New to FE Power, thinking about a cam upgrade.

[Yellow Truck]

New to FE Power, not quite as new to FEs. I have been a member at Ford-Trucks for some time, but was pointed over here as some of the deep expertise in FEs have left that forum.

I have a 69 F100 4WD, it had a 360 and I had a 390 rotating assembly and was looking for some better heads when I found a 410 near me at a decent price. It has C8AE-H heads with stock valves and rockers, but it has been ported and intake matched. The guy who built it is timid about cams, so it has a basic "RV" cam -

• Lift: 484 – 510
• Duration: 270 – 280
• Duration at 0.05: 204-212
• Lob: 107-117

The truck has headers and a 600 cfm Edelbrock. I'll post the rear wheel dyno numbers when I figure out how on this forum, but in a nut shell the truck is a bit of as street rod, not a work truck, and with an NP435 in it, you really only have three gears to work with (1st: 6.68/2nd: 3.34/3rd: 1.66/4th: 1), so you are usually in the wrong gear and the power range from the engine is pretty narrow.  I'm looking for better power above 4,500 RPM, I don't need to pull stumps, so I can give up some low end torque for a better curve. It doesn't need to be a smooth daily driver, some chop is acceptable.

I'm no expert at cams, but I'd like to make sure I'm using the best info. I'm going to pull the motor to tackle some oil leaks and give us better access to the motor, and I'm going to do a partial tear down so we can take some measurements for spring height, spring spacing, inspect the cam journals etc. While we have it apart is there anything I should pay attention to regarding cam selection? I should mention that I'd rather not pull the heads for machining to fit bigger springs, but if it is worth it I would consider it. Might get hardened valve seats at the same time.

I've been speaking to Lunati about a hydraulic roller cam - this is their suggestion for a custom grind:

• LSA: 112
• Overlap: 6
• Intake Center Line: 108
• Valve Timing: Exhaust 51/-1 Intake 7/43
• Duration: 296
• Duration @ 0.050: 230
• Valve Lift: 568
• Lobe Lift: 328

Advice on what I need to know, or on cams generally welcome.

[ScotiaFE]

Pretty sure if you put that cam in you will have to change springs.
No need to machine the spring pockets though for bigger springs.
Normally you fit the exhaust for hard seats and just run the stock iron seat.
You may want to look at stepping up to Edelbrock heads for a budget up grade.
Or Felony or BBM for serious up grade.
The C8 well a decent head for a stock build they fall short for a Hot Rod build.

[jayb]

Welcome to the forum.  More info would be helpful, such as are you planning to run on pump fuel, do you know the compression ratio of the engine, what intake manifold are you running, what is the diameter of the valve springs you have now, are the rockers adjustable ( I assume not), etc.

First thing I think about when picking a cam is what is the compression ratio of the engine.  Cam and compression have to be matched for best performance.  And, unfortunately, relying on what some manual says or what the previous engine builder says is not a good way to settle on your compression ratio.  Best thing to do is to pull one of the heads and measure the combustion chambers, and do the same thing on one of the cylinder with the piston at TDC.  If you are going to pull the motor, I'd pull at least one head and do that.  Once you know the real compression ratio of the engine, its going to be easier to pick cam duration using a DCR (Dynamic Compression Ratio) calculator.

A couple other random comments would be to go with the roller cam setup if you can afford the hardware, because a roller (hydraulic or mechanical) will make more power than an equivalent flat tappet.  Make sure you get good lifters (Morels seems to be the favorites), and rocker shaft end stands that support the part of the rocker shaft on the FE that is normally cantilevered out each end (Precision Oil Pumps makes a nice set).  And I'd dump that Edelbrock carb for a good Holley.  Just my opinion on that one...

Good luck on the project and keep us updated on your progress - Jay

[Yellow Truck]

Thanks for the input and the welcome. I assumed that the CR is 10.5 to 1 since the heads are stock inside and that is the published CR for a 410. Pulling a head is not a bad idea. I won't order any parts until we have done some measurements, so one more measurement is not a bad idea. I am going hydraulic roller, no point in going to the trouble and skimping a few hundred bucks on the cam.

I plan to measure the spring pockets to make sure we can take the beehives that Lunati recommends, but still not settled on a Lunati (need the numbers no matter what cam we choose).

I recall it was a 390 GT intake, but the truck is parked in a friend's garage, and I don't recall the intake number, I'll get it soon. For short stints at 6,000 RPM I didn't think the rocker stands were needed.

I'm not an expert on cams or carbs, so I'm curious what a Holley would give me that an Edelbrock won't.

One point to make, being a 4WD it is heavy, so it will never be a true hot rod, and any speed over 70 mph it is an unguided missile and there isn't much you can do to make the handle much better. I just want better 30 to 70 performance. Also with the 33 inch tires, unless you launch it over 3,000 and stay stuck in it the wheels hop like mad, so you have to be a little cautious on the launch unless you are planning to really break the tires loose.

[fastback 427]

Wondering if you had a budget in mind for your truck? Maybe an intake change would be in order for performance over 4500 rpm. End stands are cheap insurance against failure. Also a holley will always make more power than an edelbrock. If you go to the member project section, look at turbohunters post titled intro and current project. Very cool truck, well thought out, with gobs of power. Lots of pics and some cool video as well. Sounds like that's kinda what your after.

[Yellow Truck]

Jay, I forgot to mention it has non-adjustable rockers. Fastback 427, this year I was just going to do the cam and supporting parts. I may think carb too, as that is not a big deal, but I was not thinking about the intake. My next major spend will probably to swap out the NP435 for a T19 with a 4:1 first gear and full syncro, but that requires an new transfer case and adapter, and buying it as a package will run over $3,200, plus shipping and we are getting hammered on the US/Canadian exchange rate right now, so I was going to stop at around $1,000 to $1,400 on parts.

[Yellow Truck]

That is an excellent thread. I picked up some good information, particularly the fix for the wheel hop issue. I had asked for suggestions from the members at Ford-Trucks and got nothing. I also asked some local performance guys. $99 is a steal to make that go away. I also like the idea of an NP205 and overdrive on the NP435.

But I'll start on the cam. I'll post more when I have the engine apart. It will take a few weeks because it is winter here and I need to clear out some room in the garage before I bring the truck over. Also had to tell my long suffering wife that I'm kicking her car out. She took it well.

[cjshaker]

My next major spend will probably to swap out the NP435 for a T19 with a 4:1 first gear and full syncro, but that requires an new transfer case and adapter, .....

Just curious, but is the transfer case married to the tranny on a F150? My F250 has a divorced transfer case and would only require a reworked short shaft to mate to a T19.

[rockittsled]

Welcome over here, glad you could make it here 

[ScotiaFE]

A little late, but Welcome and another northerner.
I going revisit the head.
Your C8 heads are low performance smog heads from a long time ago.
To take advantage of the smallish hyd roller you will need springs and hold down gear.
Possibly some valve work and definitely some porting.
I know you said they were ported and intake matched, but to the 390 GT intake which is the smallest
intake they ever put on an FE in a car. It's an S. It runs out of gas at 4500 rpm. All pun intended.
Edelbrock sells a cylinder head with Hyd roller capable springs, yes there jobber but for this small roller
they should do nicely.
You will be hard pressed to get those C8 heads ready for Hot Rod duty for the cost of the Edelbrocks.
Even considering the exchange rate.
Smmits ad.
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/edl-60065

Edit: Spring numbers. Pretty Sure. Part# 5845 Seat 150lbs Open @ .580" 420lbs

You need a much better intake than the 390 GT. And I love 390 GT's. lol

[jayb]

+1 on Howie's intake manifold comments.  If your manifold has the "S" cast into it, it is a primary drag on your power.  Even before the heads, I'd replace that intake with a better one, probably the Edelbrock Performer RPM.

[Yellow Truck]

I don't know about the F150s, but the F100s used a married set up. As to the comments on the intake I will get the numbers. Thinking about heads.

[turbohunter]

Hi Yellow Truck
Welcome to the forum.
The level of expertise here is very deep and the atmosphere is respectful. You'll dig it.
Couple of comments and questions.
First, I know you said "hot rod" but how about a few more specific thoughts on what you want the truck to be. This will help with choices for the drive train as well as engine.
Is it long or short bed?
I'm a Holley man from the bottom up because of adjustability and ease of maintenance. Just a well thought out carb.
Your gear choices are varied when you have a direction to go. For instance, I have a dual sticked NP 205 so far, so I have a low and hi rear drive range for my NP 435. Soon I'll add a Gear Vendors overdrive and double my gear choices again. My truck is a trail truck that has to drive long distances for hunting trips and work trips.
Try to get a truck personality in your head then go baby.
Looking forward to your pics and build.
Good luck
Marc

[machoneman]

I'm with Jay on a teardown and a check of the real c/r.  Long ago, I ran into one situation where the owner swore that a used car he bought had X c/r and the engine was 'stock' . After a cam swap, the engine never performed as expected and the swore it was the cam or something else. After a top end teardown, the original owner apparently had swapped the near 11:1 OEM pistons (it was a '68 Z-28 engine) to, no kidding, approximately 8.5:1 pistons to avoid premium gas!

Especially with older engines, who knows how many rebuilds it may have had over the years.   

[Yellow Truck]

I thought I'd show what I started with, and what it looks like now. Hot rod is not the right term, Marc. It is not exactly a show truck as I will carry stuff in it, but as you can see, it is not a working truck anymore. I liked the video you posted, that is more or less what I'm looking for. Mine needs to run as good as she looks.

It can be a edgy, a little rough at idle, but that is not the goal. I want to be able to step in it and have pull really hard up near to 6,000. Drive train will wait for another day. I am going to order the kit to stop the wheel hop. If I can get to the numbers you showed I'd be happy, I'd also be happy with the way it seemed to pull. I would be willing to give up some drivability as we don't have much of a traffic problem here in Calgary.