Author Topic: KB 150 step dish question  (Read 4061 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

63.5xl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
KB 150 step dish question
« on: April 02, 2016, 08:56:20 AM »
Would a step dish piston such as the KB 150 be more efficient in burning the fuel and therefore make as much power at a lower compression as a circular dish at a higher compression?  Would the gas mileage be better with the step dish or maybe run 87 octane instead of 91 octane with the same seat of the pants thrill?  Why does KB site say there is no quench on a circular dish piston?
For instance, same cam, head, but different head gaskets as H304p has a compression height of 1.759 and the KB150 is 1.780.
H304p circular dish with 12cc and .027 gasket with 4.250 bore and .021 deck clearance gives SCR of 9.94 and DCR 8.03.
KB150 with 20cc and .041 gasket with 4.4 bore and 0 deck clearance gives SCR of 9.28 and DCR 7.50.

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4227
    • View Profile
Re: KB 150 step dish question
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2016, 09:17:29 AM »
If you look at the quench pad on the head, the ideal piston for quench matches the shape of the chamber.  A true dish piston uses very little of that surface.  In some engines, it doesn't matter because the head doesn't have a quench pad, so no matter what the shape is, it is the same, but in our FE a d-cup piston is generally better for the street.

Have you by chance contacted Brent Lykins?  I wonder how far off the price is for a Racetech piston that gives you exactly what you want.  No pistons are cheap anymore, and if you want to optimize quench and compression to your small chambered heads, it may be the best value, if not the cheapest

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7586
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: KB 150 step dish question
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2016, 09:42:35 AM »
+1 on what Ross said, Carl.  A dish that matches the shape of the chamber is going to be best - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

63.5xl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: KB 150 step dish question
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2016, 10:41:13 AM »
Ross and Jay, what do you think about the scr and scr #'s of using the d cup with those #'s. My deck height is 10.158, so it should come out zero.
10.158 - 1.89 - 6.488 - 1.780 = 0. Would that be good or would a guy want to shave the top of the piston at all?
By the way Rebco Machine in Wichita KS does pistons and Pistons only. From shaving a top to building a piston out of a chunk of metal.

http://rebco-machine.com

FirstEliminator

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 457
    • View Profile
Re: KB 150 step dish question
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2016, 10:53:32 AM »
 For years, I've liked the design of the KB pistons that would maximize the quench area. However, I've heard more than one person say that the KB pistons aren't very strong. Prone to cracking with the slightest hint of detonation. That I ought to just go with a forged. Any thoughts on the comfort level of a KB before it would make sense to switch to a forged?
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts

70 Cougar XR-7 460 C-6
70 Cougar XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Cougar SS 351w AOD
69 Cougar Sunroof Eliminator 351w FMX
69 Cougar XR-7 390 C-6
68 Monterey 390 C-6
68 Monterey conv 390 C-6
64 Montclair Marauder 390 Merc-O
58 Monterey 383 Merc-O
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
68 Colony Park 428 C-6
68 Colony Park 390 C-6
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
70 Cougar Eliminator 351c 4 speed
I don't feel like a hoarder.

cammerfe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1676
    • View Profile
Re: KB 150 step dish question
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2016, 11:22:34 AM »
Since I can't quite justify thinking of myself as the sharpest knife in the drawer, I have to admit to occasionally doing something that has me saying, "Boy, was that dumb."

I, therefore, like to give myself a little elbow room---including engine components that can absorb some abuse. Premium pistons are one of the areas I look to to give me elbow room.

KS

FirstEliminator

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 457
    • View Profile
Re: KB 150 step dish question
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2016, 11:38:25 AM »
As a butter knife in the engine world, I am right there with ya which is why I went with Diamond forged for a mild 460 to 545 build. Mild, as it probably won't see the other side of 5000 rpms. With the amount of project time I have available in the remainder of my lifetime, there is only time to do this once. Going with forged helps to minimize repeat work.   
     This kinda answers my above question. But, I still like the KB design for quench. Maybe use them in a stock engine in the future.
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts

70 Cougar XR-7 460 C-6
70 Cougar XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Cougar SS 351w AOD
69 Cougar Sunroof Eliminator 351w FMX
69 Cougar XR-7 390 C-6
68 Monterey 390 C-6
68 Monterey conv 390 C-6
64 Montclair Marauder 390 Merc-O
58 Monterey 383 Merc-O
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
68 Colony Park 428 C-6
68 Colony Park 390 C-6
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
70 Cougar Eliminator 351c 4 speed
I don't feel like a hoarder.

CaptCobrajet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
    • View Profile
Re: KB 150 step dish question
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2016, 12:09:44 PM »
I agree 100% with Ross and Jay that a chamber shaped dish is more efficient.  I also think that for what you describe, I would still use the Sealed Power piston.  That is a lot of difference in C/R, and on the street, you might find yourself running one to two more degrees of timing to light the mix under the quench side.  A four valve relief piston is actually better off to have the round dish intersect the quench-side valve reliefs......otherwise you have a couple of valve notches trapped under the quench side with unburned fuel there.  Rebco is a very capable outfit, but if you are talking about $179 Hypers versus custom stuff from Rebco, it is a whole different world.  I have had stuff done by them that ended up north of $2K for eight pistons.  I have CP custom make my stuff, and if I do five sets at a time, it can get reasonable for budget builds, but still not as cheap as shelf Sealed Power stuff.  The advantage of modern ring selection, to me, is worth more than the cost difference.  The KB and the Sealed Power use antique rings with high tension and huge radial thickness.  Depending on what you are doing.....there are advantages to the high silicone hypers in certain situations, like a daily driver, or a mild performance street deal.  I would suggest investing in a creative ring package even for the lower cost pistons, with a steel top, cutback Napier 2nd ring, and a gold Hastings oil ring package.  We have done several engines with those H304P pistons, with custom rings, and they really do a jam-up job.  Just running those numbers, you must have a 68 cc head?  None of the factory iron is that small unless you mill them a fair amount, unless you have early heart-shaped 352/390 heads.  Point being, a flat top, with two reliefs comes out pretty nice if you dont have chambers that small.  I'm sure you have checked them, but most of the heads will be mid-70's or more without an effort to make them smaller.
Blair Patrick

63.5xl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: KB 150 step dish question
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2016, 09:10:37 PM »
They are c3ae 390 heads they measured at 69 cc. I was just talking with Eric at Rebco about cost of cutting some off the top of cast Pistons which he was very reasonable on that. This is a low budget weekend driver.

63.5xl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: KB 150 step dish question
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2016, 09:31:59 PM »
When I had talked to Eric at Rebco, it was when I was thinking about using a 428 crank I have and he gave me a very low price to take an additional 6 1/2 cc out of some 381np Pistons giving me a little over 18 cc dish. But then the high dollar manual flywheel although I run across one older machine shop and he could measure the weight on the 42& flex plate I have and put a weight on my 390 flywheel for $80. No guarantee but he has done a lot of them over the years and no complaints he said.