High torque starter for 406

[JimNolan]

I've just went through my second starter in the same amount of years so I need you guys to tell me which High Torque Starter to buy. Hopefully some of you guys will give me your experience and recommendations. I've read a lot about having problems with this one and that so hopefully someone that's already been down this road can guide me.
I'm running a 406 10.7-1 compression with Mad Dog headers. The starter is a three bolt 184 tooth later model starter. The number 4 tube comes down right by the starter. I'm getting scared to take the car out and I need to get this thing ordered and installed yesterday. Thanks guys. Jim

[Ford428CJ]

If I was going to buy one... I would look hard at RobbMc Performance! You can index the starter to an position you want! I do mean any and not a set position. That is very cool and versatile... JMHO

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/fordat_starter.html

[My427stang]

I agree, I haven't used one, but I also like that they have an option to support the starter drive. 

[jayb]

There have been some issues with Robb's starters in the past, but I think they are all worked out now.  I would look at one of those, or else a Powermaster that can be clocked to different positions, so it can be adjusted to fit your headers.  Like this one:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-9506/overview/make/ford

[JimNolan]

Thanks guys,
   I just ordered the PowerMaster XS 9506. I figure for an extra 35 bucks if it fails, their best failed. I'm working with a guy now on the cast shorty headers for my car and getting rid of the Maddog full length headers. I don't drag race it anyway so it may as well look like stock. He's asking a fortune for them but says that they aren't pitted and no welds or cracks. Hopefully between a 240 dollar starter and stock headers I won't have to replace starters from heat soak damage every year. Thanks again guys. Jim

[amdscooter]

Hi Jim, I'm surprised you are toasting starters already. Let us know how your new kit turns out and fits. Do you think they are failing from turning your hi-comp motor or heat? I replaced my starter when I did the work on my 390 some time back. The FPA header is pretty close to the starter and I considered putting one of those thermal wraps on the starter. And by considered I mean I bought it and never got around to putting it on because I have not had any issues.. yet.

[cjshaker]

I have never had an issue with starters, even on my Mach with Hooker headers, and they have two tubes that snake REAL close to the starter. Same with my '68 F250 with headers which has had the same heavy duty OEM type starter for almost 20 years. I've used good stock type OEM starters, a Rough Stuff high torque starter that lasted 13 years and just recently quit because of dirty brushes (it wasn't burnt out) and just recently bought a Powermaster high torque OEM style. The Powermaster unit I just bought needed a slight clearancing on the snout, but it turns my 10.53 to 1 427 over fine even after it's fully heated up, but time will tell how long it lasts.

I HAVE gotten as many as 3 bad starters in a row on rebuilt starters at work though, on common newer cars. That was pretty crazy and after the 3rd time removing and replacing them I was just about to take it and chuck it through the window of the local parts store...LOL I think if you're using stock type rebuilt starters that it's just a low quality issue common with just about any 'ordinary' replacement part.

[My427stang]

I also have stock rebuilds on both strokers, the 489 starter has been on there since 19978 when it was a 427

With that being said, I am sure you'll like the new starter. 

[fe66comet]

Same here with remanufactured and new replacement parts store starters. Alternators, hubs and brake parts are common also to failures.

[Ratbird]

I have a 410 with 10.5 compression, and the FPA headers almost touch the header. I used header wrap (for the old school rat look. I also slipped a thermal wrap around the stock 390 starter.
So basically like AMDSCOOTER described.
No trouble for over a year now.

Dave J

[JimNolan]

Let me answer some questions. The first starter I had when I replaced the 390 with the 406.The second starter has lasted about 15K miles. It was a NAPA replacement. The Maddog headers have one tube (4) that comes within an inch of the starter. When I started having heat soak problems the first of the year I replaced the 4 year old battery I had on it. It gets continually worse to where I'm afraid it won't start. I usually just lay on the key and it springs to life after about three cranks of barely cranking over. Now I think it's going to quit cranking. As to what I think is the cause. Heat. It did crank fine when cold (although now it doesn't). It can't be compression because I've got the same compression starting as I do driving it a short time, shutting it off and trying to restart it.  My 410 with 9.5 compression and FPA headers on my 57 has about 10k miles on it now and I've never had any problems with it and it had about 25K miles on it when I installed it on the 410. It's just heat doing it, all it could be.
I do have a piece of advice though with my experiences. When you do start to experience heat soak problems with a starter, every time it turns over slowly before it (catches) and starts cranking normal, it's doing damage to the starter. After enough damage it'll crank slowly more often and when the engine is cooler also.
I'm looking at this new starter as insurance when I'm a long way from home. ( Replacing starters with headers on is not my idea of fun)
Thanks again guys. Jim 

[JimNolan]

Well, I got good news and bad news about the Powermaster XS 9506 starter I bought.
THE BAD NEWS FIRST:
I positioned the starter with the motor pointing straight down. That left the starter cable turned toward the back but what the heck. It'll work, I'll just put the cable on before installation. Got it all ready to go in and you couldn't insert the bottom bolt because the starter motor and flange hole were too close. That's alright I'll loosen the index screws, swivel the mounting flange around insert bolt in hole and re-index to correct position. That done I'm ready to install. OOPs, starter won't fit flat against bell housing mount. Starter motor is hitting the bottom ear on the block, bell housing bolt goes in that ear so I better not cut it off. Disassemble starter again and index starter motor until it just clears the block casing. Bolted it all up, hooked up the wires and just let it crank a short time to make sure it engaged correctly and turned motor over without any unusual noises. Proceeded to hook up header pipes 3 and 4. No. 3 went OK and No. 4 hit starter motor to where you couldn't connect the header. Took starter off and put it in the box ready to ship back to Summit.
Conclusion.
If your running Maddog Full Length Headers the No. 4 tube will keep you from using the indexing option on the 9506 Powermaster starter. If you didn't have a header pipe running straight down from No. 4 cylinder you could index the motor straight out toward the right tire without any problems. But then again you wouldn't need the damn starter if you didn't have header pipes running down by the starter creating heat in the first place, now would you.
THE GOOD NEWS:
NAPA has a lifetime warranty on their starters so they just replaced it. I'd bought it in the summer of 2012. So, it was two years old instead of a year old like I thought before. Anyway, I'm going to buy a thermal wrap for it ( hope it fits). Jim

UPDATE: New Napa rebuilt starter wouldn't restart the car after 5 min of engine running (thermo shield wrap installed also). Called Powermaster and he suggested 3131 OEM type starter they had. I ordered it. Also, he said throw that thermo wrap away. He said it just held in heat and Powermaster didn't want you to use them.

[jayb]

Well, that sucks that you couldn't use the Powermaster starter.  I guess every header/chassis/engine combination is a little different.  Good luck with the next one.

[cjshaker]

UPDATE: New Napa rebuilt starter wouldn't restart the car after 5 min of engine running (thermo shield wrap installed also). Called Powermaster and he suggested 3131 OEM type starter they had. I ordered it. Also, he said throw that thermo wrap away. He said it just held in heat and Powermaster didn't want you to use them.

Jim, I missed this last post. That is the same starter I used on my Mach. 10.53-1 compression with Hooker headers that have ALL the tubes run right by the starter. And I mean with about 1/2" clearance at the most on a couple. Mustangs are tight with headers. I have no problems with starting even when the engine is hot and having been driven for a while, then shut off and left to sit for a few minutes. I also agree with Powermaster that the heat wrap just holds in the heat. Heat will penetrate regardless, the wrap just holds it in longer when it's shut off.

If you still have a problem, it is probably a ground and/or battery issue, or even possibly a wire issue. With heat, current draw goes up so one weak link will cause major headaches. I hope the new starter cures your problem.

[jayb]

Doug, I have to say my experience has been a lot like Jim's even way back in the late 1970s when I just started out with FEs.  I have never been able to get a stock starter to start a strong FE engine (and by strong I mean around 400 HP) once the engine is hot.  Mine always did exactly what Jim has described; you hold the key and the starter turns the engine about a quarter turn and stops, and then does it again, and again.  After a few times like this the engine will usually start, but not always.  If you let the engine cool down for 45 minutes, the starter will spin the engine over like its brand new. 

I went to ridiculous extremes to solve this problem back in the late 1970s and early 1980s in my 68 Shelby, going so far as to run 2-0 cable from the battery to the solenoid and then down to the starter, and hooking the ground connection of the battery to one of the starter bolts.  I even bought a 1200 amp semi truck battery, weighing 140 pounds, built a framework for it in the trunk of the car, and ran 2-0 cable to the front.  Throw in about 5 or 6 different starters from different manufacturers, including an Accel high torque starter that was available back in the day, different starter solenoids, wrapping the headers to keep in heat, wrapping the starter to keep out heat, etc. etc., and I never got satisfactory results on a hot engine.

To me, the gear reduction mini starters solved a chronic problem with FE engines, and they are one of the major improvements available for the FE.  It baffles me how people like you and Ross can get the stock starters to work so well, when I have had nothing but problems with them.  Go figure...