Author Topic: CHI Products/quality control?  (Read 21471 times)

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NIsaacs

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CHI Products/quality control?
« on: March 05, 2016, 09:59:00 AM »
I know there are some engine builders on here besides just FE. My brother is in the process of updating his 434 Clevor with a set of CHI 3V 225cc heads and matching intake, 4150 style. The intake has a bad deformity on the plenum side of #2 runner, about an inch down. The air bubble/dimple is on the outside, deep enough that the inner material is almost paper thin, WD40 sprayed in the depression just runs right through. Also in the plenum are numerous chisel marks. On both heads, he pulled out 3 pieces of bailing wire from the water jackets, with a total length of 17". I asked him to send me some pictures. What's up with this?

Nick
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blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2016, 10:02:46 AM »
Did he contact them about it?  New or used pieces?

I use a lot of CHI products and have never had an issue with heads or intakes either one.
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2016, 10:32:26 AM »
Thanks Brent,

The parts are new, he is sending the intake back to the builder/distributor that he ordered them from. The builder, built the heads from bare castings so he had lots of time to inspect them. He even made excuses for CHI saying the wire really would not hurt anything. Huh?? He is kind of disappointed it the whole experience.

Nick
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blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2016, 10:39:42 AM »
I can't see how the wire would hurt anything either.   I see wire from time to time in different heads....AFR, TFS, etc., although I've never seen 17" of it, usually an inch or so. 

Casting flaws are a different story.
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2016, 11:31:31 AM »
The wire my not hurt anything but it sure don't belong left there, (quality control). Thermostat or electric water pump malfunction come to mind.

Nick
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blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2016, 11:42:56 AM »
Hope he gets it resolved to his liking.   CHI is the best Cleveland head out there though, IMO......so when he gets it straightened out, he will have some horsepower. 



That little 434 made 777 hp with a set of ported CHI heads....

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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2016, 12:03:22 PM »
777 hp? Don't tell my brother that, he thinks my FE is stone age and I say his 400m is boat anchor iron, lol He is hoping for 650/700 going from his small Trick Flo heads and Holly street dominator intake, we think it was around 500/550. His pro stock class is becoming a horse power war so even at 700hp he will still be behind....

Bullet solid roller cam, 255/263 @ .050, 744 valve lift on 108/112....comments?

Nick
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blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2016, 12:06:32 PM »
What size motor and what compression?
Brent Lykins
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2016, 12:12:44 PM »
It's a 434 with about 12:1, not sure exactly, intake valves are 2.19, exhaust are 1.60, the builder is closed mouthed about it. You would think he would want his customer to know everything, but...

Did you build the engine in the picture? That's awesome, I notice what I think is a vacuum pump, does that make more power than it robs?

Nick
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blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2016, 12:24:58 PM »
Yes, I built that engine.  Owner is in Wichita, KS, with a '69 Mustang.   With the right ring pack, a vac pump will add a whole lot of horsepower....definitely worthwhile with the correct bottom end parts.   This engine used ultra low tension rings and the pump pulled about 10 inches of vacuum.   My educated guess is that it added about 30-35 hp.

If your bro's heads haven't been ported, I would expect about 625 hp.  He doesn't have enough camshaft....needs about 10 degrees more duration. 

The engine above was 13.5:1, with a 263/275 @ .050" stick, .850" lift on both sides, with a T&D 1.8:1 race rocker setup.  It peaked at 7000 rpm.  Heads flowed 380 cfm with a 2.250/1.65 valve setup.  4.155" bore size with a 4" Callies crankshaft.   Quick Fuel 1000 cfm Dominator, with a 4150 CHI intake, port matched to a Super Sucker 2" adapter spacer. 
Brent Lykins
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jayb

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2016, 01:08:09 PM »
I've pulled those core wires out of factory Ford SOHC heads before.  They are not a concern, IMO.  The thin casting is, however...
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2016, 01:25:53 PM »
Now if I can remember how to do this.....

[imghttp://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah211/NIsaacs1/IMG_1227_zpsmsppmemz.jpg]http://[/img]

[imghttp://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah211/NIsaacs1/IMG_1231_zpsu1ldwedd.jpg][/img]

[imghttp://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah211/NIsaacs1/IMG_1228_zpsv9reufuz.jpg]http://[/img]



Nick
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2016, 01:28:00 PM »
Humm, only one posted, try again....

Nick
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2016, 01:29:04 PM »
and again....



Nick
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 01:30:46 PM by NIsaacs »
2021 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins of course!
2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
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1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2016, 01:32:31 PM »
One more....



Nick
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1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2016, 01:46:05 PM »
I've pulled those core wires out of factory Ford SOHC heads before.  They are not a concern, IMO.  The thin casting is, however...


I guess we figured for the money, the parts would bolt on the block by themselves, lol... Just seemed like a lot of wire......

Nick
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1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

ToddK

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2016, 05:45:48 PM »
CHI are based here in Australia, though not sure where their parts are cast. Like Brent said, they have a great reputation here for making the best Cleveland heads and intakes. Definitely not in the same league as Procomp junk.

I'd be sending that intake back to the distributor. I know how much of a pain that will be, and may cost you a bit on shipping. I have to do that from time to time with parts I buy from the US.

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2016, 08:43:14 PM »
I would just fix the intake. That void is pretty small and would be an easy fix with epoxy. Same with the "hack" marks, just a tootsie roll sander or a little die grinder work and all will be well. I would normally be rubbing on the intake a fair amount anyway, versus bolting it on as cast. A little work here and there will help for sure, my guess is the heads ports are larger anyway. Kind of surprised there doesn't appear to be much effort on the inside of the intake manifold, seeing how the heads are "top secret".
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blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2016, 06:25:35 AM »
If it's a 225 sized intake, it should match the 225cc heads pretty close on the port dimensions.  Should almost be dead-on.

However, it will need some rubbing to make big horsepower.....and I agree with Thor, I've seen those marks on other intakes as well (other brands) and it wouldn't take 30 seconds to make them go away. 
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2016, 06:42:02 AM »
We are not sure about port match yet, the adaptors are not here yet. Any idea what the intake CFM flow of the 225 heads is? We assumed they would make big power stock, ya know...CHI and stuff lol

Nick
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blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2016, 07:00:48 AM »
They will certainly cover the stock flow of a 225cc head.  However, when you start wanting big horsepower numbers, they need some plenum work.  Keep in mind that out of the box, the CHI stuff will trump any of the other aftermarket Cleveland parts out there. 

FWIW, the cylinder heads and intake in the 434 I built on the previous page, all kept the stock CHI port dimensions.  However, lots of internal work was done.  The heads ended up being 260 cc. 
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2016, 07:21:47 AM »
We are both excellent mechanics, however, we are not hotrod mechanics, that's why I am here!

I was always under the impression that an over square engine will make more power than an under square engine of the same cubic inch. His engine is 4.020 bore with a 4.250 stroke, so will it automatically have less power than your build, if everything was the same? If all he is going to get is about 625hp that's not going to work. The Pro Stock class also needs an engine in the 8k rpm range, his old one hit a brick wall at 6800. Different cam, cam timing, carb, ignition timing, final drive gear ratios, nothing helped.

Nick
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1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2016, 07:32:18 AM »
I personally don't see it going over that number.  He needs a lot more camshaft and the heads/intake will need port work.  FWIW, I did a 408 Cleveland based on those heads and intake, with 10.5:1 compression, and a 248/254 @ .050" cam, .670-.680 lift and it made 575 hp at 7000 rpm here.  He would have to pick up 50 hp over that and the compression difference would make it for a lot of it, but the cam isn't nearly big enough for 30 more cubic inches.  My guess is that his engine would peter out at around 6400-6500 with the camshaft he has. 

However, remember, that you can make anything work.  I like the over-square engines for race motors, not because an under-square motor won't rev, or won't make power, but it's often easier to make horsepower with a larger bore because you can fit bigger valves into the heads.  Also, a short stroke engine is easier on the rings and bearings because of piston speed and the size of the crank that you're trying to spin at high rpms. 

Will an under-square long stroke engine make horsepower and rev?  Yep.   It just takes a little more work and planning to make it do so.

I think in the overall scheme of things,  to hit the numbers and rpms he's wanting to hit, he's probably better off with another combo, especially if it's a factory block.   I would do an aftermarket block, 4.155" bore or larger, and a pretty short stroke....3" or 3.250".  Turn it to the moon and add a ton of head/intake/cam/compression.

I build as many small blocks as I do FE's, so if he has a question or is stumped on something, feel free to give me a call. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 07:35:28 AM by blykins »
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Barry_R

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2016, 07:39:31 AM »
Keep in mind that out of the box, the CHI stuff will trump any of the other aftermarket Cleveland parts out there. 


Depends on the box.  The 412 inch Pantera engine we did here has a pair of Scott Cook's heads on it.  That one is pretty close to 600HP at pump gas compression with a 236ish hydraulic roller "RV cam".  Of course those come CNC'd so the comparison is not really 1 to 1.

That intake is kinda rough.  Looks like the foundry guy had a hard time getting the core out of the plenum, hence the chisel marks.  The void should have been welded up and detailed before shipping.  All pretty normal stuff that usually gets handled before we ever see the parts.

blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2016, 07:48:12 AM »
I haven't tried Scott's heads.  I don't hear much about them on my Cleveland forum or some of the others, but obviously they work fairly well. 
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2016, 08:17:48 AM »
My brother is not a computer person at all so I am his research/advisor, I feel bad because years ago before I landed here I recommended his builder. In all fairness he has 3 seasons on his custom built short block that he is going to reuse. However, we were pretty plain about needing way more power, that's why the CHI stuff, porting the heads or intake was never mentioned as being needed. Most of his competition run big block Chevys and 385 series Fords, he is stubborn about his 400m and wants to keep that size. FWI, this is in a sled puller so I think we need to keep the long stroke? The class was 500 cid limit but has moved to 550 so he has a lot to overcome. He has always been very competitive until last year, then the larger cubes passed him up.

Again, I want to thank you guys for the info/feed back. It is too late in the season to change direction now but the future (next winter shut down) is only about 8 months away. His truck performs really well chassis wise and can overcome some deficiency in a smaller motor, but 700 hp and 7500 rpm is a must and more is better.

When the season starts I will keep you guys informed on how it does. In the mean time keep the advise coming!

Nick
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2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
2001 Ram 2500 4x4 QC short bed, Cummins, 6spd, some mods
1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2016, 08:23:51 AM »
Yeah, that's not a 700 hp or 7500 rpm combo.
Brent Lykins
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2016, 08:36:48 AM »
Yeah, that's not a 700 hp or 7500 rpm combo.

Thank you. Don't get me wrong the builder is good, I don't want to keep sounding negative but just not great in my opinion, mostly because his communications skills are lacking, you have all encountered what I mean...you can tell when info is like pulling teeth and you get the feeling of hurry up I want to get off the phone. We are both humble with good manners so rather than have phone rage ;D we just go somewhere else.

Nick
2021 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins of course!
2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
2001 Ram 2500 4x4 QC short bed, Cummins, 6spd, some mods
1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2016, 01:52:47 PM »
Well, here's my thinking, but listen with a grain of salt because I don't specialize in pulling truck engines....

I'd rather have a much shorter stroke as a pulling engine stays at basically WOT and high rpms for a much longer period of time than your drag race motor, street engine, etc.  A 4.250" stroke crank in a SBF (albeit a 400 block) is a big arm and is a lot of weight to be slinging around. 

Most of the pulling truck engines around here are also BBC and BBF with the 470 inch BBF's making over 1000 hp with Trick Flow A460 heads, peaking at 7500-8000.   The Fords use Eliminator blocks, with a 4.500" bore size I think.  That would make the stroke mighty short....

It would be difficult to make that bore/stroke combination pull rpms efficiently and safely. 

Is there another class he can run in?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 03:11:38 PM by blykins »
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2016, 03:11:03 PM »
He can't go down to Super Stock because he has a Reverser and ProFab t-case, it sucks when you build for a class and the rules change. The rules also changed to pulling tires because the big power guys could not get the power to the ground. So now with pulling tires he really needs more power. Then some places they don't follow the rules....

We have often wondered about the stroker kit in his engine. He first built it as .060 over 400 with the trickflow heads, Holly intake and Cam Research solid roller cam. It had awesome RPM. He started with a 6800 rpm pill then kept going up as the season went. The last pull of the season he put in a 7600 rpm chip and blew it up. His reasoning was that was the year he graduated, 1976 lol  We think the main reason was he did not modify the oil system, that's what we learned after the fact.

That's when he had the custom engine built, but like I have said, it hits a brick wall at 6800-7000 no matter what. That's the reason for the CHI stuff, he hopes to get the power and rpm up. The builder says the short block is up for it. It has 3 seasons on it but only 21 hrs so it should still be stout.

Nick
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2016, 03:16:56 PM »
If he's bound to give it a try, I'd port the heads (they are about 320 cfm out of the box) and add a lot more camshaft than what he has.  It doesn't have enough camshaft to pull as high as he wants, even with the better head.  It may pull that high, but it won't make hp that high.

Maybe cut the counterweights down on the crank to try and try to lighten it. 

If he's got the budget, the heads can flow around 380-400 cfm with work.
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2016, 03:44:40 PM »
I don't know if this applies but his crank is zero balanced? Does that mean some counter weights were cut down?

He is also having Ram build him a custom flywheel and twin disk clutch, that will be heavy....

We wondered about the cam, when you add the lash .020 intake and .024 exhaust, seems like a lot, it (cam) gets small....we expected a bigger cam, it is not much bigger than the old one, duration wise, it does have a lot more lift. We assumed it was because the heads were so much better, that they were making up the difference in efficiency?

Nick
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2016, 03:52:04 PM »
No, it just means that the crankshaft was internally balanced, so it doesn't need a weighted balancer or flywheel to balance it.  I mentioned cutting the counterweights down and making the crankshaft lighter just to aid in how much weight is being thrown around at high rpm.   

Generally, twin disc clutches are smaller diameter.  Most of the McLeod pieces I deal with are under 10" disc and pressure plate diameter.   They may add a little weight, but it keeps it closer to the centerline of the crankshaft.

As for the cam, did your brother tell the builder  that he was aiming for 700 hp and to put the peak hp up higher?

The 434 that I pictured peaked right at 7000 with 261/273 @ .050", but we ran a .904" lifter with a larger wheel diameter, which adds a couple degrees of duration.   These heads flowed 380 on the intake side at .800".   Generally speaking, the better the head flows, the less the duration needs to increase, as the head is more efficient.   I had bought another camshaft to try on the dyno, 270/280 @ .050", but the engine made enough horsepower that we didn't try it.  I have it on the shelf for when the engine comes back for a freshen-up.  I expect that we would push over the 800 hp mark with it.

The out-of-the-box CHI 225cc head is probably 60 cfm lower than that from what I've seen on the flow bench.   He would need a lot more camshaft than what I used to make up for the difference. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 03:54:06 PM by blykins »
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2016, 04:13:31 PM »
I don't think an HP figure was really discussed, just that he wanted all he could get, I don't think porting was discussed either so maybe we didn't get specific enough, remember communication or lack of....

The heck of it is, without being experienced engine builders, we don't know if we dare change cams without knowing more about how the heads are set up. Will a bigger cam hit the pistons for example? That was a concern the builder built for and had my bro measure for him. I think time and money wise this season is done, we have to use what we got. If the power is down and it sure sound like it will be, then cam and porting will be next if the short block is still up to it.

Here is a an average video of his truck, note the bog at the end. We call it good traction, not low power, lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSqPRN7akng 

Nick
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2016, 04:18:42 PM »
Well, exhaust valve clearance is usually not an issue with the Cleveland stuff.    Most C pistons don't even have exhaust valve reliefs.....

The Diamond pistons I used in the build above handled .850" lift with over .100" of clearance on the intake side. 

It just depends on which pistons were used, but you are correct in that a larger duration cam (doesn't necessarily have to have more lift) could make it harder on P/V clearance.

I would expect that your brother's engine will be around the 625-635 hp mark. 

How much carb does he have?
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2016, 04:28:15 PM »
What rods are your brother using in the M400



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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2016, 04:32:49 PM »
I will have him take a picture of the pistons, I think they have one valve relief, I don't know the brand. He has an 800 Edelbrock and a 950 Holley, the engine now seems to like the 800.

I will get the head gasket specs too. I will also ask him what the valve train specs/brand is, I think he told me he would need different length pushrods this build, I will try and confirm that. I don't think he knows what the rods are or even the crank but I will ask.

Nick
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2016, 05:25:43 PM »
Here is a Jon Kaase built 530 cid, note the chassis behavior and the breakage at the end, rear axle I think. He is a good puller in my bro's class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYsc9b0WhyE

Nick
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 05:31:42 PM by NIsaacs »
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1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2016, 06:41:54 PM »
I bet the crankshaft wasn't having a good time on that one.....did you hear it getting/losing traction repeatedly?
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2016, 10:03:54 AM »
I was mistaken on the compression, the 12 was for the old engine. This one is around 13.5 so that will help! Stock head gasket .039-.041 crushed, piston at top is flush with one intake relief, no clue on cc's, 60 cc heads, New estimate of power and CR ratio? :D

The roller rockers are Trick Flo, stock ratio 1.73, I forgot to ask about the roller lifters.

Nick
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2016, 10:58:41 AM »
I'd say your compression ratio estimate is pretty close.  I did a rough calculation with a 3.5 cc flat top and came up with 13.5. 

Horsepower will increase a little with another 1.5 points of compression, but I still don't see you going over 650 hp with unported heads/intake. 

Still need a lot more camshaft.  :)
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Joe-JDC

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2016, 12:37:09 PM »
First of all, I don't think the 400 cleveland block will live with 700 hp in a puller truck.  Do you have an aftermarket block?  Second, I disagree on short stroke for pulling.  A sled puller should have as much torque as possible to get wheel speed up and keep it up, so I think stroke is a big help in being competitive.   I have helped with heads and intakes for pulling vehicles in the past, and torque/velocity are primary needs unless you are using n20.  I agree on neutral balancing everything with a bit of overbalance at the desired rpm for continued pulling range.  Joe-JDC
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2016, 12:58:26 PM »
Just from what I've seen around here, all the competitive guys are running big bores and short strokes.  These are BBF's and BBC's though, 900-1000 hp and probably 600-650 lb-ft of torque.....4.500" bore, 3.6-ish stroke.  I think there's a 470-477 inch rule.

IMO, a long stroke doesn't always guarantee torque....displacement plays the role there and it's easier to make horsepower with a big valved head if you have a big bore. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 01:03:20 PM by blykins »
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2016, 04:45:24 PM »
Yes, but a BBF A-460 at 600 CI will have over 800 lbft torque and 1200 hp if it is built right.  I will take torque for pulling a load any day when it comes to pulling down at the big end.  A short stroke will quit or bog a lot quicker than a long stroke in same engine.  Pulling is all about getting wheel speed up and keeping it up and torque will help keep it up as the load increases.  I guess it all comes down to class rules, but in unlimited class, bigger is always better.   Joe-JDC
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2016, 05:00:28 PM »
I guess what I was trying to get across is that just because it has a long stroke doesn't mean that it will make more torque.

There are certain wives tales regarding long strokes that are just not true… Long stroke cranks can't rev, long stroke cranks make more torque, etc....

In a displacement restricted class, I would rather have a larger bore than stroke, and as you say, even the big inch motors,  500 and 600 ci, make a ton of torque but have much larger bores.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 05:02:45 PM by blykins »
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2016, 07:26:04 AM »
I know this is debatable, but in my opinion an auto equipped truck is more forgiving with less power. With a good converter to match the engine power, they seem to level out a not perfect gear, multiple tracks and different sleds.

With a standard transmission, it is hard to get the right gear ratio. Even with a slipper clutch to assist in the launch, it can become gear/rpm bound at half track or if half track is perfect now the gear will suffer at the end and fall on it's face. It just seems like everything has to all fit and match the drivers skill level/style. A bad driver can mess up a perfect pulling truck ;D

I like my automatic, it is rare for it to embarrass me, lol

Nick   
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bluef100fe

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2016, 09:42:42 AM »
My 2 cents worth... Truck pulling isn't all that different than drag racing... You have to get the right combo in the engine and the truck or car. Your brother is bringing a knife or stick to a gun fight if the his class allow 530-550 inch engines with aftermarket heads to run against him. I wouldn't sink anymore money in the 400M. Unless there is more rules that you aren't making us aware of? All the small block and medium block combos that used to run around here have been retired or upgraded to big blocks in our upper classes. The displacement disadvantage is just too hard to over come when there is also much aftermarket support these days and guys with deep pockets that just want to win no matter what it costs them. Anyway, If i was your brother, I'd start researching big block combos.. My belief is its just easier to have a winning combo when your displacement Is at the limit in a displacement limited class. 

You can make enough power with the combo you got to get th mid track speed needed if everything is built correctly but I'm guessing it won't have enough torque at end when the sled drops the last stage and pulls the engine down to its knees or right on its face like the video you showed of your brothers hook. From the sound of the video the truck never got to max speed/rpm... It was laboring even at mid track where it should have been at full song with the least amount of labor on it. It's apparent from that video he needs more gear or more hp and torque. Good luck guys...


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Cody Ladowski
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7.38 @ 91.5
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2016, 10:24:54 AM »
Blue, thanks for the feed back and excellent observation/advise. We agree. Building hp is such a slippery slope. The investment in the 400 short block is significant, when you add all the supporting attachments that only fit that block, so with a relatively small expense we concluded the CHI stuff might work. Starting all over with a big block is huge and will someday need to happen, just can't do it yet.

The big guys control the rules. When the CI limit was 500 he was very competitive, then last year the rules changed to 550. The trucks found out that they couldn't get that much power to the ground, so now the rules changed again to allow pulling tires. Now the class is almost out of reach for us and we can't back up, because the next class down, the rules don't allow reversers or drop boxes, which we have in the truck. When the truck was built it was allowed but when the rules changed to 550 for Pro Stock, the Super Stock down graded and not they are not allowed. So I guess we are between both classes now....

Nick
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machoneman

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2016, 10:55:29 AM »
The rules situation you've run into sounds just like the games NHRA used to pull for decades (and still does) to favor Chevy entrants. Bill Dismuke actually said this after he retired as the chief starter at most national events. Doing so filled the stands as class after class in Stock and Super Stock were consistently won by Chevys year after year. Oh, and if they didn't win, the factored weight breaks, hp ratings or both were juggled to favor....guess which brand? 

Hard to beat City Hall when they change the rules arbitrarily w/o racer input.
Bob Maag

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2016, 11:56:59 AM »
Exactly, and the tire rule for 2016 came out in February and the CHI parts were ordered in October, so now what do you do....the only thing we can do, tires and wheels are on order....and now even more power is needed...

We also pull with 4 different organizations and every one is different....but it is still fun!

Nick
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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2016, 12:33:11 PM »
Do you have budget/time/willingness to swap cams?
Brent Lykins
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bluef100fe

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2016, 02:11:44 PM »
The rules seem to be favoring the big budget guys like normal lol...  What are all the engine rules? Oem arcitecture or is anything aluminum allowed ? I'm sure you can get a bunch more out of the combo with the suggestions the guys have made, but I doubt it will be "enough" to play with the big boys. Your just asking for more than a 400m short block can deliver reliably... Again IMO.  I did a 530 SCJ headed pulling deal for a guy here that made 840 hp with the wrong cam... Cast intake, one 1250, 2-1/4 X 4 headers, 13.5:1, roller cam, a C6, pro fab transfer case, etc.... That was my first crack at it... I'm a FE guy lol... A cam change made it better on the track but we never redynoed it to verify what it gained where... Gave the Chevy guys fits around here for a few years until the rules changed lol. Best of luck.


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Cody Ladowski
1976 F-100 stepside
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1.56 sixty ft.
7.38 @ 91.5
11.79 @ 111.5

NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2016, 05:40:43 PM »
First of all, I don't think the 400 cleveland block will live with 700 hp in a puller truck.  Do you have an aftermarket block?  Second, I disagree on short stroke for pulling.  A sled puller should have as much torque as possible to get wheel speed up and keep it up, so I think stroke is a big help in being competitive.   I have helped with heads and intakes for pulling vehicles in the past, and torque/velocity are primary needs unless you are using n20.  I agree on neutral balancing everything with a bit of overbalance at the desired rpm for continued pulling range.  Joe-JDC

The block is factory stock .020 over. I am sure it has main studs but I forget if the main caps are modified, I will ask. It does have oiling mods. I don't know the brand of stroker kit. My bro was advised it was good for 7500 but that it would not pull past 7k, and it don't, lol. We hope it will now. We also assume the reason for the small cam is to promote torque?? Or to limit the rpm so it will live??

I think the budget and time would be fine for an upgrade to the cam, especially since the intake has to go back. However I think he wants to give the builder and the package the benefit of the doubt and at least try the combo. I will discuss it with him. The next step up will probably be porting the top end, so when that takes place a new/different cam will again be needed. If and when the bottom goes and it will, I would assume an after market block would be next, provided the CHI parts survive. If they get damaged beyond repair then a 385 series would probably be the next step. When you have a shop full of 400 parts it is had to walk away from them.

The bad thing about pulling is, there is no practice, period. You get one 20 second chance to do good and that's it for the day. You can't even practice at home, there is nothing that can duplicate a sled. Knowing this, it is often very difficult to make yourself change anything, it's like do we dare, will it be worse?

The rules are very liberal, cast iron block, stock crank must fit, any head, carb, intake combo. The head can be aluminum, must be 2 valve and be similar to any factory type. 565 cubic in max for one outfit, 500 max for the other one but anyone can pull, lol

PS: The block has been modified to 4 bolt mains.

Nick


 

 
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 08:34:33 AM by NIsaacs »
2021 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins of course!
2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
2001 Ram 2500 4x4 QC short bed, Cummins, 6spd, some mods
1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

bluef100fe

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2016, 08:22:40 PM »
I've been in this predicament myself. But all those parts are worth a lot more before they get blown up rather than after lol. If the combo used to perform well somebody in a lower class, I would think,  should jump At the chance to upgrade for Their class. Anyway, hopefully you guys get something figured out to get the fords up front.


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Cody Ladowski
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1.56 sixty ft.
7.38 @ 91.5
11.79 @ 111.5

babybolt

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2016, 08:00:54 AM »
There was some guys in Detroit drag racing a 400 block, the Corruncker brothers (not sure I spelled the name correctly), but they could not keep a bottom end in the 400 and eventually had Roush machine some aluminum billet girdles.  The girdle was a one piece chunk with main caps connected to a halo around the oil pan.  I used to have a picture of the girdle.  It had to be expensive back then, must have been in the 1980's before CNC was common.  Anyway, the point is production blocks have there limits, like 5.0L is about 500 hp, FE's about 600-700?, 385 series 800-1,000, then things go boom.

Jim Comet

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2016, 02:40:51 PM »
This may or may not help. It is a link to John Kaase's 2008 engine masters 400M build. Jim

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/0902phr-jon-kaase-400m-ford-engine/


machoneman

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2016, 03:53:40 PM »
Good link for the 400 engine! 

Yah know, I've tried to find an older FRPP catalog ('95? '97?) that had a nice page of NASCAR spec. and Sportsman 351W based blocks with a short summary of features. But the one spec. that stood out was the hp limit of each block (aluminum, steel, 9.5 deck, 9.2 deck, dry sump, wet sump, etc.).

I was a bit surprised to see that the very best iron NASCAR 4-bolt blocks had a max hp rating off 750 hp, this at a time most engines from Yates, Roush, the Woods Brothers and other big name Ford camps were doing at least 800 in unrestricted form.

Point is, an OEM 400 block anywhere near 700-750 hp is not going to last very long IMO.
Bob Maag

NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2016, 05:16:00 PM »
This may or may not help. It is a link to John Kaase's 2008 engine masters 400M build. Jim

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/0902phr-jon-kaase-400m-ford-engine/

Thank you for the link, the guy is amazing!

My Bro talked to Roush before he had the 400 short block built about building a big 460 and he told him a 7k rpm/700 hp engine would require a big wallet but a 900hp/8k engine would need a big check book, lol.

Nick
2021 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins of course!
2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
2001 Ram 2500 4x4 QC short bed, Cummins, 6spd, some mods
1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

falcongeorge

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2016, 12:52:33 AM »
I would just fix the intake. That void is pretty small and would be an easy fix with epoxy. Same with the "hack" marks, just a tootsie roll sander or a little die grinder work and all will be well. I would normally be rubbing on the intake a fair amount anyway, versus bolting it on as cast. A little work here and there will help for sure, my guess is the heads ports are larger anyway. Kind of surprised there doesn't appear to be much effort on the inside of the intake manifold, seeing how the heads are "top secret".
I sorta agree, that shit'll buff out, but really, WTH?? Chisel marks in the runners?? I would be pissed if they sent me that. CHI stuff isnt cheap, I would expect better than that.

NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2016, 07:30:07 AM »
Now the adapters don't fit, what next........?

Nick
2021 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins of course!
2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
2001 Ram 2500 4x4 QC short bed, Cummins, 6spd, some mods
1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2016, 07:32:10 AM »
What doesn't fit? 

Brent Lykins
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NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2016, 07:48:01 AM »
The ports fit perfect and so do the bolt holes, they just don't fit both at the same time. When you line up the bolts the ports are off 3/16". No one wants to take responsibility for the mismatch, so now we have to send the adapter company one of the heads.

Hello...wasn't this combo ever built? We were led to believe it was bolt on and go.

Nick
2021 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins of course!
2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
2001 Ram 2500 4x4 QC short bed, Cummins, 6spd, some mods
1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2016, 07:56:19 AM »
Who are the spacers from?  Price?
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2016, 08:04:53 AM »
Yes...It's like they don't have the specs for the 3v head, how can that be? If that's the case what did the builder order?

Nick
2021 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins of course!
2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
2001 Ram 2500 4x4 QC short bed, Cummins, 6spd, some mods
1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2016, 08:36:44 AM »
It's been over 2 months now since we sent the intake back, still no replacement or explanation what the hold up is, pulling season is getting close...

We did finally get the pulling clutch from Ram, a Sintered Iron Twin Disk. That was a huge hassle also, it's like they never seen or heard of a 400 before and ended up having to send our flywheel so they could build one to fit the clutch.

Nick
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 08:46:39 AM by NIsaacs »
2021 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins of course!
2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
2001 Ram 2500 4x4 QC short bed, Cummins, 6spd, some mods
1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

blykins

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2016, 02:00:53 PM »
I'm a RAM/McLeod/CHI dealer......anytime you need something that seems difficult, just let me know.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2016, 11:06:31 AM »
Thanks, I have an icon for your web site saved, lol

Nick
2021 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins of course!
2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
2001 Ram 2500 4x4 QC short bed, Cummins, 6spd, some mods
1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2016, 07:37:02 AM »
Well, we finally got the intake, the old one Lol! The builder checked with all the CHI dealers in the US and there is not one available anywhere. He says the CHI foundry is having some sort of problems with some equipment and that it might still be a month before one can be made and shipped. The faulty one we shipped back was still in the states so we had it shipped back to us so we can fix it and get going. The first pull is in 2 weeks.

Too much drama to build a 400, my guess is when this blows up a 385 series that we can get parts for will be on the list.

Nick
2021 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins of course!
2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
2001 Ram 2500 4x4 QC short bed, Cummins, 6spd, some mods
1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller

BigBlueIron

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2016, 03:30:30 PM »
Wow that sucks! Hope you can get it repaired and up and running.

NIsaacs

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Re: CHI Products/quality control?
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2016, 07:17:46 PM »
Woo Hoo, all that stress paid off, runs good, some GM guys got a lesson by Ford, lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n51Y7LbwrA

Nick
2021 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins of course!
2017 Ford Escape, 2.0 Eco Boost
2001 Ram 2500 4x4 QC short bed, Cummins, 6spd, some mods
1991 Dodge D250, reg cab, Cummins, 5spd, mods
1974 F-350, Cummins, 5spd, 3spd aux, mods
1975 F-250 4x4, 428, C-6, Sled Puller