Author Topic: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.  (Read 23852 times)

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Barry_R

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2015, 04:35:27 PM »
Hi Josh...

I can pretty much "promise around 20HP by moving up to the 4500 throttle body - - I've had to go the opposite way on a rules driven EMC deal and verified it a couple times.  I also modified a Ron's "Flying Toilet" single barrel throttle body to meet the 4150 rule the following year and picked the power right back up.

Your injectors will not be a limit - they are rated at 80% duty cycle and you just want to watch the duty cycle on the data log to see if you're getting close to 100%.  The heads are the biggest opportunity after the throttle body without impacting the driveability.  I did not flow them since you provided them - but I have to imagine that they have more potential than we are at right now with a bit of work.

First effort then is to try the higher flowing throttle body & see how the car runs.  My dyno is historically something of a polygraph and you could pick up "Hollywood Horsepower" at some other places....but the engine ran well and should perform well too.

Faron

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2015, 07:44:14 PM »
Cam Is Too Small for HP Expected , Still Great Motor , you cant Hook 500 HP on any street tire , as posted above , Don't get hung up on Numbers , My 475-575 HP Combo is Fun , I love It more is a bragging right that is worthless in practicality IMHO

Barry_R

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2015, 09:15:58 PM »
Not really comparable...for other reasons
But my most recent EMC engine made middle 600s at 6500 with 433 cubes with a 236@.050 cam....
Back in the day we'd have called that an RV grind as far as duration goes
Same engine with a 242@.050 cam went over 700..

There's always more to it than meets the eye
And some old ideas tend to die hard..

blykins

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2015, 07:08:20 AM »
Well, back in the day, we didn't have 370 cfm heads.  A well performing head works without a monster cam. 
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hrtatk1

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2015, 09:23:53 AM »
Hello Barry,
Should know shortly how the 4500 performs. 
With all of your experience, what do you think the best header design to optimize the performance would be.  If I am going to build them, I only want to do it once.  without the shock towers, I can hopefully follow the port roof straight for a fair distance before turning down.  I had one header shop tell me 2-1/8 x 34 to 36" with not more than 2" straight pipe off of head with 3.5"merge collector. I might be wrong, but I would think you would loose to much velocity with that size tube.
Thanks, Josh

Barry_R

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2015, 06:51:11 PM »
I think I would go no more than a 2" tube coming off the head myself...

hrtatk1

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2015, 08:49:22 PM »
Hello Barry,
Thanks for the response.
Do you recommend a certain length primary tube? what type of collector and diameter? How long should you keep the header tube straight off the head before you turn down?

Hello Faron,
I know your are correct. I will have more than enough power as proven by Barry on the Dyno.  I just want to optimize the configuration before the final install. 
I hope with aluminum motor, triangulated 4 link, 285/40/18's and intelligent traction control, I will be able to put most of the power to the ground in a controlled fashion.  I figure if the GT500 hooks pretty well on these tires considering the weight, the Fairlane will have a decent chance as well.  Only time will tell.

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.  I really appreciate it.

My427stang

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2015, 10:27:06 PM »
I plugged your data into Pipemax, checks with Barry's recommendations

Primary pipe size (numbers rounded)
1.75 - 1.875 for low end torque
1.875 - 1.95 for mid and upper end

Primary pipe length (Actual numbers)
34.4 - 37.2 inches, with 34.4 considered optimum.

Collector diameter and length
3.25 - 3.50 diameter, 9.7 or 19.3 inches long (either works for the harmonic) but sort of a moot point with an exhaust behind it, but shows you big diameter exhaust is good :)

It's just a program, but it's generally accepted as a cool and useful program :) 

Seeing you are working this one pretty carefully, I'd try to hit the primary length close and likely use a 1 7/8 or 2 inch primary, whichever was easiest to source and/or fit the flanges. 

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

hrtatk1

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2015, 08:31:21 AM »
Hello My427stang,
Thanks for taking the time to generate those numbers.
I really appreciate it.
Your numbers sound more like I expected.
Based on your experience is there a point I can drop down to 3" or smaller exhaust without a penalty on performance or would a x-pipe at the end of the 9.7 or 19.3 long collector be helpful or is it best to keep 3.25" or 3.5" exhaust all the way out?
Thanks, josh

My427stang

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2015, 04:36:23 PM »
Interesting that you bring that up, because my tune has changed over time

Guys used to say that the gas cooled further down the pipe, so you could go smaller.  I never bought that, and still don't

However, I have seen quite a few dyno tests that prove you CAN go smaller further back and have been chasing data on why that is true.  The best explanation I have found so far is that at some point, the exhaust pulse rise and fall is dissipated so much, that there is no longer a need for the large pipe, just a pipe large enough to handle overall steady flow.

I'd say a 3 inch mandrel bent exhaust with an H pipe would be good all the way back on your motor, with the reduction from collector size as far back as it can be, and as gradual as it can be for the room you have.  Some of the circle track companies have gradual reducers if you have room to run them back 18 inches or so after the collector

In the end, my hunch is we are talking single digit differences, so likely just a 3 inch exhaust without much concern for anything else will be real good, but if you wanted to try to sneak every bit out of it, delay reduction as far back as you can

FWIW, I run almost the same engine with 1 3/4 inch headers and 3 inch exhaust and although I think there is a little more power to be had, it fits so nice I can't get myself to change it and it sure runs strong.
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

hrtatk1

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2015, 10:15:15 AM »
Ross,
Thanks for the suggestions.
Did you run your exhaust out the back?
I will see what I can fit with the Heidts suspension. The IFS and triangulated 4 link reduce clearance especially above my 9".
Thanks, Josh

jayb

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2015, 10:42:15 AM »
My latest foray into header design isn't perfectly relevant here, but I thought I would share it just to shed a little more light on this subject.  On my big SOHC engine (950+ HP), my original header design was a stepped primary, 2-1/8 to 2-1/4 to 2-3/8, into a merge collector with a 3.25" choke and a 4" outlet diameter.  This was a little smaller than Pipemax's recommended size; they recommended a 2.3" first primary tube, going all the way up to 2.5" for the third stage, and a 4.5" collector diameter.  Since I built those headers, I've had some input from two Engine Masters builders who I respect, Mark Dahlquist at Throttles Performance, and Blair Patrick.  They both say that the primaries are too big, even at 2-1/8", going in the opposite direction of the Pipemax recommendations.  They are saying I should go to a 2" first primary size, and size all the pipes down from there.  I'm in the process of starting up my new headers, to try out their suggestion.  In addition, I'm going to be using two different merge collectors, one with a 3" choke (my choice) and one with a smaller choke (Blair's choice; Blair is getting me the collectors).  When I'm done with this, and the engine is back together, I will have the original set of headers, plus the new set with two different merge collectors, to try out on the dyno.  Should be a very interesting test.  I wonder if Barry has any thoughts on this...
Jay Brown
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- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Joe-JDC

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2015, 11:30:30 AM »
 I have flowed many of the designs on my flow bench with a head mounted backwards so the headers can be mounted and flowed through the exhaust port into the header.  The headers get so hot on the flow bench that you can't touch them for several minutes after flowing them.  If the exhuast port is a good flowing port without a tube, any size header will help pick up the flow unless it has a sharp bend immediately after the port opening.  Every angle that is welded into the tube will cut flow some, and turns/bends that are smooth do not.  You can build engines to make close to 800hp with 1 3/4 header primaries if the collector is merged correctly.  Stepped headers should have the primary tube volumn for first step of at least the cubic inch of that cylinder before the next step up in tube size, and so should the second step, etc.  A street car will always run better on the street with a smaller header primary tube size than most folks think is appropriate. 

Factory exhausts had the exhaust pipes after the mufflers smaller for a reason.  It has been a proven fact that the exhaust cools enough back to the mufflers under normal driving conditions to allow the use of a smaller exhaust after the muffler and keep velocity up in the pipes on the street.  Also, think of the jet engines with the afterburner, for them to speed up the exhuast and make more power, they squeeze the exhaust down considerable to aid in acceleration.  And as the power comes up, they open in stages to keep the velocity at its peak.  Automobiles don't have adjustable exhaust pipes, but squeezing the pipes down after the primaries with a merge collector does the same thing.  Smaller exhaust tubing after the muffler is a similiar affect.  Joe-JDC
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My427stang

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2015, 08:01:21 PM »
I have flowed many of the designs on my flow bench with a head mounted backwards so the headers can be mounted and flowed through the exhaust port into the header.  The headers get so hot on the flow bench that you can't touch them for several minutes after flowing them.  If the exhuast port is a good flowing port without a tube, any size header will help pick up the flow unless it has a sharp bend immediately after the port opening.  Every angle that is welded into the tube will cut flow some, and turns/bends that are smooth do not.  You can build engines to make close to 800hp with 1 3/4 header primaries if the collector is merged correctly.  Stepped headers should have the primary tube volumn for first step of at least the cubic inch of that cylinder before the next step up in tube size, and so should the second step, etc.  A street car will always run better on the street with a smaller header primary tube size than most folks think is appropriate. 

Factory exhausts had the exhaust pipes after the mufflers smaller for a reason.  It has been a proven fact that the exhaust cools enough back to the mufflers under normal driving conditions to allow the use of a smaller exhaust after the muffler and keep velocity up in the pipes on the street.  Also, think of the jet engines with the afterburner, for them to speed up the exhuast and make more power, they squeeze the exhaust down considerable to aid in acceleration.  And as the power comes up, they open in stages to keep the velocity at its peak.  Automobiles don't have adjustable exhaust pipes, but squeezing the pipes down after the primaries with a merge collector does the same thing.  Smaller exhaust tubing after the muffler is a similiar affect.  Joe-JDC

Joe, I agree you CAN use smaller pipes out back, but I have not found where cooling was a "proven fact" and certainly haven't seen any proof that large tailpipes hurt other than noise control.  Primaries being too big, yes, collectors being too short or too big with open exhaust, yes, but not diameter further back.

Matter of fact, I would say the cooling theory is only theory based on interpretation of what we both agree we see with smaller pipes.  My personal opinion is that it isn't based on cooling, if it was, eventually you could have an exhaust long enough, maybe an ice cooled 5/8 heater hose, but no matter how cool it was, I don't see that 5/8 tube flowing enough.

That being said, I spent a ton of time researching it, with no solid answer....but we agree that you CAN go smaller.  Knowing there is a relatively violent exhaust pressure spike and then negative spike that decays over distance, my interpretation is that is why the tailpipes can be smaller because that spike and recovery minimizes. After that it is just an area calculation, however even then the exhaust experts don't agree completely on anything and I haven't found a definitive answer.

I'll also go one step farther and agree with the exact words you used..."in normal driving"   I can probably buy into the fact at light throttle there isn't much heat back there, but when your foot is in it for a continuous period, racing or pulling a hill, I think things stay pretty hot all the way to the tail pipe exit.

However, I agree on what you said about sizing and hp requirements and the fact that many people use too big of a primary pipe. 

hrtatk1 - I run my pipes all the way back and turn down in basically stock location at the back valance
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 08:46:28 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Barry_R

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Re: Optimal Header design for 484 FE without shock towers.
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2015, 09:01:59 PM »
My thoughts on headers is approaching the ones I have on cams.  The more experience I get the more likely I am to just try stuff & see what happens.  So far I can say that something of at least a short straight run out of the port definitely helps - and is nigh unto impossible in a shock tower car.

My stuff has proven to be MUCH more sensitive to collector length and design than it is to primary features - as long you are in the general rational realm of sizing.  I am also pretty well convinced that some characteristics that show up good on the dyno are not going to be optimal in a car.  The difference is one of running against a load that controls acceleration rate (dyno) compared to running against a variable load while trying to maximize acceleration (car).  Blair has more experience than I do in race car optimization and I would tend to follow his lead there - I've seen some stunningly small choke diameters in use.