM »
For small, one-off production runs of anything, including gears, CNC will be your friend. You don't have to use a typical production method anymore, for almost anything. There are plenty of companies that can cut pretty strong metals with a CNC machine, and it doesn't matter if that part is made only once.  Traditional means to create a set of gears isn't exactly one-off friendly. I'm sure you can find some companies that will create you any gear you want, at any volume but most of these companies are large scale. It's a waste of their time to bother with one-off gears. The companies with a variety of CNC machines, that create parts based on a CAD file, will be far more custom part friendly.

http://p.protolabs.com/
http://www.spectronmanufacturing.com/
http://www.quickparts.3dsystems.com/
http://www.rushgears.com/
http://www.cgearinc.com/
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 06:59:11 PM by Autoholic »
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