Poll

Which of the following intake manifold tops should I build for the intake adapter?

Single Plane Dominator Flanged Spider Intake
8 (22.2%)
2X4 Single Plane Intake Similar to a Tunnel Wedge
12 (33.3%)
2X4 Tunnel Ram, in Sheet Metal Intake Style
16 (44.4%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Author Topic: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter  (Read 20029 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7427
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2014, 10:07:00 AM »
By your own book, the near impossible to find Dove cast tunnel ram was unmatched in power. If you are going through the hoops casting a top how much more elaborate is it to cast a copy of the Dove?.....

The Dove tunnel ram is an older design, like the Weiand.  The runners are curved, not straight, to allow for the flat bottom plenum.  My guess is, based on current race technology, that a manifold with straight runners and  the V-shaped plenum would make more power, so I'd rather go with something like that.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7427
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2014, 10:13:50 AM »
Id love a sheet metal tunnel ram. would you build injector tube bung drill outs in those??the removeable top would be cool for carbs or just a lid for those wanting to use fuel injection. I know i built my fuel injection tunnel ram but I would like a sheet metal one instead of the Weiand one :)

Just to be clear, Rick, I'm not talking about building a sheet metal intake.  I'm talking about a cast aluminum intake, designed in the sheet metal intake style, with straight runners with a 2 or 3 degree taper towards a V-shaped plenum, like a sheet metal intake.  I would definitely put locations for EFI injectors on the runners.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7427
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2014, 10:16:31 AM »
I say the Tunnel Ram.  Like you said Jay, that is the configuration that is not currently being produced for the FE.  1x4 single plane Dominatora are being produced. Several Tunnel Wedges are being produced.  The tunnel ram stands out in that respect.

I think it's really cool that you're making this stuff, Jay!   

JMO,

paulie

Thanks Paulie.  Barry and I were talking at the PRI show, about dragging the FE into the 21st century, and I definitely want to be part of that...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Dumpling

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
    • View Profile
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2014, 10:29:29 AM »

Actually, Borla has got that covered.  They are working on adapting the IR runners from their 351W intake to my adapter.  I delivered a copy of my intake adapter to them a few months ago.  At the PRI show I got a chance to look over their 351W crossram and it looks like it would work fine on an FE, at least up to 600 HP or so.  The IR crossram has eight individual castings for the runners; each one has its own throttle body and velocity stack.  They are bolted to a common 351W base.  Borla is planning to use the same runners, modified slightly so that they will bolt to my adapter.

There's some CAD drawings of what they are planning on page 32 of the FE intake adapter thread in the Member Projects section; link below:

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=683.msg15131#msg15131

I was thinking of just the runners component with mounts for webers.  That way you're only paying for the unique part and not for easily-sourced TB parts, plus the Borla TBs look to be sized for sub-400 cubic inch engines, whereas 58mm Weber-style TBs are available now.

All that said, what's Borla' s projected pricing?  $4,000?

[edit]  did a google search and found Borla' s page on their crossram:
https://www.borlainduction.com/200064-v8-kit-ford-351w-cross-ram-60mm-air-horn.html
$6,500 without about $1,000 in nice-to-have options.
Selling like hotcakes I bet.

As far as a tunnel ram goes, it might be nice to be able to mount the injector (or nozzles) in the valley area, under the plenum.  Don't know if there's room for that under a V-plenum or not.

Maybe make the plenum' s runner sides extra thick to use as Weber mounting flanges after cutting the top, front, and back of it off by crazy people.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 11:03:07 AM by Dumpling »

NewFalconOwner

  • Guest
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2014, 11:13:20 AM »
Just to be clear, Rick, I'm not talking about building a sheet metal intake.  I'm talking about a cast aluminum intake, designed in the sheet metal intake style, with straight runners with a 2 or 3 degree taper towards a V-shaped plenum, like a sheet metal intake.  I would definitely put locations for EFI injectors on the runners.

still would be nicer then a modified 351C tunnel ram.. I should of waited lol


machoneman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3855
    • View Profile
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2014, 11:25:20 AM »
The I.R. crossram is mighty cool yet methinks it would have the same limited sales volume as either of the two tunnel ram intakes. As noted above, the tunnel rams are a good idea yet I do wonder how many you could move. The high end custom t-rams (think Hogan, etc.) are mighty fine pieces for the dedicated FE racers. Unless you could compete at a much lower price point for an equally strong intake, I don't see any advantage. On a cast t-ram, if the top were a flat aluminum or steel plate that you'd easily machine per order (2 sideways Holleys, 2 sideways Dominators, 2 in-line flat bowled Holleys, one Holley of either size, etc.) it would allow more user flexibility and would likely be cheaper that a cast top.

Link provided merely as an example of the top and low price;

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-62420040?seid=srese1&gclid=CJGc3NiE1cICFe47Mgod5wsAsg

Jay, keep this up FE development and you will get me to whip out my Mach 1's 351W and get an FE!   
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 11:29:08 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

XR7

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2014, 11:46:24 AM »
I would say the "current technology" tunnel ram, would make the most sense. For the same reason Jay & Paulie mentioned, that nothing "current" exists... and for that matter, nothing ever has for the high riser. The DOVE and Wieand are old tech and were designed 30+years ago, runner cross section and taper are wrong, plenum entries and the plenum itself same deal.

This sort of goes against my plan as I want a bad ass single plane Dominator to put on top of a high riser adapter that Jay is working on for me now  ;D I have been racing with a suingle Dominator on a Victor with BT MR heads for several years, and on Edelbrocks for near a decade before that. I have purchased several uppers to modify buy they are all in need of some serious work to get the runners in the correct location. I won't put a SBF intake on unless it is cut up and modified and that is a big expense for tig welding aluminum. The port offset at #1 and #8 are just too great for me. I have a line on an intake that I think might work out much better, as far as port location and line of sight, but it is a proto type at this point and not yet available. I don't have the adapter in hand yet either, which makes it tough to mock up together and see if it will work better  :o I am thinking it will still take modification as well as to the adapter, to make them (single Dominator and cast tunnel ram both to be available), to actually physically bolt on and line up (with porting and milling, hopefully no welding). Time will tell!

I think the best of both worlds would be to have a single Dominator and a tunnel ram, to change back and forth at will. That is the beauty of Jay's adapter. This would be a great experiment at the track on the same day, as the time required would be minimal if you had the fuel lines and linkage set-up to swap easily. The dyno is one thing, but the numbers on the boards at the end of the track tell it all. I know some combos will do just as well and even sometimes quicker with a big single 4 versus a tunnel ram and 2x4, although typically the 2x4 will have a higher MPH and certainly depending on "tons" of variables, be quicker as well. The dyno will almost always show more HP with the 2x4 but 60 ft and front half slower.

Another thing worth mentioning is that I feel the adapter makes the most sense with high riser heads (versus MR as there is a ton of choices out there already), since there are only a few intakes available and nothing really good. The DOVE stuff is not the best design and not available most of the time, and for BT heads, the OEM stuff won't work and it is from the 60's for tech as well. The reason the MR adapters sold so well is because they are cool  8) and because of the ease to change a dry upper intake, and the choices and cost effectiveness of all the 351C and other canted valve SBF intakes out there, the sky is the limit.
68 Cougar XR7 GT street legal, 9.47@144.53, 3603# at the line, 487 HR center oiler, single carb, Jerico 4 speed, 10.5 tires, stock(er) suspension, all steel full interior

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7427
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2014, 12:10:18 PM »

still would be nicer then a modified 351C tunnel ram.. I should of waited lol


Well, you might still be waiting in a year or more.  This stuff takes time, and you can use yours right away  ;)
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7427
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2014, 12:13:31 PM »

I was thinking of just the runners component with mounts for webers.  That way you're only paying for the unique part and not for easily-sourced TB parts, plus the Borla TBs look to be sized for sub-400 cubic inch engines, whereas 58mm Weber-style TBs are available now.

All that said, what's Borla' s projected pricing?  $4,000?

[edit]  did a google search and found Borla' s page on their crossram:
https://www.borlainduction.com/200064-v8-kit-ford-351w-cross-ram-60mm-air-horn.html
$6,500 without about $1,000 in nice-to-have options.
Selling like hotcakes I bet.

As far as a tunnel ram goes, it might be nice to be able to mount the injector (or nozzles) in the valley area, under the plenum.  Don't know if there's room for that under a V-plenum or not.

Maybe make the plenum' s runner sides extra thick to use as Weber mounting flanges after cutting the top, front, and back of it off by crazy people.

I didn't know the Borla stuff was that expensive.  Seems like a lot, despite the fact that it is a cool setup.

Do you have a link for a 58mm throttle body?  I'd be interested in looking at that...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   


jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7427
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2014, 01:35:55 PM »
At the PRI show, as I was looking at the Borla setup, I thought that if only I could find a 58mm or 60mm single butterfly throttle body, I could get larger runners than the Borla runners cast up, bolt on the throttle body, and make my own IR setup.  However, it appears that the throttle bodies are really expensive, no matter who is selling them...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Dumpling

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
    • View Profile
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2014, 01:48:38 PM »
The Jenvey ones are for a pair, DCOE substitutes, 4 needed, if you don't already have a set...

What's galling is Moon sells a 50mm-ready runner base for $900 for a sbf...so close...
http://www.mooneyesusa.com/product-p/mwm4302sd.htm

Cheap FORD 65mm throttle bodies, $65 each, here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-MUSTANG-4-6-SOHC-1996-04-HIGHLY-PORTED-POLISHED-65MM-THROTTLE-BODY-/161528955654?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item259be04306&vxp=mtr

With the runner base, something like this might follow:
http://www.enginelabs.com/news/video-vararam-vr-x-ls3-manifold-on-the-dyno/
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 04:59:05 PM by Dumpling »

fe66comet

  • Guest
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2014, 02:46:35 PM »
It was not a suggested option but a ram style EFI intake would be nice. Maybe set up for a huge custom Ford style throttle body up to 140mm or so. A true dedicated high flow short runner intake for 600 plus HP would be nice for the big cube engines.

Dumpling

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
    • View Profile
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2014, 03:27:14 PM »
It was not a suggested option but a ram style EFI intake would be nice. Maybe set up for a huge custom Ford style throttle body up to 140mm or so. A true dedicated high flow short runner intake for 600 plus HP would be nice for the big cube engines.

Wouldn't that be a TB flange welded onto the front plate of a tunnel ram plenum with a flat solid plate replacing the carb(s)-mounting plate on top?  Something like what was fabbed up and pictured above?

fe66comet

  • Guest
Re: Dedicated Upper Manifold for the Intake Adapter
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2014, 09:56:11 PM »
More like a 502 Ram Jet intake but like Jay said with properly spaced runners, or a side draft Box R style would work too. I am planning on using the Trick Flow Box R but flow will definetly be limited due to the narrow port spacing and I have to do extensive machine work to make the ports big enough. Really if a proper base plate were available then a lot of messing around could be avoided. The wiggle in the front and rear ports would definetly become a factor with a big port head like a Blue Thunder leaving you to custom build something from scratch to be truely effective.