My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!

[Barry_R]

You made it around the block - congrats!

At about this point Jay would be taking it off to drag week!   

[Nightmist66]

You made it around the block - congrats!

At about this point Jay would be taking it off to drag week!   

LOL! A quick spin around the block qualifies as a proper test drive before any major event and/or road trip.

[cjshaker]

HOORAY!! Congrats on your first real drive. Temps are sounding good so far.
Nothing says you have to head long distance from your house. Just drive it up and down streets/blocks near your house. That'll build the confidence to take it further each time. Then you'll be busting U-joints in no time...lol

[cjshaker]

You made it around the block - congrats!

At about this point Jay would be taking it off to drag week!   

Now THAT was funny!!!! And dead on

[jayb]

You made it around the block - congrats!

At about this point Jay would be taking it off to drag week!   

You're not kidding, he's way ahead of me!  I've loaded them on the trailer for Drag Week with zero street miles, and only a couple burnouts in the driveway...

[Nightmist66]

You made it around the block - congrats!

At about this point Jay would be taking it off to drag week!   

LOL! A quick spin around the block qualifies as a proper test drive before any major event and/or road trip.

Scratch that. A test drive is overrated, a couple quick burnouts will suffice!

[My427stang]

So when is the next escapade?

And what is not working right now?  Power steering? Brakes? etc

[Nightmist66]

Jason, if your brakes still feel soft try re-bleeding them. Soft would indicate air, so mechanical not electrical. If you had new brakes installed on rear and brake hoses/lines, most likely a little air in it yet. Start at RR, LR, RF, and finish with LF. A vacuum bleeeder works fairly well, but pumping and holding while cracking loose is efficient also. Another method I found works well is get a bottle or jar and a hose (preferably clear) hooked to the bleeder and have it submegerged in the container maybe about 1/3 full of fresh brake fluid. Push pedal down quickly and release slowly several times while bleeder stays open, this forces air out quickly and allows some fluid that was displaced to re-enter without the addition of any more air. I have done this process by myself before, but is a little easier with a helper.

I'll bet that steering put up a  fight w/out the power assist. It is much easier to steer manual steering if it is set up for it, unlike power w/out the assist. Sounds like your making good progress, keep it up! 200° sounds very reasonable. Mine usually runs at 200-205ish maybe 210 with an EMP Stuart high flow 195 t-stat, factory rad., water wetter, Ford Racing 16lb cap, and mechanical clutch fan w/shroud.

[foxlincoln]

So you guys will think I am off on this.But think about this,most factory engines run 2 bypass systems of about 5/8 hose One for the bypass hose and one for the heater.This to allow the engine to warm up evenly.Coolant is always circulating in the motor when its running. I have seen big block chevy guys take of their bypass hose off only to put it back on,because it would puke coolant every time they would shut it off. What is the cooling system setup now?Thermostat installed and where?You have all the good stuff.It has to be something simple.Jay what do you run as far as thermostat,what temps do you run.

It is simple, its a fresh motor jam packed into a tight body with big uncoated headers sitting in Southern Florida idling....and it does have a hole drilled as a bypass allow some movement.

I do understand that you are concerned with the amount of bypass, but by the time it hits thermostat temp, a bypass is not required, matter of fact, many vehicles, including 351C, Powerstrokes and other of all brands have a lower disk that closes off the bypass once the thermostat opens.

In the end, he may indeed have to louver a hood or put a hood scoop to allow it to vent heat when not moving, but he just isn't there yet.  Installing the headers before coating, bad belts, loose bolts, small radiator, insufficient fans all are explainable, now is the time to break it in and see what it really does.

We still don't know if it will boil over with the new belt, radiator and fans, so it's hard to say there is even an issue.

I can't stress enough that checking every nut and bolt, every fluid level, and having a plan will relax him and ensure he doesn't have another bracket, bolt, you name it falling off.  After that, he needs to let the car talk to him.

Brent has a good point, I personally think that ring seal will be OK, but eventually it won't and like Brent said, time to get a load on it and let the computer work it's own magic

Ross,my point is if holes drilled in the thermostat would fix the problem why would manufactures design in a bypass system of some type.You mention the 351C, in 1972 I found out about what happens when the copper disc get dissolved in a caustic hot tank.We did not know it existed.Ford had over designed an internal bypass system and had to shut it down or water would only circulate in the block not radiator We install the motor in a 1972 Pinto,it took months before we figured out the disc was missing.The hole in the disc 7/8 of an inch.My main concern is about the aluminum block which is very sensitive to being evenly heated .I have 4.6 Cobra motor in a 1989 Mustang Hatchback and have read everything there is about the cooling system before going with factory system with a 1 inch bypass.
  In my day,all headers were painted unless you knew someone who worked where they did ceramic coating.Its just as hot up north if not more,we have higher humidity.Google says it 85 degrees im Miami as of 2:00 PM Sunday and 86 in Cincinatti.

[My427stang]

I am not against bypasses, I never eliminate one that has it, but the motor isn't overheating now...

I have lived all over the US from New England, to Nevada, and Florida and they all have their own cooling requirements.  Heck, I hadn't realized the need for airflow until I was stationed in Vegas where the pavement temp often exceeded 150!  My then 427 powered Mustang ran cool in Nebraska, but in Vegas it was not nearly as happy until I added fan.

In the end, I think the automakers put big bypasses (in the ones that had big bypasses) so that joe normal could pull out and stand on the throttle in a cold motor and not blow a heater core or squeal a belt.  Additionally, resistance to flow is not bad, it actually helps keep a bit of pressure to stop localized steaming on the cylinder liners, so it's hard to say that you need that water to flow that much.  I do feel that you need SOME bypass though to allow water to move, just not that much

As far as ceramics versus painted or uncoated headers, in my day we painted headers too, but they didn't control heat like ceramics do, and now that they are affordable, it's a blessing.  The difference on a Mustang like mine is night and day in the floorboards and underhood, for a couple hundred bucks it's foolish not to do it.  As a second benefit, they don't rust out if 4-5 years even on a truck that sees salt.

In the end, I don't disagree that an engine needs a bypass if it has a closed thermostat, but I disagree that having hot water bypass the radiator to any significant amount helps once the thermostat opens.  In the end, in my experience, as long as the thermostat doesn't end up steam or air bound, it is going to be fine

In the end, his temps are doing OK, he could always drill a bigger hole in the thermostat if he needed to, but I just don't see a need for the big bypass, as long as some flow allows the hot water to get to the thermostat, life is good, and likely a hole will do that better than a bypass that is located away from the thermostat

[foxlincoln]

Remember this: A very important lesson I learned many years ago as an apprentice in a manufacturing plant:

You will not see a hole, a bolt, a flange,a lip or any other part of a machine that does not serve a function worthy of it's cost.It either is serving a current function, or served to assist the manufacture of the part.You may see an unused threaded hole, but it is there for an optional attachment, and it was cheaper to drill and tap than to set up a separate line for the operation for every option, (like air conditioner bracket holes in head and block).

Every piece of the machine was vetted for cost vs benefit before it was implemented into the manufacturing process.

It is too expensive to make a useless part.Therefore, I am very hesitant to bypass or modify an existing design until I have analysed all of it's functions.Most of the time,the original design has it right, but there are always a few exceptions to every rule, but for the majority of the time, in the last 40 years, my mentor has been right

[My427stang]

We can disagree and still be great friends

This SOHC car is hardly as designed, an EFI SOHC with a degas bottle and electric fans....the list goes on.  Heck I am not sure if the SOHC was really designed for anything, regardless of its history, I think it was more of an engineering effort that turned into a race piece

However, I tend to agree with you.  You can't see me on from where you sit, but hundreds of builds, rebuilds, diesels, gas, truck, car, hell even train and power plant engines under my belt, I tend to be willing to shape things the way I want them.  Has it ever bitten me?  Not hard, but I learn something on every single one

You stated that you are leery unless you analyze...I get it and agree completely and hold myself to the exact same standards, please don't think I'd provide advice on a guess.  If I can't stand behind my recommendation and my name, I either won't offer advice, or if the person is stuck, I'll identify that I have an opinion or even a guess if no-one has an answer...but if I am doing that, the person knows it clearly.

In the end though, I totally respect your opinion, my experience just leads me to this answer.

[cobracammer]

I appreciate both points of view.

OK so today, I was able to fix the vacuum reference line from the fuel pressure regulator to the throttle body (Ported vacuum line).  This should stop the fuel pressure from bouncing around and stay at a solid 32 PSI.

Second, I have a vacuum pump and fittings that assist in bleeding brakes/ clutches.  I wanted to try and bleed the brakes again.  In the Saleen, the brakes and they hydraulic clutch share 1 reservoir.  I have a rubber plug that goes onto the reservoir and then I can put a vacuum on the reservoir to pull out the air.  An online tutorial says to put 20 "bars" vacuum on the reservoir for 1 minute, then release the vacuum and pump the brakes (and or clutch) about 10 times.  This process was to be repeated 3 times.

When I said soft brakes, I guess I should explain more.  The pedal was pretty firm....  its just that I really had to mash down on the brake pedal pretty hard to get the car to a complete stop.  Again, this was nerve wracking as I was only in 2nd gear.

Front brakes on a Saleen are 2 piston and the rear are 1 (Both are disc brakes).  When the Saleen engine was in the car, it stopped on a dime.....  Want to make sure I can still stop on a dime.

After going through this bleed procedure 3 times, I looked up where every fuse was for the brakes and ABS system.  All were in place and all were still good (not blown).  I am trying to think what else I can check before heading back out on a longer trip.  I live in an area where there are no long open roads.  For miles and miles in every direction, stop signs and traffic lights.  This is why stopping is now my new concern  LOL  now that cooling has been taken off my mind :0)

I am going to do a little more research to see if there was something I disconnected that was sort of a power assist to the brake booster? Again, there was a fashionable butt load of electrical in that Saleen (almost all was not re-used).  Everything is still there (which is why the engine bay looks so full of wires.  Once everything is exactly dialed in (and works perfectly), then removing all of the extra wiring/harnesses will be the order of the day.

Found this:
The brakes on the 2005 to 2009 Mustangs are fairly standard, with discs both front and rear.  The front calipers are dual piston, while the rear calipers have single pistons.  Four-wheel anti-lock brakes are standard on all models, and power assist is provided by a conventional vacuum booster.
Vacuum-assisted (or boosted) power brakes were used in Mustangs until 1996 when the huge 4.6L SOHC and DOHC V-8 engines filled the engine compartment to capacity, making it impossible to fit a vacuum booster between the engine and inner fender. Thus, Ford went to hydroboosted power brakes, which consume less space. Hydroboost gets its pressure from the power steering pump.

Read more: http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts/mump-0209-ford-mustang-brakes/ford-power-brakes.html#ixzz3d5r4H04x

One says vacuum and the other says hydro boost.  Since I dont have the P/S hooked up, im guessing Hydroboost.....  This will be another fun one to figure out.  LOL

[My427stang]

It should be real easy to tell the difference.  If hydroboost, it will have PS lines going to a little iron or aluminum manifold behind the master cylinder.

If its vacuum, it'll be a disc behind the master, usually 8 inches across-ish as a minimum.  I'll go back and look at your pics, but I am guessing it is a hydroboost based on the symptoms, if it was vacuum, you'd have a 3/8 vacuum line you'd need to hook up on the base of one of the TBs or to  the manifold

One question, you said "ported vacuum"   Ported vacuum is a vacuum line that is dead at idle and comes alive when you crack the throttle, manifold vacuum is always alive.  I'd expect you to be running manifold vacuum, did you just use the wrong term?

Edited: Hard to tell but it sure looks like you have a vacuum canister behind the master cylinder in this pic



If you do, the port at the 11 o'clock position needs manifold vacuum or you will have the problems you are describing. 

I am still looking though because I haven't found a perfectly clear pic yet

[Nightmist66]

I guess I misunderstood when you said "soft". +1 what Ross said. I can see the vacuum canister behind the master cylinder. You must have the hose routed to constant manifold vacuum or you will have problems as Ross stated. Also, have you checked what your vacuum is at an idle? It is possible you may not have sufficient vacuum. A few solutions is add a vacuum pump, ditch the vacuum booster and install manual master cylinder, or add a vacuum reservoir canister to hold a reserve of vacuum to supply the booster adequately.