IS THE $ CRANK STRONGER THAN TODAYS ?

[HolmanMoodyStroppeGang]

So I wondered?  You posted a general question, quoting, 'a guys' opinion.  And you have a lot of fast FE guys here who's opinion you can find in the search box.

What crank will you go for and why?

I wanted to clarify a little that the term 'cast' crank is usually used to describe the plentiful cast iron units,  The FORD cast crank is a lot stronger than many believe for certain builds.

Today, you have cast iron, NOS style, and cast steel, often from China.  So the added choice is nice.

I am one of many who have to say some nice things about FORD's ability to design and build a great iron crank.     A lot of pump gas FE's can do fine with a iron crank.   We raced them for FORD and had no failures.

Cast FORD cranks won in off shore racing, off road many many times, won Championships, year after year, and have better 'lubricity' or oil retention ability for many street or hot street engines.  They can retain and sweat oil molecules and run smooth in many start stop settings, our FORD Engineers lectured, so, the crank can do well for many

A 390, stock, or close to stock, maintained well, oil, filter, tune up, and run within it's design parameters?  In a car, Mustang, Ranchero, Truck,,,,they earned a real good reputation for going and going.   We rebuild so many, at around 100,000 miles, with little wear on that cast crank, or the bores.  If you beat them to death, different deal of course

A whole bunch of Drag Team 428s did great with a cast iron crank too. We built a lot of Drag Team 428 based cars at Stroppe. or serviced the engines.  For a good decade after, these same cars and owners, or successors, brought us the FE's to freshen up.  None needed a special billet steel crank

The 428s we raced and did fine with that became a blown FE? Say for a Boat? A Rail?  A sand drag car?   a Super fast door car?   Those got a Billet.....

We did get to use the very rare forged steel FORD 428 cranks for the top builds, they came in rough machines, mains turned and ground, we finished the rod journals.  We got a few blanks.  These were so rare, and raced from day one, few survived.   The last 2 we found were 40-40, one was 40-50 if I recall(Ground 3-4-5 times, ie, super used up)....and both were cracked

More cast FORD cranks whipped Chevys and DeSotos too.  We raced NASCAR,,,,,and did real well, using a Dry Sump, and a trick or two, to make around 600 hp, wide open mostly, for a 500 mile race. Ford Racing did not rush to provide us forged steel cranks for the BOSS 351's.  You had to spend a bunch of money, around 1500 in 1970-71, 72 dollars(Maybe 6,000 today?)  for a billet

A nitride cast nodular crank, like a Boss 351,,,,is a nice piece

So, many kept it short here, maybe they can add their experience with a FE Forged unit

Just trying to close the loop with relevant engineering info.

Do you plan on a Chinese crank, finished in Torrance, CA.? Or a FORD unit?   Or maybe save and get a true race crank?Crower, Sonny Bryant or Velasco?   Velasco makes a real pretty line of billet FE cranks

Scat has a forging, call them.....again, you get 2 choices,,,,rat rods, or FE rods

We preferred the 392 for 1,000 HP and up more or less...

But people forget.....for the winning FE's in NASCAR,,,,the SK Crank and wider SK rods were needed to win and win.   

Many still really like the crank pin size, too bad they did not make more

SK cranks were so good, we raced them to death, one by one....usually SuperCharged


To Dale, hope all is well, it is always good to answer the questions posted, and cite your examples, experiences, opinions and what you have seen or done. The question here is FORD vs other cranks.

How many have you run and what do you suggest? And why?

 A tech forum is a great place to focus on power, fast builds, reliable work and results,,,,or methods.  Many have zero time for bickering, personal attacks, and all of that nonsense. May we please focus on engineering, power, winning, or building nice Fords?  Email me anything else, away from here. Give me time to reply sir.

Kudos to JAY for having a fast place to work, share, learn, meet,greet, buy/sell and have a nice time.

Happy Sunday and Happy 4th to all

Have 3 videos of a 3,000 HP FE for soon

[HolmanMoodyStroppeGang]

A decade or two back when Hot Rod Magazine did one of their shocking facts on Top/Fuel motors they mentioned grinding the cams 0,5,10,15 degrees different at the journals so that the cam would match up under full power to the wound up/twisted crank under full load... Back then they were only making 5,000HP.

Happy 4th weekend to all of the Floridian FORD folks.   Hope all is well Robert,

The solution was a larger diameter cam core.   In Fuel hard parts, often, if breakage or over cycling is causing less than optimal power or reliability, Crew Chiefs and Block/engine makers meet, exchange ideas and make modifications.

Excess torsional vibration, in this case, twist, a larger or tougher part often comes forward

A relevant FE example would be JAY double pinning his stub cam to insure reliability for his specific build.  Added race load caused a design revision, more or less.  Better heads and a lot of lift creates a load, so do the required longer /stiffer springs, so a weak point can rear it's ugly head. Doubling the sheer strength in his case, and more, is the logic solution. 

Often it seems, too much flex, yields a tougher material, in a bigger size

So check in to the evolution of, say, a KB 1 through a KB 10, then the AJPE  (Alan Johnson) parts, and the VENOLIA    Joe Pisano JP!      JP stands for Joe Pisano

Pisano flew at LIONS DRAG STRIP where many of us grew up.   His protégé and Driver, Dale Pulde, just helped Dan Horan Jr set a Mile per hour record at the last Nostalgia event. Over 270 MPH from a 426 Chrysler,,with only a 6-71    and only a 18 gallon   pump

We all fixed the cam twist issues

HOWARD Cams, Donny Johansen, made hundred of billet cores for many main Nitro Cam folks, like ENGLE....and others 

On twist, here is the latest for you cats

The front pulley, drives the huge blower, over 10,000.   The keys were sheering a lot, but the vibration was welding the crank pulleys to the crank snout

Imagine the brute force needed, for these 2 parts to friction weld a little

Solution?   Top teams have splines there now....

Imagine stripping and rebuilding the engine, make a pass, come back, crank pulley stuck, lift in a new short block? To just 'answer' (Make the next round)

Whole lotta shakin goin' on.......

Der Andy

Last example from Don Long, the legendary Dragster engineer, builder and designer.  Recall, the fast cars of the 50s and 60s ran a 55 OLDS rear end,,,,,until they could no longer take the beating.

A guys asked him, at a meeting we had about a resto....the Super Snake...'Don, why did you guys stop using the 55 OLDS or PONTIAC rear ends"

Don says' ''Because they were breaking and people were getting hurt''

Quoting Don again recently...'We went to a 8 3/4'' Chrysler like typical Drag racers,,,they are bigger''.  He is very quick to add..'In racing, bigger is not always better''.  '"In this case, it was'

Hope this helps you BB, or pals elsewhere

Also, thanks for all of the nice emails. 

[Gregwill16]

Tom, you said something that caught my attention. You mentioned King bearing had 20, 30 and 40 under bearings that allowed further use of the Nascar crank? Did I read that right and are they still available? Because I dropped of a Nascar crank and rods at my machine shop awhile back that was already at .020 by quick measurements and was trying to figure out the best option.

[HolmanMoodyStroppeGang]

Hello Gregwill

Email me if you wish, have we met? Not sure, meet so many nice people online.

King makes mains 20-30-40 under, on the SK crank?  std  FORD and the plus 0004

The old REDS and BLUES game.   

I got ahold of KINGS head guy, through FORD connections. I asked him, why dont you make us some -010-020 SK NASCAR crank bearings please, please, pretty please?  You know?   One batch, or run, might supply guys for 20 years out here in FE land?

Answer was?   We can do you 500 sets.>>>LOL !!     500 sets if I recall....a huge run...

Nobody is going to park that kind of money

So my suggestion is.......

Sell me the crank and I will put it in a blown car..hahaha    They are very rare

What we did then and now is?

Turn the rods to 392 Chrysler size and buy rods,,,,

But don't hand a super rare crank to a guy who never did this, I would n't

Get it to a guy who has done hundreds, I send my SK cranks to HENRY VELASCO because he has ground so many SK cranks for blown use.

A real good custom crank co can do it,so consider this.   You want the guy to get the radious and cheeks correct

OK? You dress the wheel special. And you usually use a race crank grinder that has the bigger radius already set, since it does race cranks, not street rebuilds

Get the rods first to measure the width

Pair the rods and measure 2 at a time. If they all are the same, great. If not, we clamp then in a surface grinder, to match them all perfect, all equal. THEN, tell the crank man your width. Then, you get the side clearance nice

For the new guys, if you use a 392 rod, if it makes more than, say, 400 HP, maybe 350, stay away from a stock Dodge 392 rod.  We all had to 'box' them back when. I still use some boxed rods for rebuilds to be period correct. Bones Balough just did a blown 392 with old school boxed rods...LOL

Choose a H beam, from a good vendor,,,CROWER and CARILLO are world class

Old Scat may have an import for you

Now there is a big trick to using a 392 rod. I never hear anybody mention it. Use the trick, and win. Don't do the trick, and 'There she blows' in a race setting

how about we let another member, who runs a 92 size rod chime in

Who wants to explain the 392 rod trick for use on a SK crank?

Maybe Dale or Doug can do this for us, or West Coast maybe?

Email any time

So, I have an FE on the stand, gotta work please

392 rod size is strong. Rat size gets too close to the oil holes and lightening holes for may of us

Street gas? probably ok

Last quick thing is important to me and my old pals.  FORD spent millions racing FE's and sponsoring teams.  We tried many things and learned by racing and winning, or not.  All of the tricks my mentors there were kind enough to pass along, and share, and hand down, helped a lot of fast FORD for years to come.   If me and my pals can remember some of it, get it on the web, say thanks, and send an idea along, great.   I just seems wholly illogical and shameful maybe, to let some of the tricks fade away or be forgotten. If you remember some of what FORD raced with and did, the next guys, and maybe the next, might not have to blow up a bunch of parts, and waste a bunch of money, re learning what some older guys learned decades ago. Thus, we decided to share some things a while back. Many many other guys around can do the very same thing. Hope they do.

Our good pal Art Crisman was one of the few guys left who really knew his way around a flathead.  He worked for us too, at Stroppes.   A while back, 2 Brits, paid him close to 100,000 to spend months, teaching them a lot of Flathead tricks and do a how to book.   He set them up to do nice flatheads for any Hot Rodder, on gas, good, or pump.  He got them the special tools too, tappet wrenches, seat cutters, many of us still have them.    Some day the FE guys from the 1st or 2nd generation will pull the chutes too. Done, rest well.  My pals from HMS kind of want whatever we can share to help. Never trying to harm, never really.   If what some of us did, simply get's you thinking, to do much much better than we did, wonderful.  All of us are exceedingly proud of each and every FE builder who raises the bar, again and again

Next topic

By the way,,,to 427 HISS who has many design questions, hope we all helped?  May we please see your COBRA minus engine?  What type?  How finished is she?

I agree with the Cool cat who said, slide a 390 in her for now and go have a blast, while saving for the main engine.  That is smart, we also do that to have fun while making the next step up the power level.

A stout 390, with good heads,in a light Cobra? They can RIP.....remember,,,a 289 COBRA  RIPPED(Fast)     So go build a nice, NASCAR style, soild cam, high winding 390 for that COBRA, have fun? \

You need to really learn to drive a COBRA.  You have to spend time to really get a feel for one, and make the most of it.  Slightly less power is a good way to build up to 600 ponies.  I would also see if a nice clean 428 core is out there. 

Good luck

[cjshaker]

Who wants to explain the 392 rod trick for use on a SK crank?

Maybe Dale or Doug can do this for us, or West Coast maybe?

Sorry, Tom. I know nothing about the 392 trick. I've never ran an SK crank and don't plan to when there are much better options.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you and when did you start to work for HMS? I'm sure others would like to know your history with them as well.

[jayb]

I've had to delete a couple of messages on this thread, which I really hate to do.  Let's not post messages that are prone to starting arguments, and let's all be adults and not respond to that kind of provocation if you think it exists.  Thanks, Jay

[gdaddy01]

thanks , Jay

[427HISS]

Thank you !   

[Posi67]

Yup.. thanks Jay. 

[cjshaker]

Hopefully, my 2 legitimate questions aren't construed as trying to start an argument. I am genuinely interested in the answers, as I'm sure others are.

I'm not sure, however, why the conversation always turns to blown nitro cammers. I don't think the OP is planning on this sort of thing, or anybody else here for that matter. Using the NASCAR crank is just a bad idea for any type of street or typical drag scene. Heavy hard-to-find rods, non-existent bearing suppliers are 2 major reasons why. You can find the occasional set of bearings on Ebay, but if the crank ever needs turned or even dressed, it's done.

[Posi67]

I agree with Doug on the crank issue. Stock Ford is about as good as anyone will need and there are plenty of nice aftermarket choices that are reasonably priced without getting into something exotic and more expensive than the rest of the build combined.

As for your legitimate questions...... no comment at this time but nice try.     

[Falcon67]

Hey, that topic ran off for a bit, now it's back. 

I can tell you what's I've seen with my 351Cs.  All the stockers are cast, I have never bothered to source one of the "CJ" units with the Brinell test, etc.  I have spun them to 7000 using light pistons and to 6500 a LOT with old heavy TRWs and stock rods.  The last real blow up was a lot exhaust valve head - took out the block, one head, bent two rods and trashed two pistons.  Engine was a little north of 3 grand after the hole appeared in the cylinder wall the motor stopped instantly.  Put the crank on support blocks and it checked .0005 TIR.  Gave it a buff and it's gone at least 3000 more passes in the Wife's Mustang.  6500 twice per pass.

I'm going to be building a motor for the dragster, not afraid to use a cast Scat part.  I'll be under 600Hp anyway, so on a 351C the block will go long before a crank, assuming there's no built in fault.

[Gregwill16]

I agree as well guys but I got mine in a package deal and I love to find uses for old Ford parts. He let on like he knew of a reasonable option that I didn't know about but apparently not.

[Falcon67]

Here's a real down side to "real Ford parts".  They are getting a bit scarce.  I was - was - building a stock stroke 351C for the dragster.  Good 10/10 stock crank, stock rods with polished beams, light Probe pistons.  My screwup, did not add up all the numbers before dropping $$$ on crank balance, rod work, etc.  So now we come to assembly and the crank is .001 too large on the rod journals.  Nobody here has the equipment to remove .001 from a crank and keep the journals round.  I have some high level contacts - such that a call was made to Calles.  Even they could not work that on their high end equipment.  SO - now do I spend ANOTHER $300 plus on the stock crank to go .020 on the rods and a whole new set of bearings?  Or go aftermarket and start over.  The election is to scrap this stock junk and get on with new stuff.

Case #2 - old 351C, internal balance, stock stroke, H beams, etc, etc.  Crank loses the thrust surface, second racing season.  So now - go spend ANOTHER $800~1000 on a stocker that I need to dig up used, or from now on use a kit such that if there is a problem with the crank I can call someone and just order another.  Plus get more displacement out of the kit. 

[WConley]

Despite what has been mentioned here, those NASCAR crank bearings are just about unobtanium.  Even 25 years ago they were a bear to find, when my friend Tim had that setup in his '67 Shelby.  He ended up getting the LeMans rods machined with new tangs to run standard-width bearings, which kind of defeats the purpose! 

The engine ran fine, but why deal with all that extra weight when the new stuff is SO much better?  Reciprocating mass is a huge factor in stressing the block at high RPM, so you're way better off going as light as possible when shooting for livable HP.