Meziere Electric Water Pumps

[jayb]

I've been looking at using an electric water pump on the street for my new high riser engine, but wanted to go with a high output water pump, like the 55 gpm pumps that Meziere offers.  Unfortunately, they don't offer one for the FE; the biggest FE pump is only 42 gpm, which Meziere says is only good for up to around 650 HP.  The 55 gpm pumps are available for a 385 series Ford and a big block Chev, among others, and they both look like they would work with some modification.  But I don't know if the spacing between the water outlets on either of these engines is close to the same spacing as the FE.

Anybody got a 429 or 460 water pump that they could measure the distance between the holes on and post the dimension?  I'm looking for the center to center dimension of the water pump outlet holes.  Same thing for a big block Chev, if anybody happens to have one.  If you do, you can post anonymously if it makes you feel better

Thanks in advance for any help - Jay

[afret]

Don't know if this will be of any use but here's a link to an ad with a photo of a BBC water pump to FE adapter Tom P was selling.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/75943/thread/1300995862/water+pump+adapters%2C+etc

[Mario428]

Just sent you a .dwg file of the FE and BBC bolt patterns. They are too close to be usable with the water holes aligned but shifting the pump over or down and figuring out the holes may do it.
Think I have the 385 series bolt pattern on my home computer, will look tonight and send it.

[jayb]

Thanks guys, that helps a bunch.  Looks like the BBC pump will work except that the inlet is pointing in the wrong direction for my radiator.  Hopefully the 385 is close too, because I can get that one with the water inlet in the right spot...

[cammerfe]

Stewart makes a 55 gpm inline pump. Cut the hose and clamp it in place.

KS

[Barry_R]

Just use the normal Meziere pump.  I ran one on the street for ten years with Fes up to around 700ish and had zero issues.  Or buy the bigger motor and impeller and stuff it into the FE Meziere housing - most appear to be the same basic piece.  I have no idea how they decided to rate an electric water pump at engine peak horsepower when the on the road temps are not dependent upon peak power in any way.  If you're running a 16v system the pump speed and water flow will go up commensurately....

[ScotiaFE]

I've always wondered that, how would the pump know if you are making 500 hp or 700 hp.
Also you only have 3 to 4 gals of coolant so the the 42 or 55 will move that amount at roughly
the same time period. Is it not the thermostat that regulates flow based on temp?

[jayb]

Just use the normal Meziere pump.  I ran one on the street for ten years with Fes up to around 700ish and had zero issues.  Or buy the bigger motor and impeller and stuff it into the FE Meziere housing - most appear to be the same basic piece.  I have no idea how they decided to rate an electric water pump at engine peak horsepower when the on the road temps are not dependent upon peak power in any way.  If you're running a 16v system the pump speed and water flow will go up commensurately....

I was tempted to do just that, but I called Meziere and they warned me off from that approach.  I don't know how they correlate peak HP with water pump flow requirements, but from the guy I talked to it sounded like they had some experience with that.  When I call a company with credit card in hand, and they don't want to sell me their product because they think there is a technical issue, I have a tendency to listen...

[jayb]

For anyone following this I spoke again today with the folks at Meziere.  They reinforced the idea that I should not use the standard FE 42 gpm pump with an 800 HP engine, and that a 55 gpm pump was needed.  They suggested an externally mounted pump, which they make available, but I told them I didn't have room for that.  I also asked if a 55 gpm motor and impeller from another pump could be bolted into their FE housing, but again they said no, there were several internal differences in the housings and that this approach would just limit the flow rate of the pump. 

Mario previously sent me a drawing for the BBC pump, and the water outlets of the pump were REALLY close to the FE water outlets, but unfortunately the water inlet is pointing the wrong way for my radiator.  He also suggested that I just buy a gasket for a 385 Ford engine to see if it would fit.  I don't know why I didn't think of that myself, but yesterday at lunch I took Mario's advice and went to the NAPA store to pick up the gasket.  It was $3, and it looks like the 385 series pump has water outlets pretty close to the FE too.  So I think I will proceed with that pump, since it is available with the water inlet pointing in the right direction.

I will post more info under this thread when I have acquired the pump and made the adapters required to bolt it to the FE block.

[XR7]

Maybe check out this pump Jay. It is 55GPM 10,000 hr. pump and is a "modular" type pump, where the pump is the same and you can bolt on different mounts for different engines. It appears there are a couple different pumps available, both are 55GPM. I found this by accident as Summit listed the mounts for an FE to this pump, but maybe it is a typo as they list it as a BBF on the manufacturers website. Still if it is close enough it might work, or could be made to work with your skills and resources, chop cut, weld, mill, fab..... do what you have to to make it work. You can angle the inlet either way as it is double drilled, block one off and use the one that works. Take a look...  reasonable cost also.


http://cvrproducts.com/aboutproflo-extreme/

http://cvrproducts.com/pump-assembly/

http://cvrproducts.com/ford-bb-mounting-kit/

http://cvrproducts.com/ford-big-block-billet/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CVS-8460R/

[jayb]

Thanks for the links.  Those things look pretty good, but I am suspicious of their ratings.  The reason is the amperage draw of the motor.  The Meziere 55 gpm pumps draw 11-12 amps, and the CVR pumps only draw 6 amps.  In terms of electrical power, this means the Meziere pumps use twice as much, which means they can deliver twice as much mechanical energy, assuming the effiiciencies of the motors are the same.  There might be some variation in efficiencies there, but its not a 2X kind of thing.  I gotta believe the Meziere pumps will flow substantially better under real life conditions, based on the electrical power consumption.

One thing that is misleading in these kinds of specs is that the companies typically rate their pumps under free flow conditions.  Different pump designs will behave differently when loaded.  You run across this same situation with electric fans; nearly all of the ratings for electric radiator fans are given under no-load conditions.  One reason I buy Spal fans is that they give you the ratings at different pressure drops across the fan, which more closely simulates the real life situation of drawing air through a radiator.  A Spal fan rated at 2000 cfm no load will seriously outperform one of the cheaper fans with the same no-load rating, because the SPAL motors use more electrical power and so can keep the airflow higher under a load condition.  I think the same general argument applies to electric water pumps, so I'll be sticking with the Meziere pump.

[ScotiaFE]

They don't say on the web sites what these pumps spin at.
What rpm does this 55 gpm pump spin at?

[jayb]

I haven't seen any RPM data on any of the pumps, but in any case it would have to be no-load RPM at a particular voltage, unless they could quantify the the inlet pressure in feet of head or something like that.  These pumps really scream for more detailed data, so that you could make an intelligent choice on which one really delivers more flow...

[ScotiaFE]

Ya. There' sure not giving up a lot of data on the motor.
After I took the fan off the 390 there was a definite change in the
running of the engine. For the better.
I have read that you can see 10 hp gain when using a electric pump.
The Meziere motor looks like a quality piece and the CVR and CRS appear to have the
same motor housing. ? Not quite as nice as the Meziere.

[machoneman]

An old but still valid Car Craft fan test:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/215655/message/1066184641/Car+Craft+Cooling+Fan+Dyno+Test