440FE = 1hp per cube?

[plovett]

Thanks, Jay, I will get back to you for a chat.  I am visiting my son in FL, and it will be a while before I get everything finished.  It would be an interesting write for a book if things go as I suspect.  Joe

I'd buy that book, Joe. 

paulie

[country63sedan]

I'd also buy that book Joe. Later, Travis.

[Ford428CJ]

I would buy it as well 

[NIsaacs]

Cody, since you sled pull here is a video pulling the small sled in the 5500 stock gas class, note the rpm's ....this was with the stock D2 heads, rpm cam, rpm intake, 750 ED carb and oem dist. This was a test pull to "set" the sled.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNKqyXlq8IY   

 



Nick

[Lenz]

Nice, sounds strong.  Even though it was a test to set the sled it looks and sounds like you could have pulled it downtown if you wanted to

[fe66comet]

I have had many work/service trucks and vans with FE engines, they are very strong pullers when put under load. My work trucks were heavily loaded with parts, tools and cylinders and the engines always performed well under heavy loads. It was almost like a diesel engine in the way the engine performs better under load than empty LOL. My only complaint would be gas mileage but the injected 351 was actually worse mileage wise. 

[NIsaacs]

That is about what I am shooting for with my 445, 1.5 per cube sounds like a reasonable number.

I have been reading until I am cross eyed, getting info for my current 440, but mostly for my next engine build, for the Super Stock class, they have a 500 cid limit. I was leaning towards 482+ but maybe the 454 size I have access to, is enough. I will need a minimum of 600hp.

Two sets of very similar engine builds come to mind. They were built by 2 very experienced FE builders, so build quality/attention to detail is a given. This is all about hard parts. Yet, the 396 out powered the 446 by a large margin. The mild 396 produced 1.3 hp per cube, the hot one 1.44 hp per. The 446 mild one, was at 1.13 with the strip version at 1.23 hp per. Where the heck did the difference come from? Dyno's? From what I can see, the hard parts were almost identical.

The 446's were built for Car Craft and the 396's are on BBM's site. I am sure you guys are familiar with these articles. If I can get 1.44 hp per cube on a 454 with good modern top end goodies, that's 653 hp....woo hoo....!!

Thoughts??

Thanks, Nick   

[blykins]

Dynos can account for a lot of difference in results....

[WerbyFord]

I have read a lot about this, that it is "easy" to get this number. I have also read a lot, that it is "easy" to get 2hp per CFM of head intake flow. However they don't seem to both add up the same. Since my 428/440 FE is on the mild side or in the "easy" category, I should have 440 hp. Or using the 2 hp head flow numbers, my ED's advertised at 270....I have read that in real life this number might be closer to 250..... so using the term "easy" I should have 500hp.

So....using my seat of the pants meter and a chassis dyno for power numbers, I would guess my 440 is more in the 400hp range. I have posted a dyno sheet that I have of this engine, before the Edelbrock top end kit and was  when a stock '08 Toyota Tundra beat my numbers, Lol. Any thoughts?

Nick

Good replies already, I feel also that the "2 hp per intake CFM" is a very rough rule of thumb, meant to apply to GROSS HP, ie open exhaust on the dyno, no fan, 29.92 60F dry air, etc. In a typical street car NET hp is a lot lower than GROSS hp, and REAR WHEEL is a lot lower than both.

Example I pulled from Gonkulator files -
63 Galaxie 427/410hp, bone stock
412 GROSS hp
316 NET hp
283 REAR WHEEL hp

58 Merc 430/400hp, bone stock
370 GROSS hp
283 NET hp
212 REAR WHEEL hp
..... a long way from the 400hp rating! The big Lincoln LX trans ate a lot of power.

All this stuff has to "jive" with the trap speed the car actually put out so that's where things come together.

The new cars/trucks are made with special lightweight exotic materials (ie stuff you cant fix or weld like our old iron & low carbon steel).
This makes the new rigs much heavier (yup) than the old cars.
I've started naming the new trucks after Tanks, like the Sherman, Panther, Tiger.
An old longbed truck used to weigh 4000 lb give or take, today they are well over 5000lb.
That's more than an iron FE with a c6 & starter & generator attached!

Therefore, your old light truck might still outrun that fat new iron, the heavy new rigs all need more power just to get them moving.
My favorite is the new Dodge Challenger Hellcat, at 4500 curb, heavier than my big-block Galaxie WAGON.
How do they make em so heavy today?

[ScotiaFE]

"How do they make em so heavy today?"

Electric ass heaters with touch screen control. For a start.

[NIsaacs]

"How do they make em so heavy today?"

Electric ass heaters with touch screen control. For a start.

That and the big power, requires heavy duty power trains.

Werby, that's interesting on the hp comparison, with about a 35% (average) loss on the chassis dyno, that brings my old Ford up to about 330 hp, sounds about right.

Nick

[NIsaacs]

Here is a video of my truck with the exact same power as the dyno sheet, note how slow it was v/s todays power. The Edelbrock top end kit was a huge improvement, plus the addition of the low first gear. The axle ratio and tire size was the same in both videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUUdnDaCJ9o

Nick

[NIsaacs]

Update: Here is a new dyno sheet from yesterday. With the Edelbrock complete top end kit I gained 51 hp and 32 trq, seems like a lot of time and money for the gain but it pulls the sled way better





Nick







 

[NIsaacs]

Copy of the old dyno sheet.




Nick

[Barry_R]

As somebody mentioned. I have run the Edelbrock "package" on the dyno and it performed almost exactly as advertised.  With chassis numbers often being 20% or more lower and notoriously inaccurate I would say you are right on the proverbial "mark".

As for torque per cubic inch on an FE for street use - once you get past 1.1-1.2 lbs per cube you are really doing very well on a traditional street build.  Going beyond 1.3 per cube is a very solid combination.  Hitting 1.4-1.5 pounds on torque  per cube is reaching Engine Masters Challenge territory and does not happen with a "bolt together" package.