Author Topic: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2  (Read 16807 times)

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jayb

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The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« on: June 02, 2014, 08:13:29 PM »
I have to chalk this week up as another frustrating one, where I spent a pretty fair amount of time working on this project but really didn't get a lot accomplished.  Over the weekend I spent way more time than I expected doing more machining for the front mounted parts of the engine.  My dry sump gear arbor needed to be shortened, and the little bracket that holds the crank sensor seemed to take forever to machine.  Plus I had forgotten that I had used some washers to space out the alternator pulley that goes on the crank, so I had to machine a donut to replace those.  Pretty much took me all day Saturday, and Sunday morning to get all that done.  Here are a couple of pictures of the crank sensor bracket, and how it looks mounted on the engine:







Next I made up the dry sump oil lines that go to the pan; here's a picture of those:



After that was done I was FINALLY able to flip the engine right side up again, and start thinking about installing the intake manifold.  Of course, pulling it off the shelf it was pretty dirty, and so I had to pull it all apart and get it cleaned up before I could put it on the engine.  Here's a picture of the lower part of the intake, just sitting in place:



Here's a shot down one of the runners:



Pretty straight shot to the valve, that's for sure.  As I was inspecting this whole thing I realized that there were going to be some modifications that I wanted to make to this manifold, based on what I've learned about sheet metal intakes since I built this one back in 2010.  By the way, any suggestions from you guys on how much plenum volume I should use for this manifold?  I'm following the rule of thumb that you should have one cubic inch of plenum volume for each cubic inch of engine displacement on a sheet metal intake like this, but one of the modifications I'm planning is some spacer plates that go between the plenum top and the intake base, to increase plenum volume if necessary.  To me, just looking at it, the plenum appears too small, or at least the top of the plenum box is too close to the top of the runners, but I really don't know for sure.  One thing I do know is that the runner lengths are off based on my intended RPM range, which is up to a redline of 7500 RPM.  But at this point there's not too much I can do about that, and in fact even if I started a new manifold from scratch it would be difficult to get runners that were 1.5" or 2.0" longer without tipping them way up, so that the air would have to bend going into the port.  At the time I built the manifold I didn't want to do that, so I'm living with a less than ideal runner length to keep a straight shot at the port.  Here's a couple of pictures of the manifold top in place:





Those throttle bodies are rated at 1170 cfm each; just like two Dominators!  Coming in from the front makes the tall induction system work with my hood scoop, but I'm sure that I'm leaving power on the table without having the normal Dominator carbs or throttle bodies on top of the plenum.  I'm hoping this doesn't cost me too much power.  I guess we'll see on the dyno.

I should be able to get the modifications I want made to the intake this week, so that hopefully this engine will finally get mounted on the dyno next weekend.  Then I've got a bunch of wiring in front of me before I can run it.  It's June already, and Drag Week is only 3 months away!  I need to get this engine running...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2014, 08:50:48 PM »
Jay, shoot me if I'm wrong but.....

-many theories and formulas abound on runner length, wave speed, ad infinitum. 

-yet, when Wilson's and Berry's custom intake experts say "make it equal to the engine's CID", I pay attention.

Read it here.  http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/engine/tech-feature-custom-racing-intake-manifolds/

I'd not go smaller than the engine size the first time around. Don't know if you'd experiment either later on with plenum stuffers to alter the volume while dyno testing. Should be easy to make a Brodix like "turtle" or two, stuff same inside and give it a spin!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bro-dt301?seid=srese1&gclid=CIXst_HL3L4CFagWMgodIAwAyw
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 10:38:20 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

Cyclone03

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2014, 03:14:58 AM »
Nice work as usual.

I don't know if you welcome QC from afar but I'm going to take a chance.

The front oil pick up line is rubbing the pan , I know it's not a 100,000mile cammer but an easy fix now , and a pisser at 9pm in a thunderstorm on the side of I 70.

What's that saying about 90% of a project taking 10% of the time....?

Lance
Lance H

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2014, 09:03:21 AM »
Jay, shoot me if I'm wrong but.....

-many theories and formulas abound on runner length, wave speed, ad infinitum. 

-yet, when Wilson's and Berry's custom intake experts say "make if equal to the engine's CID", I pay attention.

Read it here.  http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/engine/tech-feature-custom-racing-intake-manifolds/

I'd not go smaller than the engine size the first time around. Don't know if you'd experiment either later on with plenum stuffers to alter the volume while dyno testing. Should be easy to make a Brodix like "turtle" or two, stuff same inside and give it a spin!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bro-dt301?seid=srese1&gclid=CIXst_HL3L4CFagWMgodIAwAyw

Yes, the plenum volume is set up as equal to the displacement now, but the inside of the plenum has a fair number of sharp corners that makes me think that additional plenum volume would help address.  Anyway, I'm going to try adding plenum volume on the dyno and see what happens.  Thanks for the link, that was very informative.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2014, 09:05:31 AM »
Nice work as usual.

I don't know if you welcome QC from afar but I'm going to take a chance.

The front oil pick up line is rubbing the pan , I know it's not a 100,000mile cammer but an easy fix now , and a pisser at 9pm in a thunderstorm on the side of I 70.

What's that saying about 90% of a project taking 10% of the time....?

Lance

I looked at that and didn't think much of it, but you are right, I should wrap the line with something to minimize rubbing on the pan.  It would be just my luck to have the stainless steel braid saw through the aluminum somewhere in the middle of nowhere...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone03

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2014, 10:29:20 AM »
It is always the middle of no where , maybe make the hose 1/2" longer ? It has the look of bending at the fittings. 
Lance H

machone

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 08:12:29 PM »
Maybe put a right angle bend on the pan side facing forward?

cjshaker

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2014, 12:51:51 AM »
As short and thick as that line is, I doubt it even moves much, if at all. But if it doesn't pass a "wiggle" test, I've used heater/radiator hose and zip ties bunches of times at work to protect chemical sprayer hoses that are subjected to high amounts of vibration and rubbing. Not pretty, but it works fine, is cheap and easily replaceable.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2014, 07:09:16 AM »
I've got some black cloth header wrap that I was thinking of using for that, with zip ties to hold it in place.  Same principle as the rubber hose.  I'm sure it will work fine...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone03

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2014, 10:02:10 AM »
Jay will this one go over 1000hp ?
Lance H

AlanCasida

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2014, 12:24:50 PM »
Very nice, Jay! I'm guessing that alternator bracket is the only OEM FE part on that motor.  :)

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2014, 03:16:32 PM »
Jay will this one go over 1000hp ?

Well, I hope so, but with .720" lift cams that may be pushing it.  If I had cams that were equivalent to the one in my high riser, with around .830" lift, I'd feel more confident...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone03

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2014, 02:54:10 AM »
Very nice, Jay! I'm guessing that alternator bracket is the only OEM FE part on that motor.  :)

See it is a stock motor...
Lance H

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2014, 09:26:48 AM »
Very nice, Jay! I'm guessing that alternator bracket is the only OEM FE part on that motor.  :)

Well, there's also the oil slinger...   ;D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone03

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2014, 09:31:57 AM »
Very nice, Jay! I'm guessing that alternator bracket is the only OEM FE part on that motor.  :)

Well, there's also the oil slinger...   ;D

Production ready , who says a SOHC is out of reach. LOL
Lance H

cobracammer

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2014, 09:37:20 AM »
There is actually a guy now re-popping the alternator brackets for 427 SOHC motors out of Georgia.  I picked one up last week.  He is selling on eBay, but I don't believe anywhere else.  Its a pretty solid quality piece. :)
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

TomP

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2014, 10:05:59 PM »
I like plenum volume small. I think it makes for better throttle response. A dual plane intake works without a shoebox sized plenum so will single planes.

machoneman

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2014, 08:32:54 AM »
More on plenum volume, this time from Darin Morgan back in '05, currently Ford's Pro Stock engine designer:

Re: Plenum Volume

Postby Darin Morgan ยป Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:37 am

BRENT FAY wrote:
Plenum volume- what would be a good starting point as to know if you have enough? Measure volume of intake tract and divide the plenum by 4 (single 4 single plane intake or even tunnel ram) to end up with at least the volume of one cyl. or more if VE is say 110%? Or would you want a certain distance to the center opening of intake tract to throttle plates to keep fuel hitting plenum floor? Or you just keep adding carb spacers until carb loses it signal strength. Has anyone put a window in the side of plenum or int. tract near the opening to observe the A/F flow (Bill Jones?) on a running engine. On the intakes Jean Dittmer did for me he said to add a 1/2 in. spacer to make up for volume after reworking plenum floor. Or should one take a bunch spacers to track and do A B A B B C B C test. I dont have a dyno.... Just wondering, Brent

Plenum volume is interrelated to so many other variables such as, Engine size and rpm. Engines indented use such as Drag Racing, oval track, truck tractor pulling, boat racing, off shore boat racing and does it have an automatic transmission or five speed. These are all questions that need to be asked before deciding on how large the carbs and plenum should be. Its also the questions I ask when designing the manifold itself. If your asking for a magic number or formulas for any given engine, it does not exist. Its one of the last tuning factors we explore on the dyno. Its also very easy to get the plenum to large when chasing power numbers on the dyno! You can get a plenum way to big if you just look at power numbers on the dyno. Then, when you take it to the track the engine wont recover on the shifts and wont accelerate very well. An AED competition eliminator engine is good example. They have a sheet metal single four barrel manifold. On the dyno you can just keep stacking vertical spacers under the carb and the engine will continue to make more power. I have seen 7 one inch spacers make a lot of power on the dyno but the engine would lay on the converter and not recover. The farther you get the carbs from the runners, the more the signal suffers. There is a magic spot on every manifold as far as carb height goes. The track has the final word on that.
Darin Morgan
-Induction Research and Development
-EFI Calibration and Tuning
Reher Morrison Racing Engines
1120 Enterprise Place
Arlington Texas 76001
Phone 817-467-7171
Cell 682-559-0321
http://www.rehermorrison.com
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Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2014, 08:57:51 AM »
That's interesting information, Bob, but it relates to carbs, not EFI.  I think an EFI sheet metal intake like mine is a whole different animal, since you don't have to worry about a vacuum signal to the carbs to ensure proper fuel delivery.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2014, 09:17:22 AM »
Quite true!

I thought Darin's statement though that "no magic formula exists" was on the mark. Experimentation (and having the time, $$$ and discipline to do so) is seemingly the key. 
Bob Maag

cdmbill2

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2014, 10:06:34 AM »
When the Wilson guys did my manifold, we talked about volume and their CNC program for the cast Trick Flow tunnel ram was created with my heads and and the flow numbers we had from the devlopment process. As is it's about 112% of CID. We had to guess a bit at operating RPM as that version had never been together before. The big deal according to them was the runner inlet shape which in turn was dictated by the casting thickness.

I like the 'hump' idea for adding volume. Good luck this weekend!

My427stang

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2014, 11:41:31 AM »
That's interesting information, Bob, but it relates to carbs, not EFI.  I think an EFI sheet metal intake like mine is a whole different animal, since you don't have to worry about a vacuum signal to the carbs to ensure proper fuel delivery.

EFI and carbs certainly display the effects differently, but port length, plenum size, and intake design certainly makes a difference.  A couple examples are Dodge small blocks in the 90s and SBFs, they had long runners if varying design to keep torque and velocity up in all throttle positions.

Look at the Ford manifolds, they certainly could come up with a cheaper design for mass production than this. 



However, those long runners with a big plenum allowed a stable fast cylinder fill.  Less runner, more plenum, drive the peaks up just like a carbed car, longer runner, less plenum, response goes up.

I agree through, less worry about carb signal but the air is still doing the same thing, especially important on road course cars.  Also, no doubt packaging is important, so if yours flows the number it needs and has a decent plenum (which it does) and fits the car, runner length is less critical for a drag car IMHO
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cdmbill2

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2014, 08:59:44 PM »
Runner length is critical on a drag race motor, but, 98% of us don't get to play with runner length and shape as well as plenum volume except at the most coarse manifold swap level. That said I know of three, now four EFI Drag Week style engines that have picked up across the board with a tunnel ram. Narrow band, high RPM WOT only makes for a different set of choices.

cdmbill2

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2014, 09:00:59 PM »
But, the question today is cam phasing, do you know where yours is?

jayb

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2014, 11:02:19 PM »
LOL Bill, after today I know where mine is!  I think...   ;)
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

My427stang

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2014, 11:22:26 PM »
But, the question today is cam phasing, do you know where yours is?

I am just a knuckle dragging wedge owner...one cam, and I know exactly where it sits :)  If I could find a set of heads that flowed like those SOHCs...

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cdmbill2

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Re: The Road to Drag Week 2014 - June 2
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2014, 11:32:37 PM »
Me too, on the wedge front, but sometimes we have to test our assumptions about those things we take for granted. In a months time I'll have my 598 on the pump and we will be looking at cam phasing even though it it just a conventional single cam, push rod antique.

I'd never really worried about it and today we learned that stuff moves around move than we knew.