Author Topic: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!  (Read 775903 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1845 on: February 06, 2017, 11:19:17 PM »
The FITech system is gaining fast in popularity, I am considering using one on my 445.  However, let me know what you want for the FAST system.  I don't need two TBs, but might open things up for a later intake swap and/or Megasquirt upgrade.

However, I question their regulator discussion more as technique than a requirement.  If I read what you wrote correctly, any of the setups you described will produce the same pressure at the injector.  However, more importantly,  I thought the FITech had pressure regulators already installed in each TB?

If it does, and it should, you run line pressure to the input, no additional regulator, and then the other side of the TB just dumps to return, I am not sure why they'd want two regulators (or three actually with 2x TBs) in the system?  There should be no issue with dumping the excess pressure, all I can imagine is that they want to help you use your current system because the FITech can also run deadhead which means no additional lines to the TBs.  Whichever you choose, no big deal, but multiple regulators seems odd to me.

That being said, I think you will find some cool stuff with the timing control.  I crank my 489 at 10 BTDC, and then it immediately goes to 20 on fire up.  Allows the idle vacuum to be even higher, but no evils of starter kickback. Additionally, you can tweak cruise timing which also helps at low load.  All good stuff.
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cobracammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1165
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1846 on: February 06, 2017, 11:29:04 PM »
Hey Ross,
You are correct.  The TB's do have internal regulators, but the tech said my dual pump setup is a little too strong.  The external regulator was to lower the pressure going in ( at which point the internal would lower it a bit more to the necessary pressure).  I will definately get back to you on a price for the fast Dual quad setup!!  Thanks again.
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

newfalconowner

  • Guest
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1847 on: February 07, 2017, 04:47:58 AM »
i had gremlins with my system for awhile, non starts, errors,  then run awesome.. replaced a lot of parts, msd box, distributor, sensors,etc.. ended up sending the ecu back to get checked out,, and the processor in it was bad.. warranty replacing it so should have it back next week.. hopefully it works a lot better.. I will take your new handheld lol :)

RIck

cobracammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1165
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1848 on: February 07, 2017, 05:04:51 PM »
Hi Ross.  I sent you a private message
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1849 on: February 18, 2017, 08:08:39 AM »
I talked to FITech this week.  I have to say I wasn't overly enthused. 

I wanted to know why they said you needed to run the external regulator, so I asked some generic questions that sort of shaped the conversation.

They said, up to 800 hp you don't need to go external.  Which seems odd to me, because the only issue I would see would be fuel flow and creating a dead head with the same inlet shouldn't change that, and actually, dead head systems can be fussy, and that is what they are essentially telling you to do from the injector's perspective post regulator.  Regardless, that's what they said

The part I didn't like was that they said that their laptop program is IN the handheld and can be only downloaded THROUGH the handheld, additionally, he hinted, but couldn't say specifically, if the program was any different.  What he did say is he could "see no reason anyone would want to do that" the handheld does anything anyone would need. 

They also said there was no way I could see the laptop program, not even a Beta, a video, or a download as a favor.  So I am a bit put off, this shouldn't be a secret.

The system may be awesome, but I am leery when their tech guys give answers like that.  I hope it works, but I was not very confident of predicting tunability or even understanding what it could do after talking to their tech.

BTW, if/when someone buys one that has the ability to download the laptop program, if it builds ZIP file that you could share, I'd love to see it
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 08:11:53 AM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

2ndgear

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1850 on: February 18, 2017, 09:09:01 AM »
FYI  I also talked to FITech many of different times with some of the same questions that you already asked. Not beating on them but every time I get a different tech, which is find. The same questions are asked and different answers, so that tells me 2 things is 1 they dont have enough time with this unit yet or I have not reached the right person yet. I read all I mean all of the questions and answers on there site and all of the reviews on face book and they do have some growing pains. It seems as of now more people are unhappy then happy with getting the tune right but at the end with a lot of phone calls they seem to get it dialed it. Maybe if a person could get into the laptop to fine tune the system may be more friendly. Just my thoughts. There seems to be a lot of problems with there remote fuel commander in which when using this you dont need a return line, just a vent line. The system seem to be easy to install and that is more then I need for a street car. (445 in 69 stang) I am on the fence yet but I did look into the Holley Sniper and so far not to many reviews yet. That system is quite new yet. About the same money. Less boost (if needed) and needs a return line installed in the gas tank. Also with the FITech you need to put the oxygen sender in the header or just outside of the collector and have min. of 18 inches of exhaust flow after the sender to get a correct reading on the air fuel ratio of your tune ? Whats with that? I got to give there system a little more time to get over some of there growing pains. Hope this helps some. This is what I found out and just my opinions on this. Will keep digging.

Leny Mason

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1851 on: February 22, 2017, 08:50:21 AM »
Hi,I have the Holley EFI I have not run it yet but there is only one person for information Andy Star, so  that makes me feel better he get's to know you and your wants he is very smart on these Jay knows him or has talked to him, give him a call see what you think. Leny Mason

cobracammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1165
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1852 on: February 26, 2017, 04:02:08 PM »
Hey all.  Been a few months, but I am back down in FL now and took a look at the Saleen.  If you all remember, I recently changed out the intake manifold gasket due to the small oil seepage.  The oil would slowly accumulate bwtween the front backing plate, the block and the intake manifold (this is a small triangle space right next to the distributor).  From there, the oil would drip down onto the drivers side (and supposedly the passenger side) making a mess and causing the smoke issue.

So long story short, after the manifold gasket swap, I stopped the oil leak!!!.......  but now coolant has taken its place!  Same small amounts in the same spot!!!  LOL  After consulting Doc-Brown, I am just going to re-do the intake manifold gasket again.  My other thought is this....  before the car started smoking, it ran beautifully with the Fast EZ efi (at idle).

Then after the smoking began, problems arose.  I am sure with all of the leaking oil dripping down into the header joints, the O2 sensor must be black and oily!  Perhaps my idle problems are due to the O2 sensor becoming fouled with the oil residue?  Not sure why it runs well in closed loop (as I am unsure of the O2 sensors part when the system is closed loop) (?)

Also, I wanted to quickly clarify the external regulator conversation I had with FAST.  I went back over my notes and this was the issue:

I have a return on the fuel system along with Dual walbro fuel pumps (total at about 510 LPH).  I told the tech that I did NOT want their fuel command center (No room for it!).  He said to be safe, keep my external fuel regulator, run the pumps to the external fuel regulator, then run a line from the external fuel pressure regulator to the EFI- (Which has its own fuel pressure regulator built in (Redundancy?)), finally, keep my fuel return line from the external fuel regulator to the return on the fuel tank (exactly like it is now).  I think it was the fact that I was not going to use their fuel command center and I still wanted to keep my fuel return line.

Also, In speaking with Doug today over at precision oil pumps (gasket order!), he was saying that Robert Pond has been working on his own EFI system and that it's really a nice piece!  I went to Mr. Ponds website, but its not on there.  It might be worth a call.

So here is the current plan.....

1.  Redo the intake gasket over again and get the oil and coolant to stay inside!

2. Hook up the vacuum gauge

3. Pull the O2 sensor and see if I can clean it without wrecking it (or possibly just replace).

4.  Try the FAST efi system again if all above steps go accordingly.  If EFI ststem does not work, then new EFI system!

Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1853 on: February 26, 2017, 08:59:18 PM »
Sounds good, but just to clarify, their command center has NO place on anything that has an EFI pump.

Their command center is designed to use a low pressure carburetor fuel pump to fill a reservoir, in fact, that reservoir uses a Holley needle and seat to maintain level.  Then the command center pump feeds the high pressure to the EFI.  It's for carbed vehicles to be able to run their EFI without an EFI tank or pump

Because you have EFI from the factory, there is no reason to have a command center, and I stand firm that they somehow are recommending a fix to a problem you don't have with your setup. 

If I were installing the FITech, I'd use their regulators, or I would block their output and dead head it from a junction, but I'd be hard pressed to have 3 regulators in a system, hoping the fuel pressure stayed where I wanted it
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Drew Pojedinec

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2116
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1854 on: February 26, 2017, 09:16:10 PM »
Man I love carburetors.....

machoneman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3853
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1855 on: February 27, 2017, 04:07:17 PM »
Me too!  ;)
Bob Maag

BH107

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1856 on: February 28, 2017, 01:15:30 PM »
Hey all.  Been a few months, but I am back down in FL now and took a look at the Saleen.  If you all remember, I recently changed out the intake manifold gasket due to the small oil seepage.  The oil would slowly accumulate bwtween the front backing plate, the block and the intake manifold (this is a small triangle space right next to the distributor).  From there, the oil would drip down onto the drivers side (and supposedly the passenger side) making a mess and causing the smoke issue.

So long story short, after the manifold gasket swap, I stopped the oil leak!!!.......  but now coolant has taken its place!  Same small amounts in the same spot!!!  LOL  After consulting Doc-Brown, I am just going to re-do the intake manifold gasket again.  My other thought is this....  before the car started smoking, it ran beautifully with the Fast EZ efi (at idle).

Then after the smoking began, problems arose.  I am sure with all of the leaking oil dripping down into the header joints, the O2 sensor must be black and oily!  Perhaps my idle problems are due to the O2 sensor becoming fouled with the oil residue?  Not sure why it runs well in closed loop (as I am unsure of the O2 sensors part when the system is closed loop) (?)

Also, I wanted to quickly clarify the external regulator conversation I had with FAST.  I went back over my notes and this was the issue:

I have a return on the fuel system along with Dual walbro fuel pumps (total at about 510 LPH).  I told the tech that I did NOT want their fuel command center (No room for it!).  He said to be safe, keep my external fuel regulator, run the pumps to the external fuel regulator, then run a line from the external fuel pressure regulator to the EFI- (Which has its own fuel pressure regulator built in (Redundancy?)), finally, keep my fuel return line from the external fuel regulator to the return on the fuel tank (exactly like it is now).  I think it was the fact that I was not going to use their fuel command center and I still wanted to keep my fuel return line.

Also, In speaking with Doug today over at precision oil pumps (gasket order!), he was saying that Robert Pond has been working on his own EFI system and that it's really a nice piece!  I went to Mr. Ponds website, but its not on there.  It might be worth a call.

So here is the current plan.....

1.  Redo the intake gasket over again and get the oil and coolant to stay inside!

2. Hook up the vacuum gauge

3. Pull the O2 sensor and see if I can clean it without wrecking it (or possibly just replace).

4.  Try the FAST efi system again if all above steps go accordingly.  If EFI ststem does not work, then new EFI system!

Not sure about Pond, maybe he is working with Borla on their new setup. The Borla one has been making its rounds at a few shows, but retail price is close to $10k so its going to be a hard sell!


babybolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1857 on: February 28, 2017, 02:26:04 PM »
I've always use Hylomar on both side of most gaskets and then pop in two of the compressed "stuff" pellets in the radiator to avoid leaks.  Seems to work for me.  On the plus side, years later the parts come apart better with the Hylomar.  I really, really dislike scraping silicone.

Joey120373

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1858 on: March 02, 2017, 03:21:06 AM »
Not sure I can add anything that might help with your tuning issues, but I'll try.

Apologies in advance if I am repeating other posts,  man this is a long thread....

First, closed vs open loop .

Generally speaking, when the ECU is in closed loop it is using the O2 sensor to adjust the air/fuel ratio.
When in open loop, it still can see the O2 sensor, but it doesn't do anything with that info.
That's about the long and short of it.

Open loop is there to give the sensor time to heat up ( it needs to be around 750C to operate ) and also because you purposely want the engine rich on cold starts.

 Now obviously, a self tuning system can only self tune when it is in closed loop, that's when it knows it's getting valid info from the O2. During open loop, it's still a trial and error thing where you have to tell it to go richer or leaner, think adjusting the choke ona carb.

If there were a "self tuning" carb that used a modern computer, the computer would dial in the jets for you, but you would still need to pop the air cleaner and twist the choke stove to get the cold starts just right,if that makes any sense.

So, the fact that your engine runs fine once it goes into closed loop tells me that your air fuel ratio is off. I'm not familiar with your system, so I don't know what parameters you have control over.
But I would look for a cold start, after start, cold compensation, warmup enrichment or choke type setting, and try leaning it out. If it gets worse, then fatten it up.

I can speak from a lot of experience here, cold stars are probably one of the most frustrating things to tune on a fuel injected motor, because you get one shot at it, then the engine is warm and doesn't act the same way on subsistent partially warm starts. You have to let it cool all the way down and try again.

As far as the O2 getting damaged by oil, generally is got to be a massive oil burner to hurt the O2, the element inside sensor is heated and glows red hot within about 30 seconds of start up, so it does a pretty good job of burning off what oil might get on it. Now coolant in the exhaust is another matter, that will kill an O2. So my advice is, if your O2 sensor readings look good, your sensor is probably just fine.

More advanced systems will let you add or subtract ignition timing based on engine temp, not sure yours lets you do this, but that generally only adds or subtracts a few degrees either way, more advance when it's cold, might retard it a few degrees if it gets really hot. From what you describe i doubt it has anything to do with temp related timing adjustments.

Not sure if this helps, or is even leading you in the right direction, but I hope it does.

Joe
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 03:34:50 AM by Joey120373 »

cobracammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1165
    • View Profile
Re: My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!
« Reply #1859 on: March 04, 2017, 06:59:31 PM »
Funny thing, but I was actually in the process 5 years ago in getting a Auto Cad person to try and make one of those "Borla intake manifolds" above, but in order to use the Gene Greenberg (?) 58mm oversized Weber Carbs he produces.  After meeting with 2 Auto Cad people, taking all the measurements (off of my Robert Pond intake for the angles and port alignment, and speaking with a foundry......I got too overwhelmed by the $$ and the number of units necessary just to make one run.

I think that the SOHC with 4 separate 58mm Webers on top looks awesome.  I have a stick drive which I have pictures of the Weber intake for a SOHC that sold for $10,000.00 on ebay years back.  The seller took detailed photos from every angle and top and bottom.......  One day if the right tech comes along, I would love to have one prototyped (or 3D printed?)  LOL

Keep you all posted, Gaskets are on their way, TA-31 is already in hand, and afterwards, as Joe stated, I may give the FAST EFI 1 more go and try to alter the cold start fuel. (Since it runs perfectly once warm already).  Otherwise......  New EFI system!
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears