Author Topic: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24  (Read 26813 times)

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jayb

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The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« on: August 24, 2014, 09:33:40 PM »
FINALLY made it to the track this week.  Monday night through Friday night I went through a fairly major punch list to get the car ready for the track, as follows:

- Revamp throttle linkage so it fits under the hood
- Install the hood and adjust
- Measure locations of four link holes
- Plot 4 link possibilities in CAD program, calculate possible instant centers
- Adjust for "best guess" four link bar locations
- Install collector tethers (new NHRA rule)
- Install up to date seat belts/harness
- Install hood hold down latch
- Fabricate installation straps for flywheel cover, install cover
- Install dash pad, connect oil pressure warning light and shift light
- Tie up wiring on wiring panel, reinstall panel under the dash
- Wrap the wiring under the hood with protective sheathing
- Install roll cage side bars
- Install parachute and connect parachute cable
- Wash car, vacuum interior

As I'm sure you can see I had a busy week, burning lots of midnight oil to get all this done.  I finally got done on Friday night but was too tired out to load the car on the trailer, so I left that for Saturday morning before I headed for the track.

One of the interesting parts of the week was  trying to figure out the best location for the four link bars.  There's lots of online information on this subject, and so I spent some time in the evenings doing a little research after I had mapped out the hole locations and drawn up a picture of the car in my CAD program.  According to the online web sites on this topic, one thing you need to know is where your "anti-squat", or "normal" line is.  This is a line connecting the rear tire contact patch to the intersection of a horizontal line running forward from the car's CG to a vertical line running straight up from the center of the front wheel.  The instant center is then calculated by extending lines forward from the four link bars until they intersect.  The position of the instant center relative to the anti-squat line will tell you something about how the car will behave on launch.

Having the instant center directly on the anti-squat line, and lined up with the CG, is supposed to give you the most efficient launch.  Using the CAD program I was able to find an upper and lower bar position that was very close to this point.  Here's a picture from my CAD program showing these positions:



In this drawing the instant center is about 4.5" behind the CG, and is right on the anti-squat line (referred to as 100% anti-squat).  Another alternative was to have the instant center below the anti-squat line; the web sites said that this less than 100% anti-squat, and would cause the rear of the car to squat when it leaves.  This results in a softer "hit" on the tires.  Stick cars that drop the clutch or automatic cars that use a trans-brake are supposed to hit the tires pretty hard to begin with, and so they may need less than 100% anti-squat to maintain traction.  The drawing below shows one of the positions I mapped that had much less than 100% anti-squat:



Notice also that the drawing above has the instant center far forward of the CG.  This will tend to raise the front end on launch.  An instant center behind the CG will tend to raise the rear end of the car on launch.

You can also position the instant center above the anti-squat line, for more than 100% anti-squat.  This is supposed to hit the tires harder and result in better traction, but at the cost of wasting energy by raising the rear of the car on launch.  In the drawing below the instant center is positioned for much more than 100% anti-squat, and also it is behind the CG, causing the rear of the car to rise on launch:



I have a transbrake on my car but was planning to footbrake it on the launch at the track; just holding the RPM to 3000 or so on the line, and then releasing the brake and mashing the accelerator on the last yellow.  As a result, based on what I'd been reading, I figured if anything I might need more than 100% anti-squat, and I also wanted to be sure to sneak up on any instant center location forward of the CG, in order to avoid an unexpected wheelie.  So, I set up the car to be neutral as shown in the first drawing above.

Saturday morning my friend Kevin came over early and helped me get the car loaded on the trailer and truck all loaded up.  We hit the road for the track around 7:30.  After a few miles I stopped in a Menards parking lot to check the trailer and the car tie downs; here's a picture:



And yes, that is my brand new F-150  ;D ;D  It has the Ecoboost V6, a built in electric brake controller, and other options like trailer sway control.  It pulled the trailer beautifully on the 120 mile trip to the track, and got about 13 MPG while doing it, which was much better than my 2005 F-150 with the 5.4L ever got.  I am rather amazed at the power and driveability they got out of that little 3.6 liter V-6.  The two turbos certainly help...

At the track we were met by my friends Kurt and Steve P., who had come to help out.  The weather report said that there was a chance of thunderstorms and it sure looked like it, with the weather being overcast and extremely humid, but we must have lucked out because it turned out to be dry all day.  After getting the car unloaded and then through tech, I started making some passes right away.  I had no idea what to expect on my first pass, so I just did a pretty good burnout and let 'er rip on the last yellow.  The front of the car came up but the wheels spun violently.  I made a complete pass but was pretty much all over the track doing it.  The time was not too impressive, much slower than I had been hoping for.  Track prep was obviously a problem, but so was the car's setup.

After coming back to the pits I talked with the other guys about how the car was working.  It was leaving with no rear end movement, indicating that the instant center was indeed on or very close to the anti-squat line.  The guys also told me that the track was wet forward of the water box, and that I needed to release the line lock and come out of the box a good ten feet with the tires spinning to get them dried off.  After kicking it around a little I decided to change the instant center right away, moving the bars so that I had more than 100% anti-squat.  I had brought all my CAD charts with me so I knew where all the different positions of the bars would put the IC, and I picked the one below, to keep the IC close to the CG but just give me a harder hit to the tires:



After making the adjustments I went back out for the next pass.  This one was positively embarrassing.  After doing a pretty good burnout, which I'd hoped would help, the car left the line spinning even harder than before.  The next instant the rear view mirror flew off the windshield and landed on the shifter, and the shift light flashed, and I shifted all the way past second into neutral and hit the rev limiter.  I let off and coasted down the track to an 18 second ET  >:(

Back in the pits Steve P asked me how it was possible to miss a shift with a two speed transmission.  That smartass LOL!  After a ten minute break I went back out, determined to do a little better.  I had put the rear view mirror back on, but it needed a Torx wrench to tighten it, and I didn't have one, so I did the best I could with an allen wrench.  Didn't help, the damned thing flew off again on the launch.  Again I had no traction, and got out of the groove after the 1-2 shift, and coasted down to a 12 second ET.

Back in the pits we were thinking that the tire spinning had gotten worse, not better, with the change to the instant center.  We decided to do one more thing before going back in to mess with the bars again, and that was to lower the tire pressure.  I had been running at about 13.5 psi, so we reduced it to 12.  I hadn't really wanted to do that, because going much below 13 makes the car kind of squirrely on the top end, and at the speeds I was running I didn't relish that possibility, but then if I didn't have any traction it was a worse situation, so we brought the tires down to 12 psi.  Back out on the track I had given up on the rear view mirror and left it in the pits, so at least I didn't have that distraction.  The car still spun the tires but I was able to stay in it this time and get in a full pass.  60 foot time was no better than any of the others, but the car at least seemed more drivable off the line with the lower tire pressure.

It was around noon now and so we took a break for some track food, and then I crawled back under the car to reset the four link bars.  I was pretty convinced I'd gone the wrong direction the first time, and that I need to lower the instant center for less than 100% anti-squat.  I also thought it would be a good idea to move the instant center forward of the CG, because the car had shown no tendency to pull the front tires on any of the previous runs.  The IC position I ended up at is shown in the drawing below:



The next pass was much better; the tires still spun hard but the car was much more controllable on this pass.  60 foot time was still dog slow, but the car just felt better.  I was convinced that moving the instant center was an improvement this time.  For the next pass, I decided to try some pre-load on the right rear tire, to help even out the traction.  You do this by shortening the right upper bar in the four link setup; I shortened it by about a half turn.  I also set the front struts a couple clicks softer on the extension setting, so that the front end would rise more easily.  Back out on the track the car felt about the same, with a very marginal improvement in 60 foot time and ET.  Still nowhere near where I thought it should be, but at least we were moving in the right direction.  With the air we had, and the slippery track, I knew there was going to be a limit to how well the car did.

My friend Kurt had been coaching me on the four link stuff, because I'm kind of a newb when it comes to that, and he has set up a bunch of four link cars.  He had been putting tie wraps around the rear shock shafts to see how far the shocks had been moving on the launch, and now he crawled under the car with me and showed me that the right rear shock was bottoming out on its travel, while the left rear still had a good half inch of  travel left.  Kurt suggested we adjust the right rear coil spring on the coilover shocks to make it stiffer, and try to keep that shock from bottoming out.  So, I put two turns on the collar to compress the spring on the right rear shock, and went back out for pass #7.  This time something funny happened.  Before the burnout as I sat in the box, one of the track guys came along and was looking very carefully at the starting line.  Kind of like he was looking for a problem.  After a minute or so he gave up, and they gave me the signal to do the burnout.  But this time when I launched the car darted to the left on the launch, and I had to back out of the pass after 100 feet or so.

Back in the pits we concluded that it must have been the track, because none of us could see how the change to the spring could have caused that big of a change in the car's launch characteristic.  We were almost out of time for the test and tune, but I decided to make one more pass.  We got the tire pressure right back to 12 psi, and this time I chose the other lane for the run.  The result was the best run of the day, more than two tenths quicker than the best previous run.  Sixty foot time improved by .05, but it still sucked. 

At this point I figured I was track limited, and with the test and tune over we packed up and headed home.  Today I got the car back into street trim with mufflers and street tires; this week's project is to get the car tuned up on pump premium and put a few miles on it before next weekend, just to check everything out for street driving.  Next Saturday is another test and tune, at a different track which is only 1/8 mile, but has a reputation for better starting line prep.  I'll be continuing the chassis tuning next weekend, hopefully with some better 60 foot times.  Drag Week starts two weeks from today, and while I'm sure I won't have the car perfectly dialed in, at least it will be in the ballpark before the start of the event.  Here's a picture of the car sitting in the pits, and another picture of it doing a burnout at the track on Saturday, courtesy of my friend Kip, who showed up to spectate later in the morning; I'll post another update next weekend.




« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 09:54:23 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cjetmech

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2014, 09:51:23 PM »
Congrats on getting it to the track Jay. Car looks stunning! Like an early Pro Stock car. Did you put new slicks on it? If not could that be part of the traction prob? I've always thought they lose they're stickiness after a couple years.
67 Fairlane GT 428
93 Mustang Coupe 331

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2014, 10:02:45 PM »
The tires are 3 years old, and I have been debating on whether or not I should get a new pair or not.  We'll see how the car does next weekend at a better track, and then I'll decide...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

KMcCullah

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2014, 11:05:19 PM »
Looks great Jay! Seems like your close on the 4 link. The only experience I've had with 4 link coil over was on mud so I'm not much help. But 3 year old tires could be a factor.

Sweet truck too! The tongue jack on your trailer looks damn close to draging though. Might want to adjust the receiver height. Or if you plan on towing quite a bit with it maybe try a Firestone airbag kit. I spent a couple years punishing a 2005 F150. Hauled my ATV. Then towed my camper. Then made a rack to haul the ATV sideways so I could close the tailgate and tow the camper too. Which was way waaaay more then the little truck was rated for. I finally got fed up and found my Powerstroke.  But the airbag kit is a nice one.


Kevin McCullah


Qikbbstang

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2014, 11:46:57 PM »
Just read the new Race Pages, Cal Hayward has a NMRA True Street // Hot Rod Drag Week twin turbo 400 cubic inch Fox Body running a 7.65 @185 on E85. He's been driving it to & from NMRA events in prep for Drag Week and I think even made it into the finals.  Sure is an education big time seeing all your going through to do Drag Week
BTW what kind of speeds was your truck/trailer getting 13mpg?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UABBs_rvSrc

machoneman

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 05:20:23 AM »
"My friend Kurt had been coaching me on the four link stuff, because I'm kind of a newb when it comes to that, and he has set up a bunch of four link cars". 

Kurt probably mentioned this or you already know: setting the 4-link up for easy launch then switching to the trans-brake later may upset your calculations. Perhaps a trans-brake launch or two before Drag Week is in the cards.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 05:49:31 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2014, 08:28:02 AM »
Just read the new Race Pages, Cal Hayward has a NMRA True Street // Hot Rod Drag Week twin turbo 400 cubic inch Fox Body running a 7.65 @185 on E85. He's been driving it to & from NMRA events in prep for Drag Week and I think even made it into the finals.  Sure is an education big time seeing all your going through to do Drag Week
BTW what kind of speeds was your truck/trailer getting 13mpg?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UABBs_rvSrc

I was running about 70 MPH to get that 13 MPG, sometimes even a little faster.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2014, 08:29:15 AM »
"My friend Kurt had been coaching me on the four link stuff, because I'm kind of a newb when it comes to that, and he has set up a bunch of four link cars". 

Kurt probably mentioned this or you already know: setting the 4-link up for easy launch then switching to the trans-brake later may upset your calculations. Perhaps a trans-brake launch or two before Drag Week is in the cards.

Yes, I'm aware of that.  I'm inclined  not to use the trans brake for the most part, but I may experiment with it next weekend...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Qikbbstang

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2014, 09:00:20 AM »
13mpgs great, my buddies Ecoboost MPG goes down into the single digits towing his "box" trailer on I-95 in upper 70s. I guess it's all about wind loading/drag. He also owns a 250 Diesel and is really not impressed with his Ecoboost.

Great to see you'll get more track time next week.

thatdarncat

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2014, 10:20:53 AM »
Since Jay was busy driving and wrenching he didn't have much of a chance to take pictures. Here's a few I took.

One of the first launch's. My reaction time was a little slow on the shutter.


And after starting adjustment. That's Kurt doing some filming.

And toward the end of the day.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

ScotiaFE

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2014, 01:14:06 PM »
Looks like the plan is coming together.
Best of luck at the race.


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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2014, 02:19:34 PM »
Watching with interest.  As someone who raced a 69 Mach I for over 25 years, your car looks like it sits way too high all the way around.  Is there any way you can lower the rear over those tires a couple of inches?  I know you will need to drive on the street, but still your weight bias will kill your 60' time with that ride attitude, and old tires.  On my car, I dropped the coil-overs down as low as the rules allowed, and worked from there to get squat, CG, preload, and front travel.  Also, I ran my slicks at 7.5psi and the car handled well sitting lower to the ground.  I was not in your time or speed range, but my car was stable in the 10's @125+.  A trans-brake will show you your weakest link real quick if everything is not just right and capable of handling the torque you are putting down.  Hope you get everything sorted out to your satisfaction.  Looks great!   Joe-JDC 

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 02:41:32 PM »
I would like to lower the rear of the car, Joe, and the front to match, but I run into tire clearance issues.  When I did the bodywork on the car a few years ago I just kind of trimmed the quarter panels at the bottom edges, and obviously didn't go far enough because I've had some issues with the tires hitting the bodywork.  In fact that was the case last weekend, and I ended up shortening all the four link bars up to move the rear end forward to keep the right slick from rubbing on the rear of the wheel opening.  Right now it looks like its working and I'm not getting any contact with the tires, but I'm close in a few different areas, and can't really afford to lower the car any.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cjetmech

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2014, 04:12:53 PM »
Nice pics darn cat. That engine, crammed in that engine bay just looks incredible. Cant wait to hear some HP/TQ and ET/MPH numbers. I used to think Jays Mach1 was the baddest street car ever, but I think this one tops it. This is my new favorite FE powered car on the planet, Mach1 moves to #2. ;D Hopefully it ET's better than the Mach1 ever did. Has anybody guessed an ET yet? I just plugged in my guess's into the wallace racing calc and it says 8.74@159.  :o
67 Fairlane GT 428
93 Mustang Coupe 331

thatdarncat

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2014, 05:15:16 PM »
Thanks, I'll try to get some more next weekend. Jay, I'm thinking you'll pick up some performance when you get the hood scoop sealed to the throttle bodies. A lot of air probably isn't making it into the engine. Does the data logger capture any info on lbs of fuel used/time that you could compare to what you saw on the dyno? Or any other measurement that would tell that you're leaving some power on the table?
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2014, 05:50:27 PM »
After putting up this post last night I checked the datalogs from the track on Saturday.  One thing I found was that the converter's stall speed was about 500 RPM lower than I wanted.  Definitely some power left on the table there.  Today I packed up my spare converter and shipped it off to Neal Chance Racing converters; they are going to modify that one to get the stall speed where I want it.  I won't have it back in time for this weekend, but I should be able to get it installed before Drag Week.

I'm thinking more and more about new tires, too.  But I'm not sure which way to go.  I think I'll put a post in the technical section about that...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2014, 05:51:53 PM »
Has anybody guessed an ET yet? I just plugged in my guess's into the wallace racing calc and it says 8.74@159.  :o

I wish!! LOL!
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Brutalbob

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2014, 07:36:58 PM »
Jay, I've never been happy with older slicks. On the car I sponsored we changed them every 2yrs. If you test with the current set this weekend and it doesn't work out, then you have another added problem. Better to eliminate that now rather than later. You can always use the old set another time when it isn't as important as Drag Week. Just my opinion. You know better then anyone what goes into prepping for Drag Week, eliminate anything you can now so you don't have to deal with it on the road!  Good luck Jay, you deserve it. Bob & Nahla

cjetmech

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2014, 07:59:11 PM »
Has anybody guessed an ET yet? I just plugged in my guess's into the wallace racing calc and it says 8.74@159.  :o

I wish!! LOL!
Hey nothing wrong with being optimistic ;D its just mathematics,,,,1000hp/3200lbs or so, perfect air,no mechanical probs, piece of cake!
67 Fairlane GT 428
93 Mustang Coupe 331

cjshaker

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2014, 07:59:52 PM »
Just an observation, but that right tire is not squating and grabbing near as much as the left. That probably has a lot to do with your spinning the tires off the line. No experience with 4-links though, so it's up to others to determine what causes that.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2014, 09:33:59 PM »
That's just the torque reaction, same as any other car.  You are right about that Doug, I didn't notice that before; great observation.  We added spring pressure and pre-load to the right side to try to compensate for that at the track, but maybe not enough.  I did add more preload on Sunday, so next weekend we'll see if that helps...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone03

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2014, 09:40:46 PM »
Jay the car looks awsome!

Also no experience with a 4 link ,but with the weight balance being so heavy up front don't you want it leaving more like the Mach 1 than a current pro stock car ,more on the rear bumper than the front?
Or was the track so poor it was just spinning?

It doesn't look like it's moving any "weight" at all.
Lance H

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2014, 09:43:24 PM »
Jay can you prep your drive way for some 60ft testing?

You have the "chicken coop" maybe now you need a "stock yard" or you could call it "the milking pad" ?LOL
Lance H

Rory428

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2014, 10:47:43 PM »
Frankly, I think playing with the 4 link is pretty much a wasted effort if you are blowing the slicks off on launch. For me, fresh slicks would be my first step. My SB 85 Mustang uses 9x29 Hoosier slicks, which also happen to be 3 years old (with plenty of wear hole left). They worked great when new, and fairly decent the 2nd year, but when I took the car out in July, the car spun badly, and the previous 1.37-1.38 60 foots have gone to 1.5s, and low 1.6s. I am dumping the clutch at over 6000 RPM, but I also have less than 500 HPand only run mid 10s. Time for fresh rubber Jay!(and me too.)
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2014, 11:17:23 PM »
I've pretty much come to the same conclusion, Rory.  Do you run tubes in your Mustang?
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

TimeWarpF100

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2014, 11:55:31 PM »
I've pretty much come to the same conclusion, Rory.  Do you run tubes in your Mustang?

Tires Tires Tires.

Many years ago we would always check tires with a durometer. Very surprising even after one season how much the tire would change.

Pick yourself one up,  I would be curious the difference between a new set and your current.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Intercomp/541/360092/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710735231&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180000848220&cadevice=c&gclid=CN7Ino6QsMACFZSFfgodm2YAeQ

http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/89585/10002/-1

http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/durometers

Really looking forward to what you run and how you do this year.

All the best!

cjshaker

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2014, 12:43:13 AM »
That's just the torque reaction, same as any other car.

Frankly, I think playing with the 4 link is pretty much a wasted effort if you are blowing the slicks off on launch. For me, fresh slicks would be my first step.

I understand the torque reaction. And while I agree with Rory that new tires would help, if the right tire is not planting it will unload and a new tire will not help. That leaves one tire with weight transfer for traction. Impossible on a 900+hp car. It looks as if a combination tire/preload adjustment is needed.

Edit: That left tire seems to be doing all it can to hook. It wouldn't be wrinkling that severe if it wasnt.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 12:48:52 AM by cjshaker »
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

machoneman

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2014, 05:32:10 AM »
Edit: That left tire seems to be doing all it can to hook. It wouldn't be wrinkling that severe if it wasnt.
[/quote]

I notice that too: the left tire seems to be wrinkling just right and also seems to be hooking well.

Still, as Jay noted early on, the lack of traction at that crappy track has a lot to do with poor 0-60; times and can easily fool one into making changes perhaps not needed. In a sense, one really needs to tune a car's suspension 1st on a good hooking track for a baseline, then tune for a crappy track as he would encounter on the Drag Week tour...and not the other way around. Noted too not a lot of front end lift but again, a bad track can do this. JMO!

on edit: the durometer check is a great idea. Just as one baselines a suspension, with new tires run a check and log it for future reference and comparison as the tires age. 
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 05:34:51 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

Rory428

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2014, 10:41:37 AM »
Jay, I don`t run tubes with either car. Maybe I have just been lucky, but since I stopped using tubes almost 20 years ago, I have found that by using the old dish soap trick on the inside of the sidewalls, both the Hoosiers and M/T slicks tend to hold air very well. The Fairmont has much bigger slicks, currently 13x31, have used 14x32s for many years, and on a 14" wide wheel, I normally run 10-10 1/2 psi, the Mustang usually has either 9x29 Hoosiers, or 9x29 1/2 M/Ts on either 8 or 9" wide wheels, at 12-12 12psi. Funny thing is, back when I ran a C6 (with transbrake), I had to run much less air pressure to make the car hook well, as low as 6 or 6 1/2 psi with the 14x32s.The natural rubber M/T tubes I was using were quite heavy, much heavier than a normal tube, close to 10 lbs each. I would balance the slicks at work, and after a few races, I would get a vibration, that got more severe as I made more runs. I checked the balance again, and the imbalance had gotten way off. It appears that the tubes had been moving around inside the slick, and wadding up, which put the tire out of balance.So after a while, I wound up having to remove the rear wheels, let all the air out, and then shake the slicks with the wheels laying flat on the tire machine, which would allow the tube to "flow out" evenly, so that when it was aired up again, it would be back into a balanced condition again. But I had to go thru this routine about every 20-25 passes. After talking to several Stock and Super Stock racers, it was almost unanimous to run tubeless. With new slicks, I normally can let the car sit the usual 2 weeks between races with no need to air the slicks up, the Hoosiers on the Mustang normally hold air for 2 months of sitting! Over the years, I have had some slicks lose a couple of pounds over 48 hours, but normally quite a bit longer. One thing II did notice, was if you dismounted the tires, and re mounted them, they normally held pressure less well than before. I`m guessing the stress of breaking down the sidewall beads caused some minor sidewall damage, causing air to escape easier thru the sidewalls. So I normally install new slicks, and avoid dismounting them untl they are due for replacement.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2014, 11:11:54 AM »
Thanks Rory, the consensus I'm getting here and also from talking to some local guys is to run tubeless.  I tried that in 2007, and had one tire that would lose 1 psi every half hour.  It was a huge hassle, and cost me several times when there was a delay in the staging lanes and I had to sit there for an hour before going to the line.  I did use bead screws in the wheels, maybe that was a mistake?  Do you put screws in your tires when you run tubeless?
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

MRadke

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2014, 11:21:11 AM »
If you are buying tires, why don't you get one size smaller?  You could then lower the car to improve launch and handling and would rpm better without needing to change the converter.

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2014, 11:23:59 AM »
Because I am severely, severely traction limited.  If anything I need to go to bigger tires, not smaller.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

thatdarncat

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2014, 12:23:13 PM »
Using bead screws won't make a difference on leaking air ( assuming you're using the correct bead screws and I know you are ) They don't pass through the bead. The air leaks out through the sidewall of the tire. BradFord and I have tested it with soap and water. The Goodyears I used to run would leak like a sieve right when they were brand new and testing on used ones were worse. Tubes were mandatory on those. But Goodyear has slicks with stiff sidewalls that don't need tubes. Just depends on the tire you pick.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2014, 12:31:47 PM »
Just talked to the tech guy at Hoosier.  He said if I went tubeless I would get better hook with a stiff sidewall tire, and suggested their 18221, which is one I'd been looking at.  That tire has nearly identical dimensions to the ones I've already got, but is 0.2" larger in diameter according to the specifications.  Hopefully I can tolerate that without any "bodywork" being required.  Also sounds like it might be less prone to leakage.  Thanks for all the help on this guys!
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

thatdarncat

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2014, 01:24:35 PM »
Test the fit before you put the screws in them.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

machoneman

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2014, 01:56:26 PM »
Yes, and use nice dab of clear silicone on each screw's pointy end to minimize leakage. 
Bob Maag

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2014, 03:04:30 PM »
Test the fit before you put the screws in them.

For return purposes?  Once they are mounted on the rims I'm "screwed" anyway, right?
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Rory428

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2014, 05:05:12 PM »
Jay, I do run Moroso rim screws on the Fairmont, mainly because I had already drilled the Centerline wheels for the screws years ago when I did run tubes. (I have never seen any issues of air leaking from the screws). I don`t use screws on the Mustang, as I never drilled the rims for them. My Mustang is mainly a NHRA Stock Eliminator car, running mid to low 12s, with low 1.60 60 foot times, but even with the 331 cube bracket engine, I am using the same wheels and slicks, with no screws, 60 footing mid to high 1.3s, dropping the clutch between 6000-6600, with no issues. I think the fact that I mount the slicks myself, with no tire lube on the beads helps in that respect. I put a small White Out mark on the slicks sidewall in line with the valve stem to moniter if the rim is moving inside the tire, and with new slicks, the mark normally shows that the wheel did move a bit on the first few hits, but never much over an inch, and then they stay put.
Personally I don`t think your Mustang sits up all that high, rather I think the taller tires F&R makes it look higher than it actually is, suspension geometry wise. I don`t think your Mustang sits up any higher than most Super Stock Mustangs. (Other than maybe Richard Allens 68).
By the way, the 9x29 Hoosier slicks I use on the Mustang, are the D07 compound, which is designated as a "stickshift" application. They are not a true stiff sidewall, but they are stiffer than the regular "normal" compound (D05 I believe). If a similar semi stiff sidewall is available in the size you need, that could be another option. I have to think that the stiffer sidewall has to help with the tires ability to maintain air pressure so well.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

Qikbbstang

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Re: "Test the fit before you put the screws in them." No No
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2014, 10:01:27 PM »
it's fine for a store return as long as you don't do a burnout = NOT
  Thanks for LOL

Qikbbstang

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you need to paste a name on the aqua SHELBY..... It may be tough to top Hubert's GEORGIA SHAKER for a name on the side but man the farm lends itself to a great name

cjetmech

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you need to paste a name on the aqua SHELBY..... It may be tough to top Hubert's GEORGIA SHAKER for a name on the side but man the farm lends itself to a great name
  Like What The Minnesota Missle? The Brown Bomber?
67 Fairlane GT 428
93 Mustang Coupe 331

My427stang

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2014, 10:15:58 AM »
How about "Got Milk?"

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Hemi Joel

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2014, 05:01:20 PM »
I would put the stripes on it and letter it  Professor of FEology  ;D

machoneman

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2014, 05:27:25 PM »
SOHC it to 'em!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:30:24 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2014, 06:00:42 PM »
LOL!  You guys are funny.  In almost all cases, I hate names on cars.  There are a few exceptions, but for this car I'm going to be happy with the factory GT500 stripe.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

TomP

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - August 24
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2014, 06:25:23 PM »
One thing about the height that can screw up launching is if the suspension is using up it's upward travel at ride height. You want to have as much front end travel as you can and usually that means riding close to bottomed out but street driving that way isn't practical. If the front has limited travel it will be very hard to get it to hook no matter what the rear tires and suspension are doing.
Rear travel isn't as important since that can be adjusted to squat or not.
 It should be adjustable for track conditions and i'd say you would have wanted to get as much rear tire hit as possible last weekend.

 Drag Week is held on good tracks so getting it to hook at this 1/8th mile place should be the main priority and making sure the mirror is tight would be number two. :)