Author Topic: Crank Main Bolts  (Read 17795 times)

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FirstEliminator

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Crank Main Bolts
« on: March 01, 2012, 09:02:36 PM »
   Hey guys,

      If we were to change the crank main bolts to a better bolt like an ARP, I believe we'd need to have the mains align honed because the tension is different. It wasn't in the plan to align hone,  so perhaps we should just stay with the stock bolts.

     Comments, Corrections, Advice?

   thanks,
    Mark
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts

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jayb

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2012, 10:04:00 PM »
I would agree that if you're not planning to align hone, stick with the stock bolts and torque specs.  I have to say, though, that I've made the swap to ARP bolts without align honing before and not had any trouble.  If you stayed with the stock torque specs I think you'd be okay even if you went to the ARP bolts.  I wouldn't chance it with studs, though, since they use a fine thread for the nut and that will definitely change the clamping characteristics and torque requirements.

Maybe a more important question is how much power will the engine be making?  If you are under 550 HP or so, the stock bolts should work just fine.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

FirstEliminator

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2012, 10:21:07 PM »
    Hey Jay,

     Thanks for the quick info. Engine will top at 500 if everything works out perfect. 9.8:1 compression, Edelbrock heads out of the box, Barry's 234/240 hydraulic roller, Edelbrock Performer RPM dual quad with two Edelbrock 600's, FPA headers for 66 Comet, 2 1/2 inch exhaust.

     Sounds like the stock bolts will be just fine.

    thanks,
      Mark
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts

70 Cougar XR-7 460 C-6
70 Cougar XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Cougar SS 351w AOD
69 Cougar Sunroof Eliminator 351w FMX
69 Cougar XR-7 390 C-6
68 Monterey 390 C-6
68 Monterey conv 390 C-6
64 Montclair Marauder 390 Merc-O
58 Monterey 383 Merc-O
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
68 Colony Park 428 C-6
68 Colony Park 390 C-6
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
70 Cougar Eliminator 351c 4 speed
I don't feel like a hoarder.

machoneman

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2012, 10:26:06 PM »
I agree with what Jay said to a point but....

If you have a dial bore gauge (dial indicator) and can measure the before/after measurements of the main bearing bores, I doubt that there will be any difference, thread perch and torque specs irregardless, from bolts to studs. On edit: After re-reading my post, I'll add I would not recommend switching from one fastener type to another without checking for bore variances.

If you were talking about head studs versus bolts now that's one you should not do. A new hone or torque plate bore/hone from bolts to studs would make a difference. JMO.  


« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 11:48:19 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 06:10:45 PM »
We've built LOTS of 445s at the 500 level and I have never seeen a broken factory main bolt...

Joe M

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 08:42:16 PM »
I think I'm missing something here.  I would think if the torque spec is the same, it wouldn't matter a bit if you went with different bolts as it's the registers that locate the caps.  The bolts just provide clamping force.  Or is the thinking that increasing the torque would slightly collapse the caps, leading to an egg-shaped condition?  I would hesitate to increase the torque on the main caps because a bolt is only good as what it's threaded into and cast iron is not the best material for a threaded application.

jayb

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 09:50:04 PM »
I think that's correct, if you went with aftermarket bolts but kept the same torque it wouldn't make a difference.  The advantage to the aftermarket bolts would be that you could torque them more, and that could lead to distortion of the main bores.  Your point about cast iron is also valid, which is why most people will change to studs if they move away from the stock bolts.  I've used ARP bolts before because I've been missing the main cap bolts in some disassembled engines I've bought.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Joe M

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2012, 10:24:05 AM »
Got it.  Good discussion.

rcodecj

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 08:57:57 PM »
I think I'm missing something here.  I would think if the torque spec is the same, it wouldn't matter a bit if you went with different bolts as it's the registers that locate the caps.  The bolts just provide clamping force.  Or is the thinking that increasing the torque would slightly collapse the caps, leading to an egg-shaped condition?  I would hesitate to increase the torque on the main caps because a bolt is only good as what it's threaded into and cast iron is not the best material for a threaded application.

The big factor is breakaway torque, which is more influenced by what lube you use on the threads. It is also influenced on a new bolt by how many times you have torqued it.
I agree with Jay in that if you don't torque it more than before it should be ok. ARP likes you to use their lube, so if you were using motor oil with stock bolt, that might make a difference.
I would use the same lube with the ARP bolts and I think you would be ok. The only real way to know is to measure it though.

I had a friend with a 289 that bought aluminum heads, so he also bought Ford Motorsports head bolts. When he assembled the engine he use some kind of moly  lubricant instead of oil and torqued the heads down. He kept snapping head bolts until he realized the moly lube significantly changes the torqued required on the head bolt. Break away torque is more significant than most people realize.

For instance the last time I retorqued my head bolts, I marked the head bolts with a marker to see how far they moved. First I just retorqued them after a day and none moved.
Then I loosened them before retorqueing and they all moved about the same. I think if you're going to retorque the last torque has to be at least 30 ft lbs or so or the bolt won't overcome the breakaway torque. Same thing with initial torque, for those who torque in 10 lb increments, I doubt the bolt is being torqued to final spec.

ScotiaFE

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 10:51:07 PM »
I realize that ARP states you must hone the bores after you swap out the bolts for their bolts/studs, but
if you where putting say an extra 20 lbs of torque using the ARP bolt/stud you would have to actually
compress the main cap to change the diameter of the bore.
I don't think you can compress the main cap by changing the bolt.
If you do manage to compress the main cap with the bolt/stud there will be damage to something. LOL

This is something that I can measure though.
I have a new iron block which comes with bolts and a set of ARP studs.
I will have to do a write up when I get around to it.

jayb

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 08:38:58 AM »
That writeup would be pretty informative, Howie.  FWIW, I have done the same thing with cylinder bores, measuring at different torques for the head studs with a torque plate in place.  You can actually see a couple thousandths difference on the dial bore gauge with a torque difference of 25 ft-lbs.  It will be interesting to see if the mains behave the same way...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2012, 09:39:56 AM »
2x to Howie's plan. Most engine blocks IMHO would resist main cap/bore deflection from a bolt-stud swap simply due to heft and design, like the registers and in some cases dowel-pinned main caps. Have made the swap in some engines to accommodate special bolts/studs, mainly for oil pan scrapers, windage trays or oil deflectors w/o any consequences.  Would like to see as well though a back-to-back comparo.  

On the other hand, using head studs versus bolts and/or not using a torque plate will have consequences. See the vid on how much cylinder bores distort on even a heavy duty 5.9L block. This do not show however a difference when changing from one fastener type to another. The view starting at the 1:30 mark makes the case for using a torque plate (and a few other tricks like ensuring the mains are torqued on as well) on any rebuild. Funny that even for a grocery getter engine it would pay to use plates to maximize ring seal and long life.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cLjdr2GSwU


  
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 09:51:17 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

hotrodfeguy

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2012, 11:24:21 PM »
Holy crap .002 distortion I would have guessed it would be that much :o

4twennyAint

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2012, 11:03:58 PM »
Bolts; different metallurgy = different stretch.  So diff bolts w/same torq/threads/lube will result in diff clamp load and diff ID on main cap. 
1969 Torino Cobra, SCJ 4.30, 4spd under restoration
1964 Fairlane, 428, 4spd, 4.10, 11.63@119 race trim
1966 Fairlane GTA, 482, C6, 3.50, 11.66@117 street trim

Wreckless Warren

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2012, 08:06:26 AM »
I'm accuring parts for my 445 build and ARP Main Cab Bolts are in the box to take to the builder.  What should the torque spec be if using ARP's assembly lube?  I have not broken the seal on the box, is the spec inside? Thanks. ww

rcodecj

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2012, 09:02:02 AM »
I'm accuring parts for my 445 build and ARP Main Cab Bolts are in the box to take to the builder.  What should the torque spec be if using ARP's assembly lube?  I have not broken the seal on the box, is the spec inside? Thanks. ww

It should have instructions in the box. If not try putting your kit number into this link:
http://arpinstructions.com/index2.php?src=arp-bolts

4twennyAint

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Re: Crank Main Bolts
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2012, 08:27:38 PM »
My ARP stuff usually came with a chart, showing the torque if using moly lube and also another value for oil.  Since I just moved I've got it all packed away.   Maybe they have it on-line at the ARP site.  The builder probably will have one of these charts also.
1969 Torino Cobra, SCJ 4.30, 4spd under restoration
1964 Fairlane, 428, 4spd, 4.10, 11.63@119 race trim
1966 Fairlane GTA, 482, C6, 3.50, 11.66@117 street trim