428 with 25 yo MSD ignition intermittent starting

[seagravedriver]

I have a 428 in a 69 Mustang that has been working fine for the last 25 years. A couple of days ago, my son ran the car out of gas about a block from our house. It did not start after adding fuel, plenty of fuel. We pulled #1 plug and wire out, and it had good spark, and the engine started right off. We shut it down, and replaced the plug and wire, and the engine would not start. We pulled #1 plug and wire again, and it started, put it back, and no start. Pulled it again, it started, and then it was replaced, and the car started with no problem. Drove it for a few blocks, and it stalled and would not start, (50 feet from where it ran out of gas)! Now there is no spark, an of course no start. Its getting fuel, and the coil, distributor and the ignition box is a MSD, M-12199-C301 that was sold by Ford back in the day.

We are thinking the ignition box or perhaps the coil? I have lurked here for a few years, and finally registered, so this is a first post. Many thanks. 

[machoneman]

A spare coil would be easier. If not, bypass the MSD entirely and see if it runs. My very first production run MSD 7 failed after 39 years! It was new in 1977! On 3 cars, 2 dragsters. Maybe near 80,000 mile on the cars and say 35+ runs on the dragsters!   

[cjshaker]

A spare coil would be easier. If not, bypass the MSD entirely and see if it runs.

Uh, Bob, it's probably not going to run with the ignition box bypassed.

This is kind of an odd problem, but I'd be leaning towards the box itself. I recently was coming back from a long cruise when my car shut down about 4 miles from home. It started about 10 miles before when I noticed a glitch showing up on the tach, but I couldn't feel it in the engine. I was in too big a hurry since it was getting close to dark, so I just ran home and got the trailer to get it back. I SHOULD have done a quick check of the box by jumping the 2 wires at the distributor. When I tried it a couple days later, it started back up and has been fine since. NOW I don't know for sure what the real issue was, box, coil or pick-up.

I said that to say, have a spare pick-up, coil and box handy in case you ever get stranded. You could try jumping the distributor wires, but by the sound of your problem, that may not tell you much. Intermittent problems are the worse! Very hard to diagnose until something gives out entirely. I can't see why your #1 wire or plug would be causing the box to fail, and it surely shouldn't have any effect on your coil or pick-up, so it's a crap shoot as to what the real problem is. Have you checked all grounds to make sure they are good?

[machoneman]

A spare coil would be easier. If not, bypass the MSD entirely and see if it runs.

Uh, Bob, it's probably not going to run with the ignition box bypassed.

Respectfully, I beg to differ!

When my truly ancient MSD-7 failed and after a short tow job home, the next day I did bypass entirely the old box (bless her old soul!) and the engine fired on the 2nd crank rotation. In fact, MSD recommends this same procedure if the box itself is suspect. What one is actually doing is reverting to a straight OEM Ford type ignition system (i.e. no amplification nor multi-spark) with a coil, points, Petronix or a Mallory Unilite in my case. 

btw, I did mail it into MSD and they were shocked that such an old box survived all those years of abuse. But, it was so old they could not or would not rebuild it.

[seagravedriver]

Here is a side note that cjshaker made me think of. The wire loom that is supposed to go to my tach fell out from under the dash years ago, (I never hooked up the tach, no money back then, and no knowledge of how to get the old tach to work with the "new tech"). Recently, it shorted, as the clutch was hitting it, and caused a bit of a fright and a bit of smoke on the floor of my car. Anything to do the problem? Did I cook something by causing the abrasions and then the short?

[Lenz]

I have a 428 in a 69 Mustang that has been working fine for the last 25 years. A couple of days ago, my son ran the car out of gas about a block from our house. It did not start after adding fuel, plenty of fuel. We pulled #1 plug and wire out, and it had good spark, and the engine started right off. We shut it down, and replaced the plug and wire, and the engine would not start. We pulled #1 plug and wire again, and it started, put it back, and no start. Pulled it again, it started, and then it was replaced, and the car started with no problem. Drove it for a few blocks, and it stalled and would not start, (50 feet from where it ran out of gas)! Now there is no spark, an of course no start. Its getting fuel, and the coil, distributor and the ignition box is a MSD, M-12199-C301 that was sold by Ford back in the day.

We are thinking the ignition box or perhaps the coil? I have lurked here for a few years, and finally registered, so this is a first post. Many thanks.

Unreal.  I say that because last weekend while talking with my brother about his '57 Massey tractor he complained of exactly the same thing with the same remedy (when warm you have to pull #1 wire and it would light right off, would not start otherwise).  Suffice it to say there's no MSD in the Massey .  He further stated that if he stayed completely away from the fuel he found it would sometimes eventually barely catch.  Know this doesn't help your situation, but I'm looking forward to the input you receive-

[e philpott]

unless points are triggering the Box , I don't see how it would run with box unplugged .... there would be no ground path to the coil with box unplugged

[machoneman]

Guys, the engine ran years ago w/o any MSD. I think you missed my point.

Something inside the ditzy (points, Petrronix module, Unilite module, et al) is the triggering mechanism. Take the MSD box off line AND re-wire the coil wires to ENTIRELY bypass the box to 'prove' if it runs or not.

[thatdarncat]

Guys, the engine ran years ago w/o any MSD. I think you missed my point.

Something inside the ditzy (points, Petrronix module, Unilite module, et al) is the triggering mechanism. Take the MSD box off line AND re-wire the coil wires to ENTIRELY bypass the box to 'prove' if it runs or not.

Bob, respectfully, you're missing the forum gangs point, the Motorsports M-12199-C301 was basically a fancy Duraspark II box built by MSD that also had a rev limiter. It had to be used with a Duraspark or Motorsports distributor with a magnetic pickup. Plug and play to replace a Duraspark ignition module. It's not the "Other" Ford Motorsports box that is a MSD 6 with a Ford Motorsports label. 

[machoneman]

O.k. got it. I thought it was a separate MSD box wired into an existing '69-'70 Stang's OEM coil and point ignition system ala' my '70. Thanks as I was barking up the wrong tree....woof, woof! 

[seagravedriver]

We are sending the box back to MSD, hope to get that taken care of, they think that is most likely the problem.

Lenz, I have a 51 Forn 8N that is not starting right now as well. No MSD box there. Heck, 6v positive ground! I'll keep this up to date as things change.

[428Marauder]

This is why I keep my 428 old school, well, besides the aluminum carb, radiator and electric fans.

[428Marauder]

I'll tell you how I run. Took me forever to get this car to stop puking trans fluid, overheating and having vapor lock issues, but I got it all pretty nailed down after replacing just about everything. Was running on an electric fuel pump when I got it, I went back to manual.

Aluminum radiator, Aluminum Holley with the electric choke, 2 electric fans, trans intercooler, and if I don't run the trans intercooler, engine gets hot, pukes trans fluid out the front seal. C6.

I have heard other people have the same issues in this climate. Trans gets too hot. Especially, if, ya know, you got a lead foot, like I do.

Anyway, before I get too off the beaten track, these guys are great here. Have helped me a ton, really happy with how my motor runs, now, finally. 428 is a high performance motor though, you gotta tune it right, keep ot cool, get it running right and then ... well, you know what fun that motor is when it's happy.

I like it old school, but that's just me. I considered electronic ignition many times but .. Yah know, new points still only cost like $3 at Autozone.

[428Marauder]

IMHO you should really only use electronic ignition on a fuel injected car. That may be totally wrong, but ...I keep it simple.

What kind of carb/intake are you running?

[428Marauder]

Yeah, electric fuel pump wired right to the ignition when I got it ... original 1968 carb, I just held on too long. It got like 5 MPG, but it ran. Until the fire. Flooded, spark trying to start it, choke melted. Friggin electric fuel pump snding more gas ... i was freaking out. Wish I had video of that 3 minutes. Be funny ... now. That OG carb I had a lot of problems with.

Replaced with brand new Holley and I am just thrilled with how much better the car runs. Was maybe $350 .... Best money I ever spent.

There's pretty much 2 versions, aluminum 4 bbl for a 428. I thnik you pay like an extra $15 or something for the electric choke, so I decided to get that. Note that the instructions say, wiring of the electric choke is NOT optional. I tested that ... still ran pretty well, before I wired the choke, so if you don't need the electric choke .... i would still pay the $15 extra for it though, and also wire it up.

And yeah, old school dizzy. Points, plugs, maybe new plug wires, ya know, standard stuff man. You don't need electronic ignition, if you got it setup right.