Author Topic: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?  (Read 11496 times)

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Autoholic

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SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« on: May 06, 2015, 05:21:57 PM »
I've been following cammer builds and research for several years now and Mr. Conley's work is unbelievably fascinating. It doesn't look like there has been any new tests since April of 2013 and I was wondering if there was any new testing done since then? I know from the last update a PAC 1555 beehive spring was used but no test results were shown. In recent years, Comp Cams has come out with conical and dual conical springs that appear to be even better than the beehive design. I understand the underlying concept for the conical design, it allows for a progressively changing resonant frequency, making it harder for valve float to happen. The design also allows for natural dampening of the spring. It would be awesome to see tests done that compare these 3 types of springs.

I've lurked in the shadows for a long time and now I'd like to learn more about this wonderful engine in a more direct way.

Thanks,
Joe
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jayb

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 06:58:35 PM »
Nice avatar picture!  Bill ran some tests for me about a year and a half ago, if I recall correctly, but not with any of the spring types that you mention.  Bill is the only guy I know who has a spintron that will run an SOHC, and its a lot of work for him to set up a head and run it on his machine.  For me, after Bill ran the T&D rockers, with both the elephant foot adjuster and the roller tip, and the heavy Manley valves that I have in my SOHCs, I had all the info I needed.  It would be nice to run the same setup with some of the newer springs that you mention, but as mentioned its a lot of work, and since my SOHC runs to 7800 without any trouble now I haven't really needed the info.

Maybe Bill will chime in if he has an interest in running some more tests - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 11:01:55 PM »
Thanks, I found the picture a few years ago in my research. I've been trying to learn as much as I can about this engine so that one day I can start collecting parts, one piece at a time. I'm only 25, so hopefully I'll be able to start collecting soon and sometime in my 30's be able to build her. Had to get my BS in MechE first.


My goal would be a 427 CI (4.238 bore, 3.784 stroke) that can hit 8000 RPM but built so that it could run at 8 grand without getting close to valve float or fatigue / stress issues. So it would need to hit 9000+ before problems started to be present. I know Bill has pulled this off in one of his tests but that didn't involve any modern valve springs. The valves, springs and retainers are your biggest limitations. People already know about hollow stem and titanium valves and retainers. Multicut seats looks to be common place in performance engines for both power and reliability. Springs is where the next advancement is from what I can tell, with my limited experience.

Jay you could probably answer a few questions I have that I can't seem to get a solid answer on. First is why dual springs over single, in your opinion / knowledge? I only seem to be able to find loosely supported arguments for one or the other. I know that dual springs give you the added protection that if 1 fails, the valve won't drop if selected correctly. Or is that a myth? The second question is, do you know what the valve guide material is in Coon's or Pond's heads? I've read from various places that manganese bronze is the best material to use for valve guides and I was wondering if that's what is in the modern SOHC heads. Something tells me that this isn't the material though. Oh and are the new Ferrea valve sodium filled or not? Would you think the sodium would help or hurt the valves? I know the sodium was used because it acts as a coolant for the valves but is this really helpful for the SOHC?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 11:16:09 PM by Autoholic »
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jayb

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2015, 11:17:33 PM »
Thanks for blowing up that picture, I think that may be the same one, or a similar one, as shown on the cover of the January 1965 issue of Hot Rod.

As I understand it the dual valve springs are there for two purposes, one is to increase the spring rate, and the second is that the harmonic frequency they tend to resonate at is different for the two springs, so they tend to cancel out the resonant frequencies of each other, to help prevent valve float.

I don't know the material of modern guides, but they are certainly a bronze alloy.  Whether or not that is manganese bronze, I don't know.

Factory SOHCs went to at least 8500 RPM, with springs that were around 120 pounds on the seat and 320 pounds open.  They were able to do this because of the fairly slow ramps built into the cams, and because the valves were so light.  A factory SOHC intake valve, with the hollow stem, weighs about 100 grams.  The Manley valves I run in my engines weigh about 150 grams.  Couple the additional 50% weight with a more aggressive cam profile, and you need a stiffer spring.  But nowhere near as stiff as the spring you'd need to run 8500 RPM on a wedge FE engine.  Bill Conley ran the last head I sent to him to 8000 RPM with no issues, and I'm going to redline the engine at 7700, so I'm happy where I'm at, which is about 250 pounds on the seat and 650 open.

If you want to run a light valve, you are stuck now with titanium valves, or else the Ferrea valves for the SOHC that are hollow stem.  They weigh around 125 grams if I recall correctly, so they are much better than the Manleys for weight, and not real fragile like the Ford hollow stems.  However, they don't flow all that well; my flow tests show them down 10% to 15% in flow compared to the Manleys, on the same port.  For somebody running a nostalgia motor they are a good choice, and would allow a much lighter valve spring than the Manleys require, but for a max effort combination like mine, they kill too much power.

Hope that helps - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2015, 11:35:03 PM »
No, the below pic is the popular one from Hot Rod, which I happen to have that issue and can share the article, more on that later. ;)



When I said research, I mean obsessively over the SOHC and the 427 Cobra (the car I want to put it in.) I have photographically cataloged over a dozen Cammer Cobras. Roughly half a dozen 60's-70's Mustangs, several Galaxies, Starliners, Fairlanes and even a Torino and a Marauder. I even have a fully detailed CAD file of the SOHC that I found and digital scans of the shop manual. My screen name is Autoholic for a reason, LOL.

So the Ferrea hollow stems take a hit on flow compared to you Manley's. Is it possible to copy the shape onto the Ferrea valves? How much more would it cost to have Ferrea copy the design? Are their custom valves far more expensive? Do you think there would be a tangible benefit of using sodium filled over hollow stem? Besides cooling, there has to be another reason Ford went with it.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 12:12:51 AM by Autoholic »
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WConley

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2015, 12:37:52 AM »
Hi Joe -

Welcome!  The last tests I did were for Robert Pond were with PAC 1555 beehive springs.  They were stable at 8,000 rpm with T&D steel rockers pushing (If I remember correctly) Ferrea hollow stem valves.  The cam was a comp with .720" lift.

I do like those beehive springs.  The new conical springs would be interesting to test as well.  I'm currently super busy with a couple of entrepreneurial ventures on top of a regular job.  (Why can't I summon Jay's energy??) 

I could dig up a few pictures and videos from that test session if you like!

Oh - The double spring inner does act as a damper as Jay describes.  There is more to it than just a different spring rate though.  The damper is actually a snug fit to the outer spring, and rubs on it.  This takes energy away in the form of heat.  I've seen these springs smoking on my machine, and the old Ford dyno guys told me that during high speed durability runs they would need to keep plenty of oil jetting to the springs or they'd glow red! 

What we've found to be very effective is setting the springs up tight - about .050" or less from solid at max lift.  Having the coils bind up snug at max lift will disrupt the resonance of coil surge, and the intermediate coils will move a lot less.  Also you don't want to run adjustable rockers for very long over 6,000 rpm in a SOHC.  The oil film at the valve stem tip does not stand up more than about 30 seconds.  That's fine for a drag pass, but I've got a collection of broken valves and burned up adjusters from sustained tests on the machine.  The non-adjustables work fine up there, and it seems the old timers knew this back in the day.

Have fun on your quest!  It's less impossible than ever now to get a SOHC together.

- Bill


Edit - Forgot to add that none of the new valves are sodium-filled.  That was only used on the exhaust valve anyway back in the day.  The sodium would change phase and enhance heat transfer, but the downside was that it would slowly corrode the valve stem from the inside.  Lots of guys learned an expensive lesson about tossing those sodium valves after a certain amount of time.

I've heard a few people argue that they've seen Ford sodium-filled intake valves.  I've got plenty of original Ford SOHC intake valves and they're all empty hollow stem.  As a fellow engineer, you can appreciate how useless a heavy crumbly powder like sodium would be in an intake valve.  Now when it gets hot and turns to liquid in an exhaust valve...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 12:54:38 AM by WConley »
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Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 01:30:49 AM »
Thanks for the input Bill! I've read, and saved, every one  of your tests. So any additional  pics and videos of the Beehive test would be awesome.

I understand the interference damping of the dual spring design and that the downside of this design is the friction. The new dual conical design does not need an interference fit, as the conical design is naturally damped. So heat in the valvetrain would go down, resulting in better part life. The only problem I see right now is how new the conical and dual conical valves are, Comp doesn't make a set with 1.55" OD for the bottom. However that can be fixed and something tells me that they would be more than happy to come out with another size for their new flagship springs. They also just announced that they are making the stub cam for the SOHC. I'd love to see some tests by you Bill that compare these 3 spring designs. I have a feeling that the dual conical will come out on top. The beehive only alters the top of the spring shape, so a good portion of the springs will still have a similar resonant frequency to their cylindrical cousin. I'm sure the beehive shape is what started engineers thinking about a conical spring design though. One idea is a spring board for another, no pun intended.

While I don't have the means to pursue this idea right now, one thing I'd like to do with a SOHC is create a new gear drive system. I only know of 2 gear drive SOHC's. One was Sneaky Pete Robinson's and another was more recently (past 10 years?). Each one had a slightly different design with their own merits. Sneaky Pete's design reversed the cam direction for one of the cams but it didn't clear a distributor.



The other design did not reverse one of the cams but it was designed to fit in a standard timing cover.


I have a full CAD version of a SOHC and have started the designs of a gear drive but I don't have a high end CAD program, so a radius doesn't come out beautiful. I'd love to play around with it in SolidWorks but that is expensive and I don't have that kind of money right now. The design would be made to do both, reverse the cam direction for the driver's side cam and still fit inside a regular timing cover. I'd use double helical gears due to the fact that there is zero play, unlike spur gears. This is beneficial for precise, consistent timing of the cams. They also can handle much higher loads, both sustained and impulse, due to how they ease the load onto and off of each gear. Spur gears cannot do this because there is never more than 1 set of cogs engaged (under load). This also makes helicals quieter and smoother in operation, due to always having at least 2 sets of cogs touching.

The draw back to helical over spur is a slightly higher friction coef. The benefit of double helical over regular helical is that there isn't an axial load that is present in regular helical gears. Using a material designed for use in transmissions would help decrease the friction coef while ensuring ample strength. Sure the design would cost more over a spur gear setup but this design would have a far smaller chance of failing. There is a reason gear drives are used in F1 these days, however I do believe they use spur gears. Their engines however are torn down and inspected regularly. I'd rather design something that won't need inspection.

The only downside to a gear drive is the need to create an oil squirting device. I believe that you have done this Jay, for the timing chains?

Thanks for the added info about the sodium filled exhaust valves. It never crossed my mind to think about how useless it would be in an intake valve. I'm sure there is a decent difference between the two on temp. This has made be wonder what fills the inside of hollow stems? Are they filled with nitrogen? THIS is an important piece to think about. What would weigh less, hollow stems or titanium?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 01:45:46 AM by Autoholic »
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Barry_R

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 04:06:21 AM »
Hi Bill - good to see you on the forums - even for a minute.
I know about busy!

Your testing really showed/proved the "double roller" rocker and the tight to bind strategy.  That's how I've built the last couple Cammers around here and how I would built the "next one" whenever that happens.  So far so good!

I'm not as enamoured of the gear drives as some folks are.  Plenty of newer cars run very, very well with chains having a longer distance between sprockets than the Cammer, as long as alignment is attended to and guides are in place.  I know I have fallen victim to "for and aft" sprocket alignment issues at least once, and suspect that it has bitten an old timer or two in the distant past giving rise to the failure prone parts reputation.  Each sprocket in a Cammer is mounted/indexed to a different element - cams, heads, crankshaft, timing cover, idler, tensioner - leading to lots of tolerance variance and stack up opportunities.  Getting them all in line removes all the chatter and snaps when turning it over on the engine stand - gotta help at high RPM...

Several years ago now Jay provided measured data and I provided the contacts at Comp to redevelop the SOHC camshafts they had in their line.  Before that we were both getting different measurements at the valve than the cam card said we should.  Comp's old designs were symmetrical in concept but not in execution, and did not reflect the impacts of the rocker positions on the left/right head nor the ratio variability on the direct on cam roller contact.  The newer Comp lobes are unique left/right/intake/exhaust for a cam pair, and are a huge step forward from their old patterns.  Having never checked an original set in such a fashion (had a pair here but missed the opportunity) I cannot say whether we moved forward or retraced our steps - but SOHC development has certainly come a ways from where it was a few years ago when they were largely relegated to museum status.

jayb

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 08:16:44 AM »
You can't copy the shape of the Manleys onto the Ferreas; there would have to be material added to make them the same.  And I don't think that they have a hollow stem blank that would duplicate the Manley shape, so you'd have to buy the minimum order for a custom hollow stem valve, which is 250 parts.  Easier to work with the Manleys, or get some custom titanium valves.  I know one guy running the titanium valves and I think he said they were 110 grams each.

Regarding the oil squirters, they are just short, cut off brake line tubes, put into the front oil passage on the SOHC heads.  They are not designed to oil the chain; the chain gets plenty of splash, and doesn't need more oiling.  The squirters are designed to oil the bearings in the fuel pump gear and the tensioner gear.  My feeling is that those may get insufficient splash, so to ensure long life I direct a tiny stream of oil into the ball bearings on these gears.

Quite a while back I did a bunch of extensive dyno testing on one of my SOHCs, to try to determine how much the chain stretched at various engine speeds.  This was on a 650 HP engine with fairly mild cams and springs.  I set the engine up with magnets on the stub cam gear and the cam gear in each head, and used some high speed magnetic sensors to record the data digitally (my regular job is all about magnetic sensors).  What I found was that between 3000 and 7000 RPM, the right cam retarded 3-4 degrees, and the left cam actually advanced 2 degrees.  For years afterwards I set up the cam timing on my engines to compensate for that, and they ran fine that way.  I saw no need for a gear drive.

Fast forward to last year, with my 577" SOHC on the dyno.  I was using a Megasquirt MS3X EFI box for engine control, and it has the capability to accept data from up to four cam sensors.  It already has the crank sensor required for engine timing, of course, so I took the opportunity to add two cam sensors to this engine, and log the data with the MS3X.  This time, the data looked completely different.  One thing I had never been able to check with my original testing was how the cam timing behaved from idle, or cranking for that matter, to 3000 RPM.  What the MS3X data shows was an immediate 3-4 degree retard of the cams in this range.  And then, in the 3000-7000 RPM range, it showed both cams retarding even further, for a total of 8-9 degrees retard on the left cam, and 12 degrees retard on the right cam.

These values are so far off from my original testing that I am a little skeptical of them.  I don't know what algorithm is used inside the MS3X to measure the cam advance/retard, and how accurate it is, whereas with the original data I was collecting the information via a datalogging oscilloscope, and had excellent data resolution and repeatability.  But if the data is correct, it is a real eye opener.  This engine uses much heavier valve springs than the original test engine I used back in 2006, which would have a significant effect on chain stretch.  The cams are also much bigger, leading to more load on the chain.  Finally, this engine made the most power with the cams very, very far advanced, something like a 103 degree intake centerline.  The cams are ground on 114 degree lobe centers, so if they are retarding 10 degrees or so, then they are straight up in the peak horsepower range, which also makes sense.

This year when I get the engine back together I plan to do more testing to try to nail this down.  But if I can confirm last years results, then I think a gear drive might be a big improvement to the engine, especially with big cams and springs.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 09:54:19 AM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

BruceS

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 09:20:31 AM »
Great discussion, I'm enjoying it and the pictures!

A buddy of mine is putting together an M/T tribute '64 Thunderbolt with a Cammer.  The Cammer has aftermarket heads but otherwise a nostalgia build.  I'll post some pics when it's ready to unveil. 

Bruce
66 Fairlane 500, 347-4V SB stroker, C4
63 Galaxie 500 fastback, 482 SO 4V, Cruise-O-Matic

WConley

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2015, 10:51:26 AM »
Joe -

That gear setup on the blue-red engine was built by a gentleman named Nat in Lake Havasu, NV.  I bought his original chain drive parts after he converted the engine.  I also rescued a pristine factory dual quad intake that he was getting ready to cut up for an experiment!

I wonder if that engine ever fired.  Oh- Dove had some cammer gear drives in the 90's, and I was tempted to buy one.  The herringbone gear design would be a good one for this application.  It would be super quiet, but as BarryR mentions, you will have to accurate locate the gear heights using a plate.  Herringbones don't play well at different heights!  You'll also have to set them up pretty tight to minimize backlash.

I've done a fair amount of cammer dreaming on Pro/E 3-D software.  All I need is more time :-)

- Bill

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SOHC and DOHC Cam Chains
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2015, 11:49:24 AM »
This discussion has me wondering how long Ford's Modular SOHC and DOHC cam chains are, and how well controlled cam timing is.


Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2015, 12:10:46 PM »
Something you guys have to realize with modern chain drives is that the chains are shorter. There could be longer distances but modern engines use two chains, one for each head. That plays a significant role in how much the chain will stretch. Secondly, modern engines use a dynamic tensioner driven by oil pressure to take up slack. The SOHC has a static tensioner. If you were to design an oil driven tensioner for the SOHC, that would improve the timing. When it comes to cars, I can be very OCD and this plays into why I'd go for a gear drive. It will also reverse the rotation of the driver side cam, so that the way the cams act upon the rockers will be the same. Yes, I'm aware that Comp has specially designed cams to take this into account. Something tells me though that there is a difference in how the engine performs from the left bank and the right bank based off of different stresses between the two cams while operating. Is a gear drive overkill? Yes, but there is peace of mind in knowing that your timing will likely never see a failure. It will take a lot of engineering to create a double helical gear drive that works flawlessly but attention to detail and getting it done right is something I love doing. It's not about what's good enough to do the job. Yes, it's easy to talk about what you want to do. Only time will tell if I get the opportunity to do this.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 12:30:47 PM by Autoholic »
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thatdarncat

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2015, 12:45:05 PM »
Actually quite a few SOHC & DOHC engines that use a single long timing chain, Mercedes Benz for one.




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Autoholic

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Re: SOHC Valvetrain Testing?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2015, 01:14:42 PM »
Thanks for the correction Kevin! They do have very well designed, oil pressure driven tensioners.
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