My 427 SOHC Build..... Finally the time has come!

[My427stang]

Used a method i saw online where you use a really long ratchet extention. ( really thin one) and when you are at the compression stroke, you insert the extension down into the cylinder and rest it on the piston. As my father slowly turned the crank clockwise, there was a point where the extension stopped moving up....  When this happened, i made note of the degrees where the pointer was.  Then slowly he kept turning the crank clockwise until the extension just barely moved ( on its way back down). At this point i made note of the degrees on the crank.

OK first, this is a method to get you close, but it is not as accurate as a piston stop.  I think you still need to figure out where TDC is.  It can't be at 60, who knows where it is, but it doesn't make sense.  I would also run through firing order very carefully too, although it didn't sound bad, there is some reason why turning the distributor is acting funny and not normally, worth a check.

Next, your EFI

First, I stand corrected on my last comment, I dug into their instructions and EZ EFI actually changes the base tables as it learns, so with enough running, it will fix them.  I am not sure I would like that long term, because if you had a vacuum leak or something else, it would try to fix it with tuning, but once you get it close you can shut it down, common for tuners to do.

Second, looking at your setup.  Can you confirm that:
- Engine CID was set accurately
- It was set for dual throttle bodies

Also, when you can get it to run well, a movie of the diagnostic screen (without moving around so much like the last movie)

Values of the following at idle:

TAF
AF
O2C%
CTS(F)
TPS
INJDC%
RPM

I like to look at what the computer is trying to do, because it often tells you where you went wrong as it tries to do better.

Final question, how far away from the exhaust port is your O2 sensor?  As if you had a tape measure going from the header gasket (at the head, through the pipes to the O2 sensor.  The farther away is is, the less effective it is due to cooling as well as late reaction, especially at idle.

In my tunes on EEC-IV I often have to delay it and correct it slightly.  Shorties headers, not so much, but my 489 with long tube Hookers and the O2 sensors in the H pipe, needed tweaking.  Easy to do on a more capable computer, but if yours are WAY back, may want to move it much farther upstream becore you coat the headers.  More on that after you get some info

[cobracammer]

Ok, on my phone right now, but wanted to toss out a few answers. I am using a very basic timing light. I saw the dial back one, butwent for the basic

2, iwill pull the plugs and photo each... And post

3 rd, i remember the tech at fast saying that 1 throttle bodyat43 psi would almost be enough to support the engine... Almost.  So if i have twice as many injectors, shouldnt my fuel pressure be closer to 22 - 24 psi???

4 th... Pretty sure on TDC. Did it twice to ensure we were correct before I stuck the timing tape.
Engine overheated because fans never kicked on and the fans never kicked ou because i had the saleen trmp sensor disconnected ( by accident)
Also it prob doesnt help that my expansion tank it tied into the top radiator line ( boiling water before its cooled through the radiator). Might want to move that with some plumbing.

5 th... The O2 sensor is in the passenger side collector. This is prob 18 to 21 inches ( along the tubes) from the flange and gasket. Honestly there is no way to move it any closer without moving it into just 1 single tube. Lol. There is a picture a page or 2 back showing the header with bung installed on the car

6th... Went back in and checked and its definitley at 482 ci and dual quad is still selected.

7th...  I have a piston stop, but due to the fact that I can only turn the crank clocwise ( when tou try turning counterclockwise you untighten the balancer bolt). I hadto resort to this method. Also, we did it twice and got the same numbers twice before i stuck the timing tape on. Tdc ended up being at 9 degrees ATDC on the original balancer marks

[WConley]

Jason -

Flow rate is not linearly proportional to fuel pressure.  In other words, 21 psi does not equal half the fuel flow of 42 psi.  It's a lot more complicated due to fuel viscosity, losses throughout the path through the injector, etc.

Hopefully you get the timing issues sorted out quickly!

- Bill

[cobracammer]

Pulled plug #1 and plug# 2.  Solid black with wet "oily" gas smelling slick.  It wiped right off with a cloth, and not the 2 plugs are shiny once again.  Its obvious we are going in the right direction moving from 43 psi to 31, but its still too rich.  Found a forum post on another website where a guy had dual quads on a chevelle 400+ ci engine and he was running between 25 and 28 and still having excess fuel issues.  I will call the fast tech tomorrow and discuss. Below is pictures of plug 1 and 2


One big question I have is if the engine is running too rich, could that be why its running at 60 degrees btdc?  Meaning as I lean out the fuel pressure, maybe it will run better closer to 13 to 14 degrees btdc?
Plug 1:



Plug 2:

[ScotiaFE]

Now I'm just throwing this out there.
Could you have forgot to put the key in the damper?

Also if it was moi, moi would go to a standard copper plug something like the Champ RC12YC or the NGK BKR6E
or AR3924.

[machoneman]

2X to a conventional copper core plug!

[cobracammer]

Key is installed in the crank balancer. Also I have other plugs, but these didnt need to be gapped and were said to be better? 

[machoneman]

It's a strange plug, for sure.

Also, wiring?

Per MSD Tech.....

PARK PLUGS AND WIRES
Spark plug wires are very important to the operation of your ignition system. A good quality, helically wound wire and proper routing are required to get the best performance from your ignition, such as the MSD Heli-Core or 8.5mm Super Conductor Wire.
Note: Solid Core spark plug wires cannot be used with an MSD Ignition.
A helically, or spiral wound wire must be used. This style wire provides a good path for the spark to follow while keeping Electro Magnetic Interference (EMI) to a minimum. Excessive EMI, such as the amount that solid core wires produce, will interfere with the operation of the MSD.
Figure 1 Tach Terminal

[My427stang]

I have some other things to do and will come back and read everything BUT your logic on the fuel may be logical but dead wrong

The computer adjusts the fuel based on inputs, you don't adjust using using base pressure different than what you tell the computer.  If that was required there would be no need for injector tuning, nor would there be all the sensors to help.  The ONLY job of the computer is injector timing, pulse, and duration (and fast idle) everything else is an input.  When you try to trick the computer, it has a false base to make decisions.  Not to mention, as you drop pressure, the pattern gets messier and messier, eventually dribbling at low duty cycles

1 - The computer accounts for 2 sets of injectors when you select dual throttle bodies and adjusts, your 1/2 logic is already accounted for when you chose dual TBs
2 - The computer uses injector pulse width and injector slope to determine how much fuel is entered into the engine at the input pressure.  So if you adjust the pressure differently than the input, it no longer accurately adjusts
3 - You may think your TDC is close, and it likely is, but your method will NOT get it exact, close but not exact.  I am not blaming anything on timing, but realize you could easily be a few degrees off.
4 - Take all the plugs out, go either way, the crank bolt won't loosen, if it does, you have something else wrong or the bolt is too loose.
5 - Too much injector is almost impossible, its not a carb, the computer just sprays for a shorter duration or a different shaped flow curve.
6 - I really don't like what the EFI tech is telling you. 

Those plugs are indicative of a bad tune, I'd put a set of cheap Autolites in it, then go back and rebuild the initial tune carefully.  You can play with those after it's dialed in, but they won't help you, just a shiny object

If you get me the data I asked for I will help the best I can, but without seeing what the computer is telling you, there is no way to tune other than just starting over and being careful to make sure you don't fat finger the data

[cobracammer]

UsingMSD 8.5 superconductor wires

Pulled last of the plugs, all just as black as first 2. Replaced them with brand new autolights

Going to call FAST tomorrow and discuss fuel with them again

A few things I want to do before firing again though. Drain oil and check, replace if still good and clean. I aant to move the radiator expansion tankto the lower radiator hose, i want to pull the thermostat and drill the bypass hole mentioned earlier, and then get a more informative description from FAST tech as to why they keep telling me to leave the computer at 43 pai, but turn the regular down to 32 psi ( which from the look of the plugs is wayyyyy too rich). At this point, wish i just had carbs. Hahahah.  Update everyone tomorrow. Thanks guys for all the input

[My427stang]

Copy all, let us know.  Those EZ EFIs don't have much to adjust, if you are resistant to get to the second half of the instruction manual, where you read the values its commanding and seeing, you'll fight it until the end.

The data will tell you if you have a sensor, setup, or ECM problem.  Hopefully you get a good tech.

[WConley]

Jason -

I'd think carefully before relocating that "expansion tank" to the lower radiator hose.  That tank in the modern cooling system of your Saleen is actually a degas bottle.  It needs to be at the highest point in the cooling system.  This gives the gas bubbles in the coolant a place to accumulate.

If you connect the tank to a lower point in the system, you'll end up with gas pockets at other points in the system.  This will make your life (and your engine) miserable.

- Bill

[My427stang]

Jason -

I'd think carefully before relocating that "expansion tank" to the lower radiator hose.  That tank in the modern cooling system of your Saleen is actually a degas bottle.  It needs to be at the highest point in the cooling system.  This gives the gas bubbles in the coolant a place to accumulate.

If you connect the tank to a lower point in the system, you'll end up with gas pockets at other points in the system.  This will make your life (and your engine) miserable.

- Bill

Bill, makes me wonder, do they flow the opposite direction on the new ones?

[WConley]

Ross -

It could very well have been a top-down cooling system in the stock Mustang that year, but Jason has done up a new radiator (I think!) so it should be back to the old-style FE system.  I didn't pore over the old posts to verify this.

Either way, the bubbles will want to go to the highest point no matter if the coolant is going towards or away from the engine.  You also want to pick the bubbles off the highest hose, or they will tend to get trapped at another high spot.

BTW - Your direct knowledge of these new self-learning EFI systems is very enlightening.  I've been away from that stuff for quite a while!

- Bill

[machoneman]

Ross -

It could very well have been a top-down cooling system in the stock Mustang that year, but Jason has done up a new radiator (I think!) so it should be back to the old-style FE system.  I didn't pore over the old posts to verify this.

Either way, the bubbles will want to go to the highest point no matter if the coolant is going towards or away from the engine.  You also want to pick the bubbles off the highest hose, or they will tend to get trapped at another high spot.

BTW - Your direct knowledge of these new self-learning EFI systems is very enlightening.  I've been away from that stuff for quite a while!

- Bill

I'm with Bill. Ross, your knowledge of modern EFI systems is great.....I'll know who to ask if I ever dabble in a similar system! Heck, I'll just bring the car and write a check...LOL!