Good News / Bad News: New Drag Week and Engine Masters Rules

[thatdarncat]

It's not the punching out to 505 cubic inches that is the issue, that's not hard with an aftermarket block. On any naturally aspirated max effort engine it's all about the cylinder heads and intake manifold, especially when the cubic inches are limited. There are heads out there that were designed from a clean sheet of paper for things like NHRA pro stock, Top Sportsman, Top Dragster and many other competition uses that far outflow what we can get from a FE head. These engines also have wider bore spacing allowing bigger valves and optimized  valve placement, along with better cam placement and larger cam journals allowing bigger lobes. And since they are no longer the state of the art in Pro Stock they are readily available, even used, for anyone who wants to try this. 

[sumfoo1]

Well what i was getting at is our rod ratios aren't really ideal @ 505  and we are typically back to an under square engine so our bores aren't really big enough to run huge valves and ports and keep them flowing well.

Truth is... i feel like once you start fitting heavily re-designed heads that require their own custom intake, cam,. rockers etc. on a motor you're not really building a BBC or a BBF motor anymore.

[bluef100fe]

I read they changed the ET cap to 10.00 from 10.80 in the daily driver or street eliminator also... Bummer about the other changes as well...

What's the deck height on the Pontiac? Why are they considered a small block and our FEs aren't? I know bore spacing is pretty much the same....

[XR7]

Pontiac deck height is 10.220 compared to our 10.170. Their bore space is 4.625 and the FE is 4.630. They are able to use 4.500 stroke as well... so with an aftermarket Pontiac block bored to 4.375 (doable) and 4.500 stroke the cubic inch comes out to 541. Not sure any other "small block"  can say that...  Also there are canted valve heads for the Pontiac that flow 460/295.

I guess we can get billet canted valve heads for the FE also, they flow 470/300 but cost a mere 13K bare...

One of Barry's buddies is building a small block Chevy, on a 4.500 bore space block with heads that flow 498/300 and is 470 inches. They are shooting for 1200HP!

[bluef100fe]

Well then if the Pontiac is allowed why wouldn't the Fe be allowed.... Same with the drag week rules Fe can't run in the small block class... Doesn't make any sense as long as your under the displacement limit....

[jayb]

I agree with you Cody, and I sent Freiburger an email to that effect a few days ago.  I don't know if it will do any good, though...

[Barry_R]

The way stuff goes they will likely just decide to outlaw the Pontiac....

[Barry_R]

Half tempted to do an engine dyno contest at PRI next year.
Find a portable dyno supplier, stick two of them in the parking lot/stadium/nearby structure/business on gasoline alley
Invite 20 former EMC guys to run off during the 3 days of the trade show
Display the action live on a big screen inside the show hall
Simple rules - max cid, cast heads & intake, 11.5:1, spec fuel, single 4 bbl, 7000 RPM
Peak HP wins - no finals - take your best three shots & that's what you get.

[mlcraven]

I really doubt Pontiac will be dropped from EMC, HRM would suffer severe backlash from the numerous Poncho aficianados across the land with Indian-powered GTOs, Firebirds, Catalinas, etc.  FE on the other hand, it's just a small slice of the larger Ford family, so not including the FE doesn't ruffle a lot of feathers in the larger FOMOCO fan base.  And as you and and others have inferred, there are already getting to be so many categories of engines that it's going to present the organizers with some scheduling and logistical challenges.

That said, it would certainly make for much more diverse and entertaining EMC event if the cammers were included in the hemi category and wedge FEs in small block.  Freiburger's known to listen to reason, so fingers crossed on this one.

[mlcraven]

Day four is really out there from a reader relevance view. Pre-54 V8s are nailhead Buick, Y block Ford, flathead, Caddy pieces that are largely relegated to the land speed and street rod community. Cool? You bet. Chosen in any way for their performance potential? Never - except for a very few cryptic land speed efforts. Readers may find an occasional article about these to be interesting, but any competitive rewards are so far out of scope as to be meaningless outside of the tightly confined Bonneville categories where creativity is held in highest regard. And very, very few of these actually get built as a percentage of the performance marketplace. A neat thing to do, but not an Engine Masters sort of deal as far as I can tell - more of a stand alone article for the vintage enthusiast. Hot Rod Deluxe? Another 20% pulled out of our calendar with minimal or no gain...

The folks at Hot Rod are unquestionably the best in the business.
As such I hold them to a higher standard.
And I expect a better effort.
Time for a "reboot".

Barry: DF and acolytes are infatuated with LSR.  And what's not to like, really? Plus LSR takes HRM right back to its original roots and it's a fact the entire car hobby is awash in a nostalgia craze that shows no sign of ending.  Hence the pre-54 deal is no surprise.

 You're right though, they do need to be held to the highest possible standard. And in their favour, the HRM team seem to be open to solid arguments. 

[mlcraven]

David commented that he wanted me in Drag Week, and perhaps its time to make a change. I do want to run Drag Week. I think its incredibly cool and longingly look at the coverage every year since it began. But it also requires a far higher degree of commitment in terms of both finances and time, while not delivering the engine specific focus that makes the Engine Masters so viable for my business. The higher cost and lower reward makes a move to Drag Week an emotion driven personal effort rather than a good business move. With a business to run, a threesome of young girls at home, and a working spouse this is a decision I would have to consider very, very carefully.

I truly believe that the Engine Masters Challenge needs revision and new blood to give it long term viability.

I would suggest Drag Week does as well.  Understand that it's a wonderful experience for the participants but the trend -- in respect of what motivates the organizers/hosts -- seems to be inexorably shifting away from the low-budget daily driver participant.

[TomP]

Even the DragWeek classes are not too FE-friendly. You give up a lot of cubic inches to the Chevy and 460 guys in the big block classes and are not allowed in smallblock class even if well under the 430" limit.
 But not too many actually take full advantage of the rules.

[machoneman]

Half tempted to do an engine dyno contest at PRI next year.
Find a portable dyno supplier, stick two of them in the parking lot/stadium/nearby structure/business on gasoline alley
Invite 20 former EMC guys to run off during the 3 days of the trade show
Display the action live on a big screen inside the show hall
Simple rules - max cid, cast heads & intake, 11.5:1, spec fuel, single 4 bbl, 7000 RPM
Peak HP wins - no finals - take your best three shots & that's what you get.

Barry has a great idea here. In my opinion, HR has little interest in highlighting the expertise of the builders at least when compared to pleasing the speed part advertisers who pay the freight. In fact, they would run the contest with the builder's names held in the blind....as long as readers eventually knew what builder did which engine. 

In a new contest, the builder's skills would be at the forefront...not so much the parts used. This answers a host of questions I've noted over time from almost all the competitors. The cost of the EM program and the 'gain' a builder gets must be weighed against getting better (or the best) exposure for the builder by other means.

Is Barry perhaps better off doing more advertising on websites or posting builds on YouTube for free than doing the EM stuff? By turning the tables on the current EM program, each builder gets far better press and potentially more customers than the way the competition is handled now.   

 

[babybolt]

I'm a big fan of the Engine Masters competition, but I think it could be improved.

First, all of Barry's comments are right on.  They could probably make it into a two week competition with all the new classes, particularly the vintage stuff.  I could see this splitting into two separate weeks at different times of the year, dyno facilities willing.  Just the vintage guys all showing up with their shiny new engines could fill up a week.  We'll see how many entrants apply.

One thing I've had a problem with is the scoring system.  This and that divided by whatever and you get a score.  You have to do it somehow.  But does this result in an engine that anyone would take of the dyno and stick in a car?  The formula rewards builders with big budgets and free dyno time to sit there, wear out engines for the last HP and you come out with weird combos.   Somehow this calculation should be improved, maybe a different one that reward more top end HP for engines intended for drag racing, and torque for street engines.

I would propose for the vintage class, and maybe some other classes also that a new metric is introduced.  The engine has to be streetable so let it sit there on the dyno for 5 minutes at 2,000 rpm under a specified road load and measure the fuel flow rate.  The resulting number would count into the formula for a winning engine.   

And I still can never find the magazines when they apparently are supposed to be on the newstand, are they available by subscription now?
 

[thatdarncat]

Although what we heard were the proposed rules, Hot Rod said they were going to do away with the convoluted "factored" scoring. I believe it was going to based on average numbers over the judged rpm range, not just the peak number. They also said they were figuring they could dyno about 8 engines a day so I assume that means they are limiting the entrants to just 8 per class. Hot Rod decides who gets to enter by how interested they are in the combo you describe in an essay you send them