My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!

[cobracammer]

I will definitely take care of cooling issue first. Also will definitely start over with a new tune and erase the old tune. I honestly appreciate your and everyones help

Again I have to say, i heard it run before it overheated 2 weeks ago and it sounded bad ass at 1000 RPM

Will definitely take one bite at a time starting with cooling

[WConley]

Jason -  Sounds like a plan.  We're all here to help, and believe me, we've been down that bumpy road on our own projects.

Remember that post I made before Christmas?

"Good luck Jason!  Now the fun part begins.  Just be ready for lots of little PITA issues that the guys here will help you through.

My father-in-law is an ex-Boeing director, and he still consults on the International Space Station.  He likes to say, "Hardware is the greatest teacher".

You're (and we're) going to learn a few things before this is done!"

Hang on for the ride.  The fact that this is so hard will make it taste all the sweeter when you are romping that car down the road.

- Bill

[My427stang]

Bill and the others

Look close at the diagram he has, IMO there is no way that there could be a thermostat in that lower hose housing in the diagram.  It would only see cold water (like Heo said perfectly) and therefore would behave EXACTLY like cobracammers car is.  The thermostat would not open and the car would boil over before hot water got to the bottom hose

So we know 2 things
1 - The diagram is for a standard flow
2 - The FE is standard flow

And can deduce one
- The thermostat cannot be on the bottom hose in his application

I'd add a thermostat (with a small hole drilled) up top, then put the Saleen manifold on the bottom without a thermostat, and see what happens

It will run cool IMHO, I doubt that will be an issue.  The question is, will the degas bottle work correctly.  I think so because it will be no different from the diagram

[My427stang]

BTW You are doing great, no snotty remarks, listening to advice, etc.  People love to help people like that, so don't sweat it.  The type of build you are doing is icing on the cake

Matter of fact, I will be in Orlando for 12 days, I tried to figure a way to get down to see you, but after being on the road for 10 months, Mrs Stang said some words I didnt know she knew   So we'll have to keep working via the web unless you tow it to the Disney parking lot

[cobracammer]

 Lol  I actually do remember that Bill.....  LOL  I kept telling my wife......  Building the engine (in retrospect) was the simple part  LOL

Thanks Ross.....  If I lived closer to Orlando I 100% would bring it to you  LOL  But sadly I am like 4 hours south of there.  I am going to do as stated above and pull the thermostat out of the Saleens housing on the bottom hose.  I will cut the flange off of the thermostat itself and put it back into the housing (I need the round lip of the thermostat itself in combination with a large o-ring to make the housing water tight.)

I am going to replace the the Galaxie thermostat (I believe I got a 190 degree one) back into the Cammer water neck.  I drilled 2 holes in it as instructed in a previous post.  Before I insert the thermostat, I will fill the block with coolant.  Once I have done that, Ill pop in the thermostat and tighten it back down.

I have the FAST harness for the fans (with its own relay).  I called yesterday and with a picture of the actual harness, I went over it with a technician.  The Single red wire does to the battery.  I will have to pick up an inline fuse (as per the tech) and place it between the harness and the battery.
Then, the red wire coming out of the relay goes to the black wires on the fans (+)  and the Pink wire will be 12V switched (which I will not toggle :0)    )

The green wire I was told is the ground (which would go to the Blue wire on the ECU harness which is Fan relay (ground connection).

The Fans ground wires will need to be grounded to the frame.

I think I read somewhere that the relay is supposed to trigger the ground connection, and ofcourse the tech got a little confused before he gave me an answer.  It seems to me from this set up that the fans would already be grounded (to the frame), and that when the ECU sends a signal, the relay is then supplying a (+) signal turning on the fans (But wiring is my least favorite thing to do- other than bathing is boiling coolant).  Below is a picture of the harness.  I just wanted to throw this out there:

[machoneman]

n/m

[machoneman]

Bill and the others

Look close at the diagram he has, IMO there is no way that there could be a thermostat in that lower hose housing in the diagram.  It would only see cold water (like Heo said perfectly) and therefore would behave EXACTLY like cobracammers car is.  The thermostat would not open and the car would boil over before hot water got to the bottom hose

So we know 2 things
1 - The diagram is for a standard flow
2 - The FE is standard flow

And can deduce one
- The thermostat cannot be on the bottom hose in his application

I'd add a thermostat (with a small hole drilled) up top, then put the Saleen manifold on the bottom without a thermostat, and see what happens

It will run cool IMHO, I doubt that will be an issue.  The question is, will the degas bottle work correctly.  I think so because it will be no different from the diagram

2X to 427's analysis. After seeing the diagram, he's right in that the t-stat can't on the bottom. This must be as Heo also stated the source of the overheating. If the T-stat never gets hot coolant on the backside, it can't open, hence the overheating.

Heck, just for a 'proof of concept" test you could take out the t-stat altogether and button up that t-stat housing. Add a big chuck of cardboard in front of the radiator, just like we northerners sometimes do in winter...just in case the engine does heat up correctly; have scissors handy to cut that board down if it does run hot and the fans don't kick in. Sitting still in a garage it should heat up. Or, you could fashion by hand a Moroso style t-state plate, to limit water flow through that housing with a cut-up flat piece of thin  aluminum sheet stock (beer can?) drilled for say a 1/2" to 5/8's hole, again just to test the idea. 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-63440?seid=srese1&gclid=CMmov9Ws1cUCFQYxaQodqmEAmA

[Nightmist66]

So obviously this is not exactly how it will work (Figure above), but I am still using the OEM thermostat housing, it still connects to the bottom of the radiator for coolant (IN), still pulls gas out of the top of the radiator (#1= degas tank and #2 is the hose that feeds additional coolant into the system (Its also how you will the coolant up in this car), and the thermostat (hopefully) opens to allow coolant into the Cammer engine water pump.  So this is what the thermostat housing looks like.....  Its actually not even a stock Mustang part, but seems like an aftermarket part that Saleen installs while building the car:



ok so I have this installed so the thermostat bottom (with the spring) is sitting down in this part of the housing: (See below)



The top of the thermostat is sitting up in this portion of the housing: (See below)



The degas tank supplied Coolant into the system down a hose and into this port on the housing (in the same area where hot coolant is sitting awaiting the thermostat to open): (See below)



There was an extra port on this housing that will not be used in my application, so I plugged it with a rubber expansion plug (sold at Autozone for just this reason): (See below)



And finally, this port below is connected to the bottom of the radiator.  It lets hot coolant (cooled by the fans/radiator already) into the housing in which the thermostat (bottom- with the spring) is housed.  Once it gets to 180 degrees, it opens letting coolant from the radiator (and some coolant from the degas tank to flow up into the Cammer engine water pump.  I removed the thermostat I had originally in the Cammer engine water neck so the water then flows freely around the engine, out the waterneck..... through the radiator, and assuming the thermostat in the Saleen housing, back through the water pump: (See below)




Sorry if this is overkill, but I want to make sure I am not boiled like a lobster ever again  LOL  Does this seem correct?

Hi Jason, just noticing you're routing on the hoses on t-stat housing. It appears to me you may have the inlet and outlet hoses reversed. The spring side of the t-stat as far as I know always faces the engine and is subjected to warm/hot coolant that acts on the wax pellet inside to open the valve. If this is facing the radiator with "cold" coolant coming in, how would the thermostat open? I would think that may be the problem that the thermostat isn't opening, and yes air is trapped in the system. Just my $0.02. Btw, I think that other port that is capped should be fine. Do you have some pics of your hose setup on the car?

[Nightmist66]

GM has been installing thermostats in the lower radiator hose/water pump inlets for a while now, they have done it on numerous 4, 6, and 8 cylinders. The impression I get for the reason is that it helps to stabilize the operation of the thermostat, less fluctuation in operation. Also if the hose switch deal doesn't work or you don't want to try it, I don't see why it wouldn't work to run the thermostat in the upper housing as others stated. Hope you get it all sorted out. It is a very cool project and should be very rewarding when settled.

http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media-full/Mobile%20Uploads/zr1waterflowcrop-1_zpspwgbianb.jpeg.html
http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media-full/Mobile%20Uploads/LS4_coolant_connections2_zpslnf6wuwq.jpeg.html

[My427stang]

To be in the lower hose it would have to be reverse flow, otherwise the hot water would never really get to the thermostat.  I would guess the Chevies are reverse flow?

ON EDIT - Chevy LT1 and all the later LS series are indeed reverse flow.  That's why the thermostat is there, always has to be on the outlet of the block, bot the inlet.  Reverse flow, down bottom, normal flow, up top

[cjshaker]

Isn't everything on a Chevy ass-backwards?

[Nightmist66]

From what I can tell the 4 and 6 cylinders are not reverse flow. In the bottom picture I linked it shows the cold side from the radiator going "in" the thermostat. It just seems confusing. Yes the LT1s are reverse flow for sure. I think the easiest thing may be to just put the t-stat in the upper housing.

"Reverse" flow cooling, most notably on the Gen 2 SBV8s (LT1, LT4, L99) fed coolant to the heads first. Coolant then flowed into the block and finally out of the engine. The coolant went through the thermostat twice, once on the way in and a second time, on the way out. On the way in, it heat controls the thermostat and on the way out, it's routed either to the radiator or back to the engine.

Neither the LT5 nor the Gen 3/4 V8 family have reverse flow cooling. They do, however, have the thermostats located at the engine coolant inlet rather than at the outlet.

The LT5 also has a coolant bypass that prevents coolant pressure from rupturing or the radiator at high rpm. There's a spring loaded valve that opens when the pressure differential across the radiator reaches a certain point. The open valve allows coolant flow to bypass the radiator.

The statement above that the LT5 had a form of reverse flow cooling that was later adapted to the Gen 2 V8s is not correct.
Quoted from corvetteactioncenter forum.

Also, in the diagram of the mustang coolant flow, that is different than what must be on the saleen because it does not have the thermostat housing assy. tied into the hoses like the other pictures of it from Mustangs and Fast Fords. The diagram of flow is the exact same setup that is on my daily driver '03 Crown Vic and the t-stat is in the small housing attached to the upper rad. hose.

http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media-full/Mobile%20Uploads/20150522_164511_zpslhgiqy01.jpg.html
http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media-full/Mobile%20Uploads/20150522_164335_zps0xsasgdc.jpg.html

[cobracammer]

Hey guys. Just to settle this, I stopped on the way home and got a 180 degree thermostat ( rather than use the 195 degree one I have now).  I drilled the relief hole in it as directed.

i then removed the lower Saleen thermostat and removed the thermostat from it.  I removed the thermostat center from the outer lip with a dremmel so i have just a flat washer like ring of the thermostat ( which helps seal the thermostat when bolted togeter). I washed it, put the o ring on top of it, and sealed it back up. Reinstalled it back on the lower radiator hose, and tightened the clamps

Then, before reinstalling the waterneck and thermostat, i slowly filled the engine with coolant through the intake water jacket. Once it was almost full, i installed the new 180 degree thermostat, waterneck and bolted it back down.  I then filled the degas tank to the full mark.

Long story short, Done with that part.  As soon as the fan relay comes, we can get back to recalibrating and timing

Thanks guys

[My427stang]

Sounds good, be sure to add more water when the thermostat opens

My hunch is the difference will be night and day

[Nightmist66]

Jason, I think you're overheating problem should be solved this time. The Saleen is a confusing setup, but I think you got it now. Keep at it and maybe this time you'll be able to take a spin around the block! Best of luck. Looking forward to a ride along vid.