Author Topic: Setting the fuel pressure...  (Read 19327 times)

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Posi67

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2016, 09:23:24 PM »
I gave ya 30 minutes, that is 60 bucks in our shop

Well I guess that pretty much covers....everything.
Where does he send the check?

I learned more from Joe in 2 minutes and it was for free. Apparently, talk isn't cheap but spending other people's money is certainly easy. At any rate, I'm still waiting for my escorted trip South with the US Marshalls. Could use a little spending money if someone paid off on the bet.

Yellow Truck

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2016, 10:23:00 PM »
Joe - it is a brand new QFT regulator. Howie - I assume everyone is taking Canadian dollars! BTW - who is Dale?
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Joe-JDC

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2016, 11:34:06 PM »
I agree that you should have the engine running to set the pressure, however it should hold even without the engine running.  My next suggestion would be to have a return fuel line to the tank to keep the fuel circulating and cooler.   What fuel pump do you have?  If you have an EFI pump instead of a carbureted electric pump, then the pressure will be much higher.  I am sure they should have sent the right one, but errors happen.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

ScotiaFE

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2016, 03:56:52 AM »
Joe - it is a brand new QFT regulator. Howie - I assume everyone is taking Canadian dollars! BTW - who is Dale?
When talking FE I always use Yankee dollars.
Dale is Posi67. It's an old bet from the 54 forum.
Dale won, I finished but was slower, and Tom never posted.

ScotiaFE

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2016, 06:39:10 AM »
To make sure we have the right size power valve we need to check the vacuum. All the instructions assume an automatic. I have a stick. First, does the vacuum increase or decrease when you put load on the engine, and what is the typical change?
Your carb most likely came with a 6 PV and you said you are at about 3500 feet so yo will be in the zone.

The most important thing is to keep the rpm up when you do fire it.
You will have lots of time to mess up the carb after you have a few 100 miles on it.
Me, I don't really mess around to much with the carb if it is working.
I only make it worse. And I'm at sea level so it's easy to make them work. ::)

Yellow Truck

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2016, 08:32:20 AM »
According to QFT it is a 6.5 PV. The fuel pump is a Holley Blue (12-802-1). It should put out a maximum of 14 PSI. I'll try to get it to run and hold pressure with the simple system. If I have to I'll run a return. I may thy to use the original fuel system as the return even though it is smaller than the delivery side, and I'f that won't hold I'll run a whole new system.

I did learn one handy trick doing the fuel line. I'd been told that cutting the braided steel lines was a big pain, and most people use an angle grinder. Barry R said a sharp chisel worked best, but I borrowed a cable cutter from a friend. It is basically a chisel held in a cylinder with a base and an exposed striking surface. Holds the hose in place while you give it a mighty whack. It made getting clean cuts pretty easy.

Having said that, the biggest problem in running a return line is I'm running a stock fuel tank and it was hard enough to get an extra pick-up into it, to replace the old pick-up with a wider tube would be a significant problem.

Howie, our little Canadian dollars don't go very far these days.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

HolmanMoodyStroppeGang

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Hig Altitude tune up
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2016, 08:41:20 AM »
One parting thought for you

FORD won more than anybody with the FE    F250 platform in the 70s.  Some key tricks were learned by spending a lot of FORD money and by race engineering to win, a lot. I would have been fired on the spot for sharing a few tricks below, but, 40-45 years later, I think we are safe   HAHAHAHAA    Besdes, we hired the Boss' son years back,,,so,,,we all love the old trucks and want to see everybody have fun. No sponsorships to lose here  HA HA

An race truck is a special deal.  And FE is perfectly suited to win off road, it is a torque monstor if done right, and with a tall gear, say racing the BAJA 1000, they were very hard to beat !!

Imagine a trick F250, with 3 shocls per wheel, and a fully triangulated race chassis, tall BF Goodrich or Firestone 15 by 10 desert race tires, full floating rear axles with knock offs on aluminum mags, and over 140 MPH down a sandy beach,,,floored for mile after mile   YEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

So

Your 3500 altitude tune up could be a tad lean at seas level. Let us know this, will the truck always run at 3500 ft?  Will it coome down to seas level too? Will it get some action at 4000,5000, 6000 feet to? Hey, we all gotta climb that mountain to say we did it, ya?

ha ha

Here is what we did racing up Pikes Peak, or over on the Barstow to Vegas races, or, the Mint 400 races.

For max power, floored, on a race ngine...and you have a nice motor there...the 2 general tuning rules can help you get in to a safe zone a bit easier.   Just info for you to use on the basic tune up

I would reduce the main jets, around 1 number, for every 2000 feet above sea level, if, and only if, you goal is max power while floored for top MPH and lowest ET

So for you, maybe is she likes, lets guess,   72s and 76s,,,primary and secondary jets

If we are hangin it out over half a mile in the sky,,,,3500 ft,,,your barometer, temp, density altitude, water grains will factor in heavily, if we tune off of a weather station, sure, but given STP,,,standard temperature, and pressure    (atmospheric)   Id start with 2 steps leaner

70s and 74's

You will not kill a pump gas FE being a little lean, and it will act crisper,,,and less boggish,,I HATE FAT FUEL CURVES if un necessary !!   LEAN IS MEAN

NEXT

At altitude, the base tune up usually wants a little more initial advance

I would curve your distributor by pulling away a little mechanical advance, and a bit of vacuum advance, Id raise the start stop points there, then add 1 to 2 more degrees static

So since you have fast burn BBM heads you say, do the R and D,,,,,and maybe, if we pick 34 degree total timing.... and your distrib has a curve set for 24 in the mechanical advance, so 10 is on the damper,,   10, plus 24, for 34 total, no vacuum...I would change my curve, to 22 and 12.  Do a base line before and after

You can acceleration test up there real easy too with a stop watch

Find a nice 1/4 mile out in the boon dock,,,,some safe place where you can mark off a nice flat 1320 feet...and be safe.....and make 10 runs and time them. Be consistent

Then use your hand tool,,,,,jets, timing light, vacuum gage, and plugs, and the spark plug reader....and so on

And see, by testing, what that cool F250 wants.   She will tell you, every run, if she is happy as you adjust her to a nice state of tune

Have fun

And of course,,,,if you come down the mountain, for a race at seas level,,,,,use your note book,,,,maybe add some jet size back,,,,say plus 2 plus 2     and then pull the leed    ie base timing,,,back 1 or 2 degrees,,,and re test her

And if you get a match race, decide to pull off the mufflers,,,lose the air cleaner, then add jet   and add some advance, and so on

Just basic tuning

We won Pikes Peak and set a record that stood for years with another little trick

a 13 to 1 race motor at seas level,,,,,,has much much less cylinder pressure at a mountain race.

If we need to haul arse from 5000 ft altitude, up to say 8000 -9000 feet,,,,,guess what? You can run  much much more compression, just to get the engine to squeaze the charge, like it does at sea level.    We ran, say, BOSS 429s,,,,and stroked 427 High Risers, a few SOHCs,,,,way way up to 14-1    15-1

Here is a general knowledge missive for you and maybe it can help

The Holley suggestion of decreasing jet size by one number per 2000' elevation is a good starting point. You might want to experiment with power valves too. To check and verify your experiments, find a long section of relatively straight highway, drive at your normal cruise speed for a few miles then put it in neutral coasting to a safe place to park off the highway. Pull all of the spark plugs and read them. Use a lighted magnifying plug reader to verify that there are no aluminum dingle berries hiding down deep in the plug at the base of the insulator. Best plug condition will be a consistent light tan color on the insulator.
You probably already know this, but you will also want to advance your timing by a few degrees up on the mountain.

So using 2 or 3 sets of plugs can help you tune it. Allow some time to let the plugs color, or get enough deposits to see well   dont read them when still white,,,let them color all the way down.  Watch the color of each thread cloely,,,thread one tells a story, then thread 2,3,4.  You will see the temperature, change the color of the sharp edge of the spark plugs thread,,,,this color is also, like a little temperature gage, or evidence...but the color, is first and best.

And be aware of how even all 8 plugs compare....you can sometimes bandaid a tune up depending on the intake and cam.  Many FEs have won races stagger jetted.  Not sure if we are racing though

But a perfect tune, on many intakes that are not optimized as to equal length runners, and equal intake port, tract, dynamics, do sometimes like a funny set of jets to get bitchin pyrometer readings on the dyno

Some of our winning race truck engines, for FORD, for class 1   and 2,,,real fast FE trucks,,,,did get stagger jetted a bit            If you race, let me know.   Our race trucks did some times have best power, with main jets out back, not the same size

Now here is a huge trick we also won with

a fast truck,usually sees a nice power gain, with a nice 2 inch, or 3 inch tall, carb spacer.

We used the 4 hole offenhouser spacer most.   The good 4 hole spacers, reduce carb temps, thus add fuel density and cooling, plus, they mimic a larger plenum, and allow more jet.

Many FE intakes dyno better with a nice carb spacer,,,,but you cant fit them under many door car hoods.  You can do a bubble hood, but on a F250, we also ran a 4 inch spacer, and a double stacked air cleaner,,,,,a 14 by 3, on top of a 14 by 3 air cleaner, and then a K and N oil foam pre filter around the air filters

Have fun

If you add some  old FORD race Truck tricks to her, it would make a lot of old FORD racers smile

« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 09:39:30 AM by HolmanMoodyStroppeGang »

Yellow Truck

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2016, 10:55:10 AM »
HolmanMoodyStroppeGang - let me start by asking if you have a shorter name?

Thanks for an excellent lesson. Learned more from your posts than I have from the books I've read. The truck is an F100, not an F250 - that is one of the things that makes it rare. There were 465 Flareside 4x4 F100's made out of a total of 8,571 F100 4x4s made in total.

I did pull the jets back - it came with 78s in the front and 86s in the rear and we went to 76/84s to start. I had the distributor re-curved with 11 degrees mechanical advance, all in by 2,950 rpm. Also had the vacuum advance limited to 10-12 degrees. I wrote to BBM and they suggested total advance of 32 degrees.

I did put a 1 inch plastic spacer under the carb, and I did some port matching on the Street Dominator intake, plus opened up the plenum.

I don't plan on taking it down to sea level, but I may one day. If so, I'll have to lay in a supply of jets.

First thing is to get it fired and check to make sure we don't have any real issues, check the O2 to get it reasonable, then go break in the engine and clutch. Sadly, to break in the engine I want to do a bunch of runs at WOT for about half an hour to seat the rings, but the McLeod clutch came with instructions to avoid WOT and absolutely not put it on a wheel dyno until the clutch has about 1,200 engagements. I think I'll take it out to a highway near me and run it hard up and down the gears in 3rd and 4th (second on the old NP 435 is basically first and it would probably slip the clutch too much).

I don't plan on racing the truck, but you never know. Once this project is in the bag, may start looking at the tranny - I'd like to replace the NP 435 and Dana 21 with a Borg Warner T-19 and a Dana 20 to get 4 useful gears.

BTW there were only 14,143 F250 4x4s made in '69. They are not exactly common either.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 11:39:34 AM by Yellow Truck »
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

ScotiaFE

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2016, 12:16:20 PM »
HolmanMoodyStroppeGang - let me start by asking if you have a shorter name?

This is Tom. Yes that Tom. ;)

cammerfe

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2016, 01:31:29 PM »
If you're limiting to 32 degrees total I believe you're leaving something on the table. Performance FEs with mostly factory parts like 10 (20) in the diz and close to 18 initial for a total of 38.

KS

Yellow Truck

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2016, 01:56:39 PM »
Tom (aka HollmanMoodyStroppeGang) do you have any pictures of those old trucks and engines?
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Posi67

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2016, 05:03:38 PM »
Tom (aka HollmanMoodyStroppeGang) do you have any pictures of those old trucks and engines?

And that's when the trouble started.... LOL.   Sorry, but it's a bit of an inside joke that has nothing to do with your post and this Forum. Tom was a bit camera shy back in the 60's and 70's possibly due to his age however he does provide some good info once you filter out the unapplicable parts.

As for timing, I'd start with the BBM recommendation of 32 deg. The newer style chambers don't need or want 38 like the old days. No idea what rings you used but they will generally seat almost immediately. There again, not like the parts of old. Won't hurt to run it up and down a few times under a load but I wouldn't worry about the 1/2 hour ritual.   

HolmanMoodyStroppeGang

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2016, 05:50:20 PM »


Have fun dialing her in and nice work. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 06:08:09 PM by HolmanMoodyStroppeGang »

Yellow Truck

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2016, 05:57:53 PM »
Dale,

Thanks for the input. I was going to start at the recommended timing and explore gently from there. Don't spoil my fun breaking it in - half an hour of booting it outside of town and burning gas!
https://www.google.ca/maps/@50.8922519,-114.304462,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sCMXGt-y1TSW7UnZDfOTT2w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DCMXGt-y1TSW7UnZDfOTT2w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D392%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D81.669228%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

That is the highway I plan to use, and just at the horizon you can see the Rockies. They are much more impressive in person.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

ScotiaFE

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Re: Setting the fuel pressure...
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2016, 06:29:58 PM »
That is the highway I plan to use, and just at the horizon you can see the Rockies. They are much more impressive in person.
I have a very young grandson who lives near that highway.
Last time I was on it I was driving a Kia. YA. ::)