Roots supercharging a Ford FE?

[fe66comet]

Just theoretically what would have to be done on a 500 cube FE with an iron block to support a 871 blower, it of course would be an aftermarket cross bolted block. And what kind of HP could be realized on pump gas with a 7.5:1 compression ratio. The limitations or a Roots is generally idle to 5500 rpm so the camshaft would not have to be a monster and I would say a Blue thunder high riser head would be in order along with the intake.

[ScotiaFE]

Well you would need to spend a few bags of money to get all the goodies.
Other than that you would need to spend a few more bags of money to get all the goodies
to put the power to the ground.
Other than that it's totally doable.

[fe66comet]

Actually a Roots engine is a mild build, some good forged pistons, forged crank,scat H Beam Rods and hydraulic roller would do the bottom end. The heads are 2500, block 3500, supercharger with intake 4 grand from Gary Dyre. Roots is a totally different thing from a centrifugal or turbo engine.

[machoneman]

Just theoretically what would have to be done on a 500 cube FE with an iron block to support a 871 blower, it of course would be an aftermarket cross bolted block. And what kind of HP could be realized on pump gas with a 7.5:1 compression ratio. The limitations or a Roots is generally idle to 5500 rpm so the camshaft would not have to be a monster and I would say a Blue thunder high riser head would be in order along with the intake.

BDS and a few other blower specific sites like Dyers has some pretty good basic info on blower engines. One of the big issues is the huge cost of the intake, blower, drive and carb & linkage setup, something I'm sure you already know and can easily exceed $7,000 bucks. 

http://www.blowerdriveservice.com/common-questions.html

Opinions here may vary (LOL!) but:

-with a 500 CID FE, not sure one would need or want to invest in a blower as hp at even 1.25 per cube would be 625. 
-you didn't mention the blower ratio or boost level. It's easy to get in trouble trying to run pump gas and any kind of boost over say 7-8 lbs or so.
-Hp wise, it's easy to get about 1.3 hp / CID with a lightly boosted 8-71 or about 650 hp with a 500 CID engine.  But, one can also attain that level of hp, and more, as Jay, Barry and Brent have shown with numerous builds w/o supercharging.
-Most charger'ed cars are set-up for show as opposed to gargantuan hp levels. Still, one could easily top the 1,000 hp mark with the right parts in that 500 CID FE but now we're talking major boost levels (think: 50% and more over crank rpms) and the highest octane racing gas.
-JMO! 

This site has a nice generic chart on boost /gasoline types as boost goes up.

http://www.superchargerusa.com/tech_boost_fuel.htm
 

[fe66comet]

I was thinking about 10psi with maybe 20 % overdrive. And using 98 octane fuel with a TBI system to keep detonation down. I actually am looking for about 800 HP whether that cam be achieved with 98 octane would be an issue?

[sumfoo1]

It all goes back to how much power do you want??

I mean if you just want a chrome thing coming out of your hood with a pulley on it you don't have to do much...

Forged low comp bottom end for 8+ psi imho

and I mean if you really want power....

Screw it...



But it sound like you know what you want... as far as FE parts go a cross bolted aftermarket block with a forged bottom end is all you really need.

[fairlanegt427]

i really like the high riser blower motor you want to do. but if you run medium riser stuff which is much more available. your check book wouldnt be taking as much of a beating.  also look at jays intake adapter he makes for the fe.  that way you can buy a cleveland blower intake and go that way it would be much cheaper.  also big air flow is fine but the chambers are only gonna use so much air and  fuel no matter how much you stuff it,  the rest just goes out tailpipe.

[machoneman]

Jay's adaptor with a C blower intake may also solve another big issue with GMC superchargers and FE's: getting the ditzy in and cap/wires to clear is a bitch.

The added height may just solve that issue as well. JMO!

Btw, I've never seen a really high boost blower like the PSI blower on a streeter.  Now that would be cool!

[hotrodfeguy]

I think a good book I have read and done most of my research from is street supercharging. I forgot who wrote it as someone loaned it from me and it never came back. But as I understand it on a roots system it gives more of a bottom end punch. A centrifcal supercharger is mor mid range power. Roots types are right there off idle and are not real suited on top end like the others. I think its becaise the design is similar to a turbo. Just a hunch. Now something to consider is E-85 as a fuel it can withstand the CR much better in a boost application than what Gas does. go to E-85.com and do some reaserch you will find some guys have gone to 40PSI!!!! This means you could build a engine that would be a normal NA engine and just put your supercharger on it. Save for the cam events you want a wide LSA. As the boost would push your un burned gas out the EX with a overlap situation. Now if your not in a area with E-85 you are on the right track. But there are many old versions of the JIMMY 6-71 with the lip and thats the pre cursor to the B&M AND AFTERMARKET 8-71 ect. these companies have made copies of those, thus there parts interchange. If you find a core like this you can get a cheap economical blower. As you said keeping the revs down also mean syou do not need crazy Stell cranks or Hbeam rods ECT. I think as long as your keeping everything under 6k Forged pistons and rpm rod bolts would be about it. even for a 390. The Weiand 7282 and the cousin OFFY 360 2x4 make the easiest intake to put a plate on. I know I made this intake for a FE BLOWER combo. Sold it at Jefferson swap meet here 2 years ago. But once you have the 2 just make a plte to bolt one way then the other. ALSO Note make support stands L/R of the carb mounts as the bloer take alot to drive it. Anyways.DYERS in Chicago will make you ANY custom drive you want or need. You do not need the 3"TOOTHED NHRA TOP FUEL style drive you see most folks running for a 8-10 psi set up. Just talk to them. You can get by with far less. I had a small supercharger one time on my 2V 351C Mach 1 2" serpintine belt. And it would clobber a 69 Green 428CJ GT coupe yes coupe "built up" back in 1990 he put more soup to it and still walked over it although he was hanging with me better . I mean it was not even in the same zip code I would granny shift and walk off with him with the stock 2v cam and 3.00 open rear. But that gives you an idea of what a roots does for bottom end. I later put a OD toploader in it and a better cam in it. It then would do 140-145 in Montana when they had that reasonable and prudent speed thing they shut down soon after When the Germans would come to vacation here to drive Montana instead of the autobahn.

Hope this helps.

[fe66comet]

I saw a lot of Gary's work back in the early 90s. He makes about any intake you can think of. I am waiting for one of Jays adapters for my 445 right now to mount a Trick flow BOX R intake, I can see then what kind of clearance I have. My next build I am doing for my 66 Comet, I am looking for about 800 HP total, any more than that the transmission and rear end would become a concern.

[TomP]

Why use an adapted intake on HR heads when a Blue Thunder one already meant for that blower on MR heads is available?  Don't crutch the belt drive to fit a distributor, that can be solved with a shortened, angle driven or relocated distributor.

[fe66comet]

For that matter you could just run s crank trigger and coil packs. I would go with fuel injection anyhow to control detonation and keep a closer eye on my AFR. I saw at the speed shop the other day MSD makes a distributorless universal ignition system with coil on plug. I might be able to get away with a 6-71 but I am not sure it would be real efficient on a 500 cube engine. One reason I was thinking of the high riser heads was because Blue Thunder already had the intake and heads set up for it and with forced induction there certainly would be no lag off the line.

[sumfoo1]

No roots style blower is very efficient... Hence i posted a twin screw.
6-71 i agree will only flow about what a well built 500cid FE should anyway.

but... for grins... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Roots_Supercharger_efficiency_map.jpg/640px-Roots_Supercharger_efficiency_map.jpg

[machoneman]

While it's true that GMC blowers are low in efficiency, especially at higher rpm and boost levels, there is a reason why GM installed same long ago in buses and heavy trucks. Although both were  in low rpm diesel applications, the tremendous boost it gave at low rpms allowed what seemingly was too small of an engine to push some mighty big loads. In fact, early drag racer efforts to improve the blowers were aimed (and still are today) at high speed efficiency. The PSI blower noted above literally was an effort to improve the original GMC blower's efficiency by using scrolled lobes (although later racing GMC' s used these as well) pushing the outlet air in a different direction.

We put a Dyers 6-71 in about 1975 or so on a 392 Hemi plopped into Kenny Hess' '67 Plymouth Belvidere. Even with a mild cam, tune and IIRC a 3.25 rear gear behind a Torqueflite, that car would smoke so pretty big M/T tires in 1st and 2nd as long as one kept the pedal down. Frankly, if you've ever driven a 6-71 or 8-71 blown streeter, you'd know it's all about outstanding low-mid range response that no turbo car can give.     

[sumfoo1]

Ohh NO! you stepped on my turbo toes!

I completely agree with everything you said...

That last line just hurts me though...  Depending on the goal of the engine you can size turbos for crazy quick response or for huge power... just not for both without using variable geometry or something.... I mean i'm planning on two 80mm turbos for my FE just to slow down spool not because i plan on hitting the 2400hp+ they should be capable of.

8-71, 10-71, screw superchargers... all have their place  just  in my opinion 6-71s usually cause so much sacrifice to make up for their efficiency that a well built n/a motor will be able to keep up or eclipse. Also not too many aftermarket roots blowers have intercooler provisions in the intake to compensate for the heat they add to the air.   

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com//aftermarket/matchbot/index.html#version=1.3&displacement=8.4&CID=512.5680000000001&altitude=500&baro=14.502&aat=75&turboconfig=2&compressor=91s74&pt1_rpm=2000&pt1_ve=85&pt1_boost=5&pt1_ie=99&pt1_filres=0.08&pt1_ipd=0.2&pt1_mbp=0.5&pt1_ce=66&pt1_te=75&pt1_egt=1550&pt1_ter=1.18&pt1_pw=1.89&pt1_bsfc=0.43&pt1_afr=11.5&pt1_wts=300&pt1_wd=83&pt1_wd2=74&pt1_wrsin=69033&pt2_rpm=3000&pt2_ve=95&pt2_boost=5&pt2_ie=95&pt2_filres=0.1&pt2_ipd=0.2&pt2_mbp=1&pt2_ce=70&pt2_te=73&pt2_egt=1600&pt2_ter=1.36&pt2_pw=48.95&pt2_bsfc=0.45&pt2_afr=11.5&pt2_wts=320&pt2_wd=83&pt2_wd2=74&pt2_wrsin=73635&pt3_rpm=4000&pt3_ve=95&pt3_boost=5&pt3_ie=95&pt3_filres=0.12&pt3_ipd=0.3&pt3_mbp=1.3&pt3_ce=74&pt3_te=72&pt3_egt=1650&pt3_ter=1.61&pt3_pw=67.8&pt3_bsfc=0.48&pt3_afr=11.5&pt3_wts=340&pt3_wd=83&pt3_wd2=74&pt3_wrsin=78238&pt4_rpm=5000&pt4_ve=95&pt4_boost=5&pt4_ie=92&pt4_filres=0.15&pt4_ipd=0.4&pt4_mbp=1.5&pt4_ce=76&pt4_te=71&pt4_egt=1650&pt4_ter=1.81&pt4_pw=73.5&pt4_bsfc=0.5&pt4_afr=11.5&pt4_wts=368&pt4_wd=83&pt4_wd2=74&pt4_wrsin=84681&pt5_rpm=6000&pt5_ve=95&pt5_boost=5&pt5_ie=90&pt5_filres=0.18&pt5_ipd=0.5&pt5_mbp=1.8&pt5_ce=72&pt5_te=70&pt5_egt=1650&pt5_ter=1.98&pt5_pw=74.52&pt5_bsfc=0.52&pt5_afr=11.5&pt5_wts=400&pt5_wd=83&pt5_wd2=74&pt5_wrsin=92044&pt6_rpm=7000&pt6_ve=95&pt6_boost=5&pt6_ie=90&pt6_filres=0.2&pt6_ipd=0.6&pt6_mbp=2&pt6_ce=66&pt6_te=70&pt6_egt=1650&pt6_ter=2.18&pt6_pw=36.06&pt6_bsfc=0.55&pt6_afr=11.5&pt6_wts=400&pt6_wd=83&pt6_wd2=74&pt6_wrsin=92044&

1400hp capable... spools by 2000 rpm.

[RJP]

While it's true that GMC blowers are low in efficiency, especially at higher rpm and boost levels, there is a reason why GM installed same long ago in buses and heavy trucks. Although both were  in low rpm diesel applications, the tremendous boost it gave at low rpms allowed what seemingly was too small of an engine to push some mighty big loads. In fact, early drag racer efforst to improve the blowers were aimed (and still are today) at high speed efficiency. The PSI blower noted above literally was an effort to improve the original GMC blower's efficiency by using scrolled lobes (although later racing GMC' used this too) pushing the outlet air in a different direction.

We put a Dyers 6-71 in about 1975 or so on a 392 Hemi plopped into Kenny Hess' '67 Plymouth Belvidere. Even with a mild cam, tune and IIRC a 3.25 rear gear behind a Torqueflite, that car would smoke so pretty big M/T tires in 1st and 2nd as long as one kept the pedal down. Frankly, if you've ever driven a 6-71 or 8-71 blown streeter, you'd know it's all about outstanding low-mid range response that no turbo car can give.   

OEM GMC blowers were for cylinder evacuation only, they never were intended to make boost. All 53, 71, 92, 149 series GMC diesels are 2 stroke and need blowers to clear the cylinders of exhaust gases.

[fe66comet]

I am thinking on the same lines as far as torque and low to mid RPM. I have a supercharged Buick V6 in a Park Ave, it has a lot of power for a little six. I had the identical car without the blower and it was a total pig. I am amazed the difference it makes on a small displacement engine with stock parts.

[fe66comet]

A turbo does add a lot of heat, the supercharger only gets hot when you spin it beyond it's efficiency window. Generally if sized right a blower is good from idle to 5500 with no heat gains.

[machoneman]

I like turbos but one is pretty much stuck with any auto tranny to load the convertor while the turbos spin up. On the other had, stick or auto, a GMC 6-71 or 8-71 will blow away at the low and mid-range most streetable turbos....that's a fact.

[drdano]

While I'm bench racing with someone elses money...what about a compound turbocharger setup? 

[machoneman]

Hah! 

We put a Dyers 6-71 in about 1975 or so on a 392 Hemi plopped into Kenny Hess' '67 Plymouth Belvidere. Even with a mild cam, tune and IIRC a 3.25 rear gear behind a Torqueflite, that car would smoke so pretty big M/T tires in 1st and 2nd as long as one kept the pedal down. Frankly, if you've ever driven a 6-71 or 8-71 blown streeter, you'd know it's all about outstanding low-mid range response that no turbo car can give.   

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/0510sc-principles/

[machoneman]

While I'm bench racing with someone elses money...what about a compound turbocharger setup?

They exist yet I've never seen or even heard of one in gasoline streeter or gasoline/alky racer. This system would eliminate a lot of low end turbo lag w/o hurting that tremendous (that word again...LOL!) top end charge. 

https://www.atsdiesel.com/ats2/templates/template_06.asp?p=2029422272&c=36
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/1302dp_compounding_turbo_crash_course/

[fe66comet]

I did actually consider turbo and a centrifugal blows, but for idle to 6000 the roots or screw compessor seemed the best deal. Price wise you end up the same or a little more with turbo due to an intercooler and waste gate. Plus the coolness factor of a blower and injection system sticking out of the hood is over the top. I can go E85 and go monster boost as suggested before but I am not really sure if there would be a whole lot to gain there and the fuel itself is a big pain to deal with. If it sits it collects water and causes corrosion, also fuel mixture can be inconsistent and contain water to begin with. I do have two 750 CFM Edelbrock carburetors converted to E85 that I could use but they might be anemic with a supercharger and 500 cubes.

[sumfoo1]

for the hp you're looking for  (under 1000)

two garrett gt3076rs would  make full boost before your foot made it all the way to the floor...

I know that's not going to change your mind but... thats what i mean about sizing turbos.

I'm trying to not make boost below 2500 rpm unless i use a 2 step hence i'm using turbos that flow over twice what the 3076s flow for a very similar motor.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1004_twin_turbo_pontiac_engine/
even this engine has signifiantly larger turbos than that  (though it doesn't need them)

I like turbos but one is pretty much stuck with any auto tranny to load the convertor while the turbos spin up. On the other had, stick or auto, a GMC 6-71 or 8-71 will blow away at the low and mid-range most streetable turbos....that's a fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXDMXvpbJMQ

turbo LS Small block 6 speed.... need i say more

A 2 step works fine  or low rpm rev limiter that causes the car to back fire some and spool the turbos.

[TomP]

Is wasn't aware Blue Thunder made any High Riser intakes. If the claim to i'd check availablity first before getting your hopes up. They have been out of stock on lots of things for long periods.

[fe66comet]

At this point talk is all I have going LOL, I have more projects than cash. I eventually would like to build another engine for my 66 Comet, I have a aftermarket 385 block that was used in a drag car but the size and weight has me reconsidering. Another factor is cost wise the FE is actually more cost effective per HP to build and is quite a bit narrower overall. I could go with a two stage turbo but then it is twice the cost, I would more than likely go with a centrifugal blower first if I went that route. Two turbo systems are definitely cool but the complexity and cost is somewhat prohibitive. Basically I am thinking a top mounted supercharger with some sort of injection, probably Fast with two four barrel throttle bodys. HP wise it would depend on what a stick trans and rear end could be built to handle, I would want something streetable so a two speed is kinda mute.

[Ford428CJ]

You dont need a compound set up to get rid of turbo lag... You need a variable vain turbo! If it was me.... This is what I would go with! Can you say... "BAD ASS"!? LOL

http://aerocharger.com/turbo-systems/automotive/pontiacg8/

http://aerocharger.com/aerochargers/66series/

[sumfoo1]

Aero chargers used to be junk but I haven't seen one in years.

The reason you see variable vane turbos on diesel and not gas engines is usually they can't handle the egts.

[fe66comet]

Why not a turbo into a supercharger? OH wait KABOOM ,I hate when that happens LOL.

[sumfoo1]

It's done all the time

http://www.hellionpowersystems.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=140

Blower makes the motor act bigger turbos work as usual.

All this stuff is a function of intake air temp if you intercool the heck out of your boost back to ambient (sometimes better with ice boxes) you can do whatever you want without really risking detonation until you reach pressure levels that will yield the rod without detonation.

[machoneman]

Speaking of Roots/GMC blowers on FE Fords:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1406950551/Blown+FE+progress+-+or+how+to+outrun+your+dyno

[Drew Pojedinec]

there is a reason why GM installed same long ago in buses and heavy trucks. Although both were  in low rpm diesel applications, the tremendous boost it gave at low rpms allowed what seemingly was too small of an engine to push some mighty big loads.

The dude that wrote that above is incorrect.
GM installed blowers on 2 stroke engines because they can't run without them.  RJP has it right.
I've worked on Detroit and EMD diesels forever...  they don't have intake valves, they have ports that are uncovered when the piston is at the bottom of it's stroke.  When the piston is at the bottom the 4 exhaust valves are opened and the blower pushes the exhaust out and the fresh air in.

On a slightly related note, what would be a fun project on a gas engine....
Detroit v92 series use both a blower and turbocharger.  The blower is for the engine at low rpms, when the engine speed and load increases it disengages the blower and just uses the turbo charger.  Would be cool to find a way to adapt that clutch and system to a car.  EMD 710's do this as well if I recall, tho the blower probably weights more than your car engine.

The blowers on the 645's I work with (btw if you like blower whine, these two engines humming along at 800rpms is awesome)

[machoneman]

Yah, blowers are way cool

Maybe we can talk Jay into adding say a 6-71 or 8-71 to one of his Cammers. Now that is going to have a absolutely killer look!     

[BH107]

You don't have anything until you have it injected with 4 turbos and a supercharger!

[RJP]

there is a reason why GM installed same long ago in buses and heavy trucks. Although both were  in low rpm diesel applications, the tremendous boost it gave at low rpms allowed what seemingly was too small of an engine to push some mighty big loads.

The dude that wrote that above is a moron.
GM installed blowers on 2 stroke engines because they can't run without them.  Bob Maag has it right.
I've worked on Detroit and EMD diesels forever...  they don't have intake valves, they have ports that are uncovered when the piston is at the bottom of it's stroke.  When the piston is at the bottom the 4 exhaust valves are opened and the blower pushes the exhaust out and the fresh air in.

On a slightly related note, what would be a fun project on a gas engine....
Detroit v92 series use both a blower and turbocharger.  The blower is for the engine at low rpms, when the engine speed and load increases it disengages the blower and just uses the turbo charger.  Would be cool to find a way to adapt that clutch and system to a car.  EMD 710's do this as well if I recall, tho the blower probably weights more than your car engine.

The blowers on the 645's I work with (btw if you like blower whine, these two engines humming along at 800rpms is awesome)






Sorry to get offtopic,  I just hate magazine jackoffs spouting gospel when it's clear they've never worked anywhere near what they are speaking about.

First you call Bob Maag a moron as he is the one who made that statement you quoted then you say he has it right.....which is it? No need to call anyone a moron as I politely corrected him and he thanked me for it.

[Drew Pojedinec]

edited for accuracy.  Thanks RJP for noticing my lack of reading comprehension.

[sumfoo1]

that's the best part of my screen name... i have an "i could be a moron" disclaimer in every post.
I doubt that boat needs compound turbos and a blower... but at-least they are plumbed correctly.
the one that would drive me more nuts is having 4 tiny parallel turbos.

[fe66comet]

Insane LOL my KABOOM statement still applies, to build such an engine under those pressures would take top fuel kind of parts. You would need a much better block than a FE has to offer.

[Faron]

671 Hampton on My 390 Raced for 20+ years + street Miles works great , Questions shoot away 

[fe66comet]

The first automotive use that I can recollect was the 1938 Cord. Other than that it was used to boost HP in aircraft engines. Another super charched auto application was the Studabaker Hawk, both were for boosting compression. I think the Packard company had a version also.

[sumfoo1]

I thought the aircraft use wasn't so much for horsepower but to compensate for pressure differential at altitude.

Sort of like turbo normalized vs turbo charged.

[fe66comet]

Weight was at a premium and they needed to carry more for bombs and guns, I have a 1930s Continental 90HP. It was offered either way, compression is only 6:1 so it was an easy swap.

[Heo]

The first automotive use that I can recollect was the 1938 Cord. Other than that it was used to boost HP in aircraft engines. Another super charched auto application was the Studabaker Hawk, both were for boosting compression. I think the Packard company had a version also.

Airplanes and studebaker was centrifugal supercharger. 57 ford also
I think Cord was a Mc Cullog centrifugal to
Mercedes SSK of the 20s was roots type blower.and Bentley,Alfa Romeo
Auto union,Bugatti and some other European Grand prix racers

[fe66comet]

Yup they sure were great cars, I saw a Cord at Carlisle as a kid and fell in love. That will never happen LOL

[sumfoo1]

Is it bad that my unrealistic dream car is a gt-40 and my realistic dream car is the ford -gt (remake?)
Sigh...

[fe66comet]

Maybe I should supercharge the N-600 truck I am looking at, that would give me a little tow go AY LOL.

[BB-63]

I'm late to the party but what you propose is a valid path. I'm an engineer with Whipple Superchargers (and an FE guy) and we sell that formula all the time. Take a stock engine, add a supercharger of about half the engine displacement, run 8 psi or so boost, and you'll see about 1.5 the stock HP output.  The key is the intercooler and proper tuning.  Keep it cool, don't over rev it and you're engine will last as long as stock.  Just my $.02.

[fe66comet]

That was my thinking, why beat it to death when you do not have to.

[machoneman]

I'm late to the party but what you propose is a valid path. I'm an engineer with Whipple Superchargers (and an FE guy) and we sell that formula all the time. Take a stock engine, add a supercharger of about half the engine displacement, run 8 psi or so boost, and you'll see about 1.5 the stock HP output.  The key is the intercooler and proper tuning.  Keep it cool, don't over rev it and you're engine will last as long as stock.  Just my $.02.

Good to hear from real engineer!

I had planned long ago to run in Super Comp a true crate engine (gone through but with few parts changes, no porting, maybe a cam change) with a 6-71 at some 12-14 lbs. of boost. A 351 W (sorry) could easily do 600 RWHP in a 1550 lb. ready-to-run F.E.D., run after run, and turn  low 8.0's w/o a throttle stop.

Sorry I never did so!   

[BruceS]

BB-63, is there a Whipple kit for an FE as you described?  Got me thinking... 

Bruce

[BB-63]

BruceS - Whipple doesn't have a "kit" per se for the FE's but we have "hot rod" kits that bolt up to 6-71 manifolds.  I haven't added one to my 390 yet because I'd like to go with port injection and most 6-71 manifolds don't have the injector bosses. I say most but quite honestly, the only one I know of is Whipple's new big block Chevy manifold (mostly marine application).  I'm working on something using Jay's adapter but it's still a tight squeeze.  If his adapter had injector bosses, it would be pretty easy.

[BB-63]

machoneman - Thanks. I'm a curious gear head first, and engineer second.  I find it's prudent to defer to those who have done and try to understand why rather than assume I know better because the sheep skin says so.  That's why I'm on this forum; lots of real experience from the members.  I look forward to the education!

[jayb]

I'll bet that the high riser/tunnel port version of my intake adapter could be machined with injector bosses, because it is close to an inch taller right up by the valve cover rail.  It is a more expensive casting, but could be machined to fit a medium engine with no trouble, and the extra meat up by the valve cover rail could be used for the injector bosses.  I may be interested in taking that on as a special projects down the road a ways...

[BB-63]

Good point. It's not a lot of space needed if the bosses are far enough outboard.  I want to aim the injector right at the back of the valve stem, so the further inboard I go, the steeper the angle I need for the injector.  That's what takes up the space.

[sumfoo1]

Wow welcome aboard.

its the belt drive that i would really have to do some head scratching to figure out.

[fe66comet]

Adding bungs is a rather simple weld in deal so a standard adaptor I am sure would work. My other thought was two four barrel throttle body's. Or even adding the bung to the head and modifying valve covers and the head rail to allow room for the injector.

[BB-63]

fe66comet - I've tried to fit an injector port on the 13001 and 13002 adapters but I still break through into the machined portion on the head side of the adapter.  A weld in bung would interfere with the gasket face on the inlet side.  See the attached screenshot.  Jay's right, I'd need to use a thicker adapter.

[fe66comet]

Just some thoughts, that is kinda why I was leaning toward a modified intake design that would place the injector in the area where the valve cover rail is. That would also require modified valve covers, along with quite a bit of welding and machine work. The plus side would be a one piece blower intake like the blue thunder could be used and the injectors would be to the sides of the blower housing rather than underneath to keep heat away from the injector.

[BB-63]

True.  Another option might be placing the injectors inside the manifold but you'd have to open it up like the one in the link below.  I'm toying with the idea of making a port injected 6-71 style manifold for the FE.  Whipple just finished one for the big block Chevy (that's the one in the link) but has no plans to follow suit with Ford.  I've been given the OK to pursue it if I want.

https://whipplesuperchargers.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=223

[fe66comet]

The one pictured if I am not wrong seems to point the injector inward? Not exactly optimum placement, that is the issue that I would guess steers most away from building a intake of that design.

[BB-63]

It must be an optical illusion.  The injectors on that manifold point right at the back of the valve stem. The dual injector on is shown in the red CAD image.  It's a lot of fun trying to make it all work!

[TomP]

Are there Whipplechargers that adapt a carb on top or are they all meant for rear inlet throttle bodies?

[BB-63]

Yes, they are called radial entry rather than axial.  There are also rear feed and front feed.

[fe66comet]

I always wondered why nobody has come out with that style intake, the 3800 Buick used them for years . How is injector size and pressure affected being on the boost side?

[BB-63]

It's more flow restriction on the air side.  On the whole, you stand to gain more in terms of power, efficiency, and drivability from the individual cylinder control of port injection than the loss from air flow restriction.  That's on a boosted engine, of course.  I wouldn't presume that to be the case on NA engines.  That said, I have seen plenty of secondary "shower head" injectors on motorcycle engines.  Those are in the air flow path and could be considered a restriction. 

[MeanGene]

You don't have anything until you have it injected with 4 turbos and a supercharger!

I saw that thing at a show a couple years ago- the guys girlfriend saw me trying to follow the plumbing on it as it didn't make a lot of sense- she laughed and said yeah, pretty much stock engine with a lot of hoohaa hung on it- he wouldn't start it up LOL
IIRC those "airboxes" on top were repurposed valve covers

[fe66comet]

Kinda like the guy with a mailbox bolted to the hood LOL.

[RJP]

You don't have anything until you have it injected with 4 turbos and a supercharger!

I saw that thing at a show a couple years ago- the guys girlfriend saw me trying to follow the plumbing on it as it didn't make a lot of sense- she laughed and said yeah, pretty much stock engine with a lot of hoohaa hung on it- he wouldn't start it up LOL
IIRC those "airboxes" on top were repurposed valve covers

This boat has been at Putah Creek, Berryessa a few times when I was there...If and When the boat did run it never went much faster than about 35 mph. Alot of noise, pomp and circumstance but no joy. I was almost embarrased for him but under all those turbos, boost controllers, popoff valves, bypasses, plumbing, fittings, bracketry, ect. lay a small block Chevy... I got over that feeling very quickly.

[MeanGene]

And not much of an SBC- girlfriend hinted at a pretty stock engine with a little cam. Guy was pretty pompous, but wouldn't start it up, and got real huffy when asked about the questionable "plumbing" LOL- good candidate for a Thumper aka Poser cam

[machoneman]

He's probably got a tiny you-know-what too.

Hey, I meant camshaft......LOL! 

[RJP]

And not much of an SBC- girlfriend hinted at a pretty stock engine with a little cam. Guy was pretty pompous, but wouldn't start it up, and got real huffy when asked about the questionable "plumbing" LOL- good candidate for a Thumper aka Poser cam

I met him a couple of times at PCR....Wasn't friendly at all. But then again if I had that thing and it ran the way it did I'd be hatin' the world too.

[fe66comet]

Instead of turbo he should have invested in bigger boat paddles LOL.

[BB-63]

He should have named it "snail bait".

[Ford428CJ]

Aero chargers used to be junk but I haven't seen one in years.

The reason you see variable vane turbos on diesel and not gas engines is usually they can't handle the egts.

Thats not correct. 1250 on your EGT's for both gas and diesel would run all day long. Anything above that would melt them both down! The reason why they are on diesels is to get rid of the turbo lag and get that 8,000lbs pick up moving. Not as critical for a gas engine.  Or they do a compound set up in a diesel for the same reason.

[BH107]

And not much of an SBC- girlfriend hinted at a pretty stock engine with a little cam. Guy was pretty pompous, but wouldn't start it up, and got real huffy when asked about the questionable "plumbing" LOL- good candidate for a Thumper aka Poser cam

I met him a couple of times at PCR....Wasn't friendly at all. But then again if I had that thing and it ran the way it did I'd be hatin' the world too.

Yeah, from what I heard the owner was FOS. In his ad when he sold the boat, it stated that it was a testbed for his Bonneville program and it evolved into what it was. He claimed he never raced it or ran it hard, just putted around with it.

In any case, he sold the boat without the engine and it is currently sitting in the space next to my shop waiting for a real twin turbo engine to be installed.

[RJP]

And not much of an SBC- girlfriend hinted at a pretty stock engine with a little cam. Guy was pretty pompous, but wouldn't start it up, and got real huffy when asked about the questionable "plumbing" LOL- good candidate for a Thumper aka Poser cam

I met him a couple of times at PCR....Wasn't friendly at all. But then again if I had that thing and it ran the way it did I'd be hatin' the world too.

Yeah, from what I heard the owner was FOS. In his ad when he sold the boat, it stated that it was a testbed for his Bonneville program and it evolved into what it was. He claimed he never raced it or ran it hard, just putted around with it.

In any case, he sold the boat without the engine and it is currently sitting in the space next to my shop waiting for a real twin turbo engine to be installed.

"FOS"? Not familiar with that one....but I bet I'll slap my forehead when you define. I didn't know he sold the boat but I haven't been involved since the BLM kicked out all the resorts at Berryessa when their leases were up. Very few places to go with a V-drive anymore.

[jayb]

Full Of ... 

I can hear your hand smacking your forehead from here LOL!

[RJP]

Full Of ... 

I can hear your hand smacking your forehead from here LOL!

Damn....shoulda known....and now I have a big red mark on my forehead. 

[Joe-JDC]

Lady I know went to see a Doctor because she was having terrible abdominal pains, and nothing she could do was helping.  After extensive questioning and a thorough exam, he told her her problem was she was FOS.  She stammered and asked how long she had to live, and the Doctor just grinned.  He was being polite, and gave her a perscription.  She was worried, and called her husband and told him the bad news.  He just smacked his forehead, and said for her to get her perscription.  The druggist was kind to her, and quietly explained what the medicine was for, and she turned red in the face for two weeks.  LOL.  Joe-JDC.

[RJP]

Lady I know went to see a Doctor because she was having terrible abdominal pains, and nothing she could do was helping.  After extensive questioning and a thorough exam, he told her her problem was she was FOS.  She stammered and asked how long she had to live, and the Doctor just grinned.  He was being polite, and gave her a perscription.  She was worried, and called her husband and told him the bad news.  He just smacked his forehead, and said for her to get her perscription.  The druggist was kind to her, and quietly explained what the medicine was for, and she turned red in the face for two weeks.  LOL.  Joe-JDC.

Very common affliction that FOS.....Seems to be much more common in the Washington DC area but its too bad there aren't any pills to alleviate their suffering.