First Fire - 445

[Yellow Truck]

I'm attaching a couple of Youtube links. We did get her to fire today after a few missteps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoiOP0HbXXs

At first it wouldn't catch at all, so we set the timing by getting it to TDC and confirming we were at the top of the compression stroke, and we found that at 12 degrees of advance the distributor was too far clockwise and touching the thermostat housing so we pulled it and repositioned it. We got it to cough once but it wouldn't fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_r2iRHPiZU

After a few more timing adjustments we could get it to catch, but it was too rich to run. We backed all the idle mixture screws in and tried it with them all seated, and it was still to rich. We turned them all out 1/4 turn and rotated the electric choke until it was out of the picture, and it fired and we could get it to hold an idle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hXx34wFvP0

No leaks, well, only the headers that are smoking like mad but we will get to them later. After a few more adjustments to the idle setting and timing and it was running fairly evenly. Still showing a bit of white smoke here but that was gone in a couple of minutes, probably fuel left in the exhaust and muffler from our early attempts to start it. We backed the idle down as we reduced the fuel, and we took it for a short first drive.
https://youtu.be/DQ0Xmjho8Lc

It still has some issues we need to sort before we break it in:

• No engine temp readings - I put in a new water temp sensor but the wires are pretty old. Can anyone tell me how to test the sensor installed in the intake?
• At idle the vacuum is only 5 inches of mercury - this seems very low. We are running a 234/240 duration cam with 110 separation - it has hydraulic roller lifters. With only 5 inches it follows that the 6.5 power valve is too big.
• When we are driving it there is an intermittent high pitched whistle from the carb - it almost sounds like a squeak.
• It runs rich above idle, it pulls strongly at initial throttle response but then stumbles. I'm not sure where to start - changing the air bleeds, the power valve, or do we go back and reduce the jets?

It will take a few days but we should get an O2 sensor in the pipes and get some better data.

[jmlay]

Squeak from the carb sounds like a vacuum leak.

[My427stang]

I'm attaching a couple of Youtube links. We did get her to fire today after a few missteps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoiOP0HbXXs

At first it wouldn't catch at all, so we set the timing by getting it to TDC and confirming we were at the top of the compression stroke, and we found that at 12 degrees of advance the distributor was too far clockwise and touching the thermostat housing so we pulled it and repositioned it. We got it to cough once but it wouldn't fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_r2iRHPiZU

After a few more timing adjustments we could get it to catch, but it was too rich to run. We backed all the idle mixture screws in and tried it with them all seated, and it was still to rich. We turned them all out 1/4 turn and rotated the electric choke until it was out of the picture, and it fired and we could get it to hold an idle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hXx34wFvP0

No leaks, well, only the headers that are smoking like mad but we will get to them later. After a few more adjustments to the idle setting and timing and it was running fairly evenly. Still showing a bit of white smoke here but that was gone in a couple of minutes, probably fuel left in the exhaust and muffler from our early attempts to start it. We backed the idle down as we reduced the fuel, and we took it for a short first drive.
https://youtu.be/DQ0Xmjho8Lc

It still has some issues we need to sort before we break it in:

• No engine temp readings - I put in a new water temp sensor but the wires are pretty old. Can anyone tell me how to test the sensor installed in the intake?
• At idle the vacuum is only 5 inches of mercury - this seems very low. We are running a 234/240 duration cam with 110 separation - it has hydraulic roller lifters. With only 5 inches it follows that the 6.5 power valve is too big.
• When we are driving it there is an intermittent high pitched whistle from the carb - it almost sounds like a squeak.
• It runs rich above idle, it pulls strongly at initial throttle response but then stumbles. I'm not sure where to start - changing the air bleeds, the power valve, or do we go back and reduce the jets?

It will take a few days but we should get an O2 sensor in the pipes and get some better data.

I would be careful of fixing too many things at once

First - Low vacuum and poor running sounds like retarded timing.  Check your initial, set it at 12-14 and run through your firing order again to make sure you don't have any wires crossed

Second - Seating the idle a/f screws won't allow it to idle and will run horrible because it won't have any fuel until you get into transition.  If it is 4 corner idle, set them all at 3/4 for now, if it is primaries only, put them at 1 1/8 out

Third - don't go inside the carb yet, if you start trying to fix this with jets and power valves you'll be chasing your tail.

Last - To check your temp gauge, with the key in the run position, take the wire of the temp sender and ground it to the intake.  If the needle pegs, the sender is bad.  If the needle doesn't peg, its the wiring or the gauge itself

I think the majority of your issues are due to retarded timing, that will bring the vacuum way up, however, as I said before, check your firing order.  Old dudes accidentally cross plug wires all the time, even experienced ones, seeing it did some odd things, check yours.

[My427stang]

I will tell you though, now that I listened to the videos and saw the smoke.  That's a LOT of black smoke.

Go through the motions I listed, I doubt you'll find a crossed wire, it sounded pretty good. 

Make sure your float level is set correctly, and remember, it is a tuning tool, you can go lower.

Did the motor backfire at all?  You may have a blown power valve, not the wrong power valve.

[Yellow Truck]

Thanks for the thoughts Ross. We set the timing with a light, it was set at 13 degrees. The front bowl level is about 1/4 up the sight glass, the back one is just shy of the middle. It backfires very little, once when we were driving it and it was transitioning from steady state to 3/4 throttle and back to steady. Very little during the early firing but it did once or twice.

We also had a bit of dieseling but after driving it she shut down clean. We took the brake booster line off the intake and stopped it up with a cover, and then connected it, but there was no difference. I'm thinking if we have a leak it may be between the spacer and either the carb or intake. Given that is is a used Holley Street Dominator it is more likely down at the bottom.

I can say that even running rough as she is, she smacks harder than the 410 I took out.

I should mention that in the video where it first fires (the third video) you can hear the whistle - as I said it sounds like a squeak.

[My427stang]

Carbs can make funny noises sometimes, especially if it's not running perfectly and the air cleaner is off.

So, for now, ignore the squeak, and ignore the dieseling.  Likely the dieseling is because you have something else set up wrong and the primaries are too far open (don't act on that yet)

So if I can butt in to how you chase this, I think you need to start with the black smoke only.  Because, that much fuel can cause damage over time

A couple of questions

1 - Does the choke work properly?  I noticed he had screwdriver in hand with the choke partially closed.  Two problems with that, one, if the choke is working, the idle speed screw shouldn't be, it should be on fast idle and that screw not touching.  If it was touching, then the primaries were WAY too far open and we need to chase that

2 - If the backfires were significant, you may have lost a power valve.  It's not as bad on modern cars as the old days, but that would cause it to run rich.  if it just popped a little, it may not be bad

3 - What color cam on the accelerator pump, and did you adjust it at all?  Not saying you should,  just asking

4 - Do you know your timing pointer and balancer marks are correct?

So, here is what I would do today if you reattack.  Steps 1 and 2 are critical, you can't jump ahead

1 - Focus on the water temp gauge and choke, make sure both work properly.  I wouldn't even start the truck until I figured that out
2 - Make sure it's full of water or antifreeze
3 - Once it's hot, idling, , the thermostat opened properly and it was refilled as required and the choke is fully open, idle it as low as you can.  Check initial timing again, with the vacuum hose off the distributor, and set it to 12-14 if it isn't still there.
4 - Adjust all 4 idle screws for best idle.  Should be within 1/8 either way of 3/4 turns from bottom (Again if choke didn't fully open, not even worth trying)
4 - Reset idle speed if it changed
5 - Check to see if the ported vacuum is alive at idle.  (Broken record here, but choke has to be open, because that nipple should be dead at idle, but on fast idle it will stay open and provide vacuum)
6 - If ported vacuum is alive, and choke is fully open, then raise idle on the secondaries and lower the idle screw on the throttle to get back to where you want it.  You may have to do it a few times to get it where you want it and have ported vacuum dead at idle.

See how it does on black smoke.

I would not chase anything else right now, doing that will rule out you being too deep in the primaries and a choke problem

I'll be off and on the computer all day if you have questions

[Yellow Truck]

Ross, a little "butting in" is what is asked. My buddy, who has been very generous, is a diesel mechanic for Caterpillar and does a lot of projects, including a 521 build from a 460 in 68 F100, but his carb experience is a little bit limited (he runs a 1050 CFM Holley on his 521).

We agree with you that the temp sensor is our first priority. We drove it once around the block yesterday, most of the time we had a temperature gun on it in the driveway. Second is to get the fuel leaned out so it stops smoking. We will be putting an O2 sensor on it.

The choke was an early problem so we disconnected it and took it out of play. We will turn our attention back to it when we have the rest of the carb working better.

It is full of antifreeze. I filled it with the front jacked and could hear it "glugging" as I filled it. When the thermostat opened the engine didn't really belch any air.

The balancer is new PowerBond part, the timing pointer and timing cover came off the stock block, and as we played with the timing it settled in happiest at 13.

I have some father's day obligations today, my dad is 95 and we are taking to my brother's place, but I'll check the water gauge as you suggested this morning.

We didn't change the cam on the accelerator pump, if I understand you it came with three secondary linkages and we put it on as it came. I'll confirm which one that is.

[My427stang]

Ross, a little "butting in" is what is asked. My buddy, who has been very generous, is a diesel mechanic for Caterpillar and does a lot of projects, including a 521 build from a 460 in 68 F100, but his carb experience is a little bit limited (he runs a 1050 CFM Holley on his 521).

We agree with you that the temp sensor is our first priority. We drove it once around the block yesterday, most of the time we had a temperature gun on it in the driveway. Second is to get the fuel leaned out so it stops smoking. We will be putting an O2 sensor on it.

The choke was an early problem so we disconnected it and took it out of play. We will turn our attention back to it when we have the rest of the carb working better.

It is full of antifreeze. I filled it with the front jacked and could hear it "glugging" as I filled it. When the thermostat opened the engine didn't really belch any air.

The balancer is new PowerBond part, the timing pointer and timing cover came off the stock block, and as we played with the timing it settled in happiest at 13.

I have some father's day obligations today, my dad is 95 and we are taking to my brother's place, but I'll check the water gauge as you suggested this morning.

We didn't change the cam on the accelerator pump, if I understand you it came with three secondary linkages and we put it on as it came. I'll confirm which one that is.

So when you say you took the choke out of play, did you loosen the thermostat and turn it to stay open all the time?

What I am trying to say about the black smoke is DO NOT try to "lean it out"  You have something else wrong, it is only belching during throttle movement, so we need to figure out why there is such a blast of fuel.  That will not be jet related, and more than likely it is a setup issue unless the power valve is blown

The O2 sensor is useless at this point, it's belching raw fuel, it's just going to peg.

[Yellow Truck]

Ross, we rotated the choke clockwise until it is always open, and took off the power lead. At this point there is no choke. I haven't done this before, so I'm careless with the terminology. I don't mean "lean it out" as in make it run lean, what I failed in trying to say is we need to stop dumping fuel into it. I also agree that the O2 sensor won't be useful until we have better control over the amount of fuel entering the engine. Once we have that, the O2 sensor will be useful.

I have a few things to do, then I need to find out why the temperature gauge is not responding, make some adjustments to the clutch linkage (it isn't pulling the fork back so the throwout bearing is riding on the diaphragm), and I'll try and sort out why the tach isn't working. Then we can address the fuel issue. I may also re-torque a few things including the headers.

I'm pretty confident the timing is right, but I don't understand why the vacuum is so low. When I discussed the cam with Barry (while we were working out what to put in it) he assured me this cam would make plenty of vacuum.

[FirstEliminator]

A few years ago I put together a 445 for a guy that had a similar build I actually took a video of it idling with a vacuum gauge installed. It looks like the vacuum was lingering around 10 inches at 750-800 rpm.

      I uploaded the video to youtube for you.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ToqqAs40UM


    Mark

[Yellow Truck]

Mark, thanks. 10 inches does sound a bit more reasonable. BTW, you are not a hoarder if you drive them, and you are not necessarily a hoarder if you don't. Nice little museum you have there.

[Yellow Truck]

I think I answered the first problem - no temperature gauge - I tested the wire and gauge as Ross suggested and it works. Being new to this I made a rookie mistake and bought a TS36 - which is for an idiot light (kind of fitting) instead of the TS24 which is for feeding a gauge. I found the one I took out and will re-use it.