New Iron FE Heads

[YoungOne]

Allow me to to introduce myself. As my moniker says and I am willing to except, I do not have the years of knowledge or experience as Mr. Brown, Mr. Patrick, or any where the renowned Mr. Robotnick. ( I know I can lay it on a little thick) To be honest my experience with the the FE engine family is limited to only 4 in over 30 years how ever each one was instrumental to the joyous perversion of my soul. (getting thick again.) The latest incarnation is a nicely built 397 under the hood of my old mule,(GURDY) and as I sit here, it is a worry to me that some day, whilst under the influence of octane something horrible will happen causing the 54 year old castings to let go and my MAGNIFICENT BEAST will sit idle once again. That, is quite honestly, something to hard to bare. She is my elation and a tie to my youth, back to days when, what ever it was melted as the miles rolled. To go with out her company is something that I have done once, for ten long years she sat, never judging or condemning me for the time it took for her to run again and she shall never again sit helpless. (I wax poetically when it come to her, my wife and kids the rest of the world be damned.) So to protect the 700 purchase price some 22 years ago I would like to see, please, a new set of IRON FE heads.

Why iron? You ask when there are more then a few choices available in aluminum. Why the Edlebrocks are only 1660 from JEG's assembled, or 2500 from Mr Robotnick who dose them right, or better yet his fine casting also at 2500. Inevitably there will be a reference to BBM's at around 2250-2500 as well so what is my problem? OK, here is my problem, I and I believe a large majority of FE builders are in the same boat. I can not just come up with 2500 like that, and, when I get close something happens I.E, roof, water heater, furnace, braces etc. etc. etc. So I run ported C1AE-A's 2.09/1.65 and if Stan Weiss' web page can be trusted, and I believe it can, my little pieces of crap don't do that bad at all. I simply run a little tighter lash on the exhaust side of my 270s and pray I don't suck a valve. So how did I come up with the 2500 to build the C1's? Simple, I didn't, it was more like 50 bucks for the pair at the local U, Pull It. 250 for valves springs and retainers from DSC (Dennis is hard to get a hold of some times but a good guy none the less) and if I could have swung the 500 for CJ heads I would have done that, but I believed I could do as good or better then CJs with a little porting so 800 later for the rebuild and porting on the heads. I traded work for the balance at the machine shop as well 4 sets of other FE heads I had pulled over the years. That I believe is same boat many are in but they either don't have a friend in a machine shop, or a skill they can barter, making getting a good set of heads a lot harder then most think let a lone a stroker kit. Were happy with a 3U crank and C7 rods Probe slugs and C6's C1's C4's or whatever we can get our hands on to put on top. Then we are told. "Should a run Edels cus cost is the same and there better" Better, really? When honest flow benches show they don't flow with enough improvement to make them worth it unless there seriously tweaked and that adds to the coast.

Well why do you think you could afford a set of new Iron heads you might ask. Well if we look at the small block Ford that has been out of production for more then a decade you would find 3 different manufacturers who offer both Aluminum and iron with the iron being much less expensive, nearly 300 less per head, even though the work to make a casting is close to the same. Now you will say the market has enough options and to many more would just flood it. Then why is there Edelbrock, RHS, Dart, World, Brodix, Trickflow, Avenger, AFR, as well those I cant think of casting heads for a dead platform? Because competition brings out the best, that's why a 331 windsor can make 500hp with little more then heads and a cam and we will not talk about the "C" engines. Then you might say there is no real market because most guys want the weight savings of aluminum in there cars. OK point taken, but the last car to get an FE was around 71 and for 5 more years they still ran in the F series truck, so a larger market is in the trucks then in cars and those of us with trucks don't care about 50 more pounds so long as they run.

So here is my idea, and, after all this, pleas, consider it before you call me a fool. Why cant we take the C6 as a platform and go from there, as it has been shown that with stock small bore valve location they can move air when done right. Then put the intake into the hands of Mr. Patrick, the exhaust can go over to Mr. Colvert. Then the piece de resistance put Mr. Robotnic's Chamber in it to tie it all together and bring the timing down. Cast them for the 2.04/1.55 with room to go out to 2.15/1.65. Hold on you say it should have the capacity for 2.2 intake. Well again I do have reasons. The first is they are not meant to be flat out 4.13+ bore size race heads just hipo 4.08 bore heads. Second to get the 2.20 intake in you have to mess around with valve center lines making it a possibility that the cylinder wall could cause valve shrouding, I am sure some one will point out how wrong I am but, 2.15 will fit in the C6 heads along with 1.65 exhaust and the actual curtain area (circumference times lift) difference between the 2.15 and the 2.2 is 97 percent that is not a significant loss. If they were built with a focus on low to mid lift around .650 lift velocity improvements would be significant allowing for a 3.78 stroke engine build even more torque and that is what makes the world go around. Shop out the casting to one of the above listed iron casters I truly don't think you would have to work to hard to prove a market share. Put them out at 550 each bare, don't even offer them built just raw at jobber cost. Mr. Robotnick the biggest complaint that I see about your head is they are in a constant state of back order, one would have to consider what could happen when these hit the market, I doubt they would effect your market share to the negative as I explain below and at the same time your market share would open up with this new product. For me it might take time but 550 I could come up with, while most could do it easier then myself and that would be great because once the word got out they would move. I wouldn't care if the serial numbers didn't match as long as I could set the timing at 36 and get more juice out the old girl and not have to worry that I was going to blow a gasket or suck a valve or wonder where is the next place I can get 105 high led to mix with the 91 in the tank. Finally what would happen to the aluminum head market would it hurt it or help it again I think it would help it for 3 reasons.

One, the very reason why  there are still iron heads for Ford, Chrysler and "C" is for the younger guys to get started on and after they get as far as they can go aluminum is the next logical step think of them as gateway heads to a more hard core addiction. Two, the non stroker crowd for example a friend inherited a 1969 f100 swb from his grandfather on his passing. When the engine needed to be rebuilt the heads, some C8's were wore out now yes he did just go and get a used set of D2,s from the wrecking yard but only after getting sticker shock on the Edlebrock heads had there been an option of these heads closer to 1500 out the door he would have jumped. Three those of us who get it. My final example is me a friend with a very nasty 8- second nova running an alcohol injected 410 sprint car engine, all ways asks me. Why did I build and FE when I could have built a 514 for less and got SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more? My reply. "Its like getting seven the hard way you earn every inch and no one can say didn't earn it

There I explained the best I could my reasoning and I lay my request at your feet. Perhaps it is to great, but, if just one other youngone could experience the feel of a "cammed" 390  with a set of these heads as she roared down some back road some where on some sunny day how could you beat that. (Do you remember?) 

[jayb]

Welcome to the board.  I think there's a lot of people out there who would love to see an inexpensive, cast iron aftermarket FE head made available.  Unfortunately, the cost savings that it sounds like you are expecting from a cast iron head probably won't be there.  I think an aftermarket cast iron FE head would be almost the same price as an aftermarket aluminum head.

Just looking at the Summit web site, and at small block Chevrolet aftermarket heads, the cheapest cast iron head is $300, and the cheapest aluminum head is $415.  That $115 difference is basically the difference in the cost of the materials.  A small block Chev head weighs about as much as an FE head, so I think that the cost difference for a cast iron vs. aluminum FE head would be about the same.

In terms of tooling, the costs to tool up a cast iron head would be about the same as for an aluminum head.  In terms of manufacturing headaches, the cast iron head would be much worse; there are lots of aluminum foundries out there, but cast iron foundries are not as plentiful as they once were, and cast iron is trickier to pour than aluminum.  From a manufacturer's standpoint, cast iron is much less attractive as a result.  Also, aluminum is much easier to machine than cast iron.  There are lots of places that will machine anything in aluminum, but that don't want cast iron in their CNC machines because it is hard on the tooling and abrasive on the machines themselves.  You would have to find a CNC shop willing to deal with those issues.

When you figure in the costs of the tooling and the headaches of working with cast iron, I can't imagine that a cast iron FE head would be more than $200 per pair cheaper than a pair of cast aluminum heads.  So, why does it ever make sense to make an aftermarket head out of cast iron?  One word - Volume.  If you are building thousands of heads, the cost savings can be substantial.  That's why cast iron heads are available for the most popular engines, like a small block Chevrolet or a small block Ford.  Could you sell a thousand or more cast iron FE heads, to justify the investment and make the cost savings attractive?  I don't know, but if the price difference is only a couple hundred bucks at a cost per pair of around $1500, I think there would be a signficant incentive to spend the extra money and go with aluminum.

[RJP]

There are lots of used iron heads still available if you look. Granted, the wrecking yard FEs are getting sparse especially when scrap prices are high. But there are other sources such as private hoarders such as myself. I have collected about 16-17[?] sets of common FE heads such as EDCs, C1s, C4s, C6s, C8s, D2s and some that aren't as common. So many I will never use all I have in this lifetime or even into the next. Also as a hardcore Ford guy that is into FEs and 385 series engines these parts just seem to fall out of the sky for me as other car guys in my area know I collect this stuff. So as a result most parts are free, just "get 'em outta hear, I'm tired of tripping over this junk" The last 3 or 4 sets of FE heads were free for the taking, just had to pick them up. A couple of sets were even delivered for me. Guys move and don't want to take the parts with them. Other guys die off and the widow wants the garage cleaned out [That will be my wife when I kick the bucket] Even still other guys change projects and accumulated parts are no longer needed, not to speak of the guys who just plain quit and dump their inventory. With all the vintage iron still out there I don't see a market for a new "replacement" iron head when aluminum is so dominate.

[Drew Pojedinec]

Youngone,
Where are you at.
If you were local to me, I'd pretty much give you a set of D2TE heads, just cuz.
I'm sure others would feel the same way.
I personally would never buy a set of iron heads.  The only reason I could even see running a set would be for originality sake in a Factory 428 CJ car or something along those lines.

[machoneman]

Or rare heads like Tunnel Ports or Hi-Risers. Most FE heads are a dime a dozen today.

[ScotiaFE]

Welcome
What is "GURDY"?
There was a time when a new 427 iron block was only a pipe dream.
Nothing wrong with a dream.

[NIsaacs]

What is Gurdy?

I am going to guess; a name used to show affection of something old, as in a vehicle, rifle, any old keepsake. Like great grandma Gertrude or Girtie.....

Nick

[cjshaker]

Or rare heads like Tunnel Ports or Hi-Risers. Most FE heads are a dime a dozen today.

HEY, don't forget Medium-Riser heads   There are a handful of people like me who are just stubborn and like to run old iron, just to prove you don't have to have modern stuff to have a car or truck that runs great and is lots of fun

Most people find it hard to believe I still run bone stock iron MR heads and a factory steel crank in my original block 427 with a factory intake and carb set-up. How many stock stroke all iron 427s do you see these days? Except for the distributor, when I open my hood, all you see is original Ford parts. That, by itself, is pretty cool to see, in my opinion.

But I agree, reproducing iron heads is not feasible or cost effective when people would rather have aluminum.

[YoungOne]

Scotia, Gurdy is a not to pretty 1970 f250 and my pride and joy. Jay I understand the tooling aspect of things and I will agree that iron is harder to work so why is it that aluminum is so spendy when it is easier to pour and work and the tooling is already there? Also could you afford to put out 30% of your yearly pay to build an engine for one of your cars? I couldn't I only spent 10000 a mere 20% and it was all I could afford for a 397 but I got the best I could for what I had.  Blue thunder intake Dove roller rockers Ross pistons Akerly/Child rings Ferrea valves 209/165 and for each piece I busted my Butt swinging my hammer through the week and scrounging parts on the week end and I would not trade it for the world. But what if I could have saved a couple hundred bucks and could be able to run a little less advance for a more fuel friendly engine as a bonus. A new set of modern heads out of iron could do that.  RJP you see I too hoard parts, at my peak I had 3 sets of C1's 2 of C6's 3 of C4's 3 of C7's 5 blocks 8 cranks C1, and C3's 2U's and my list went on. Selling these parts paid the bills from time to time when my hammer was put away for the winter as well paid for part of the work done on my mill but that is not the point you see most of the old school heads need 40* advance and are not to fuel friendly Mr. Robotnics head only need 36* that is a lot better on the fuel and more power with out having to give up some compression. Drew thanks but no, as I keep trying to say is let the old stuff sit and be used by those who want to, and the new stuff. 1 Is out of my price rang 2 is really set up for the 4.13 bore, for example the Ed's intake's are move out .060 out but that can cause a shrouding issue on a 4.08 bore. And my C1's did not need to be moved to get 2.09's in them and ported flow close to what Ed's Ad's say. So it is very possible to put better valve into a standard bore and get good flow with out the shrouding issue ad the ability to bring the timing down and you too would be a believer in iron. So I guess if it cant be done why not a less expensive (NOT CHEAP) set of heads for the 4.05 bore set up with low to mid lift .650 and less with volume and velocity as the key for less than 1500 bare say 1000 could it be done? Or better yet would it when people are programmed to pay 1500 a set? And Jay that is why I think it is a good and viable Idea, the market is there we have new players coming in all the time why not make room for the little guy there who built the FE in the beginning 

[jayb]

Jay I understand the tooling aspect of things and I will agree that iron is harder to work so why is it that aluminum is so spendy when it is easier to pour and work and the tooling is already there?

The difference is in the cost of the material itself; aluminum is a lot more expensive than cast iron.  Also, you can't use cast iron tooling to build aluminum heads, and vice versa.  I think if someone were to build cast iron aftermarket FE heads, they might cost $1300 a set, instead of the $1500 a set for aluminum.  To me, the $200 savings wouldn't be worth the extra weight you'd carry around with the cast iron.  JMO, of course 

[YoungOne]

Exactly! In your instance I can see that the extra weight would be the primary consideration, where in my situation budget is what is called a major constraint and 200 is a set of decent intake and exhaust valves. Let say the price could be 600 bare, a little trade here and there and within a year I could get a set. We all know how much work has to go into the old stuff which drive up the total cost but new heads do not need as much work especially with fast as cast as they say now days. So now you have 1200 for heads 200 for valves 125 for springs locks retainers from DSC and  a 300 dollar valve job a cartridge roll home port job (One of the old Iron porters could put out a dvd for the DIY crowd for the 2.04 and 2.09 valve with enough left on the table for the 2.15 to be ported professionally to be given with a purchase of a pair heads or sold for 50 bucks think about it) and your down the road with a set of heads that will last longer then your long block for under 2 grand that is a win, win.

[cjshaker]

We all know how much work has to go into the old stuff which drive up the total cost but new heads do not need as much work especially with fast as cast as they say now days.

That statement is incorrect. Almost every bit of machine work needs to be done, or re-done, on a set of new heads as well as old heads. New heads and blocks are machined, but only to a given tolerance for production. They will be useable, but they will not be to the standards that many of us prefer them. They need to be cut/trued, valve seats should be done over for optimum service and performance. Guides will need to be checked and adjusted because a good build needs better tolerances than new parts come with, and what most of us expect and want. New parts do not come perfect and this has been the proven truth from day one. Unless you just want a basic generic rebuild, they all need springs, valves, keepers etc to match the cam and engine they are being built for, so the price is all the same as far as that goes. Many a people have bolted on out-of-the-box heads only to have problems down the road.

That's often why people go with modern heads, if you're going to have all that work and expense into an old set of heads, you may as well step up to a modern chamber with the detonation advantages of aluminum.

[ScotiaFE]

Many a people have bolted on out-of-the-box heads only to have problems down the road.

I can't agree with that statement.
You can pull a set of Ed's out of the box, give them a look over to make sure all the parts are where they should be.
Bolt them on. And go racing. If you have a problem with them I'm pretty sure Vic will want to know.
They make an outstanding product for a reasonable cost and have proven to be very reliable.
Edelbrock's intake and head package is pretty hard to beat for cost and durability.
Bolt on a 390 short block and make 400 plus HP with enough cam of course.
This not even my opinion, it has been tested by Barry R.

Edit: found it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpD7fpKWpXw

[machoneman]

Seems our newest poster is determined to have someone cast up new iron FE heads. I say, go for it. ...even though it's quite unlikely IMO that will ever happen.

That said, I'll suggest you repeat your desires to the folks at BBM, Bear Block Motors, and implore them to start making those iron heads as no one here is in a position to do so nor desires the job.

Hey, they may even start some test marketing on various Ford sites by posting, especially from a brand new website poster, the apparent 'need' for said iron heads to see if demand would warrant such a head.   

http://bearblockmotors.com/bbm-ford-fe-cylinder-heads/
   

[KMcCullah]

It's a fresh idea but not a real money maker in my opinion. The FE world is literally full of iron heads these days because of the aftermarket aluminum heads. Everybody has a set or two of iron heads stashed. It would be hard for me to justify the expense in manufacturing new iron heads for this reason alone. Not to mention the ease of machining, the weight savings, and the heat transfer qualities of aluminum.