445 stroker build vs rebuilding my 390

[Fine69mach1]

I have a dilemma on my hands. I previously posted questions about building my first 390 for my 69 Mach1 and got a tonne of feedback from you  FE guys.
Scotia Fe suggested near the end of my thread that if I was going to rebuild my entire short block, why not buy the 445 kit from survival for $2000 and build a monster instead of just another decent 390.
this got me thinking.
If I went and bought the "prison break 445 package" from survival, what other costs would I need to upgrade?
Just to refresh
69 Mach1, c-6 shift kit, 2000 stall, 3.91 gears 28" tire.
I have Edelbrock 60069 heads assembled, Strretmaster intake, 750 Holley dbl pumper msd distrtibutor and 6al box, hooker 1 3/4 primary headers.

How much will I gain if I go to a hyd roller instead of hyd flat tappet? What costs will I expect if I go roller?
Do I need to upgrade the valvetrain to end stands and new rockers with a roller?
What kinda RPM will a 445 pull to? or what is a avg powerband ?
I'm looking for 2000rpm to 5500rpm but im sure they can pull a lot higher if they are built right.

It will probably cost me the same $$$$ for a good rebuild 390 with new pistons rings, bearings, especially if they have to machine the crank and rods at all.

Just looking for food for thought. Once again I am new to FE motors and I'm trying to learn as much as I can from all of you.
Thanks for your patience guys,

Jared

[Lenz]

I was the last to chime in on your last thread so I'll be the first here.  I'm currently building the 445 survival kit, am using a 750 vac sec Holley (3310) performer RPM intake and the same 60069 heads.  My ignition is MSD 6AL and I'm running Hooker super comp headers.  Pretty much the same stuff you have on the shelf.

I have long passed the point of deciding on the stroker prison break 445, it just makes sense.  The RPM range you are talking about is right in the wheel house.  If my cam (comp XE274HD-10 1,800 to 6,000 rpm range flat tappet) doesn't work out I'll change it, but for mainly angry street duty I think it will do nicely.  You mentioned hydraulic rollers, your 60069's are flat tappet hydraulic recommended only at .600" max lift.  Edelbrock makes pn 60065 that will accommodate .700" lift with dual springs, they sell it for hydraulic roller setups.  Near as I can tell you will add a grand for the roller lifter and rocker setup, my wallet said whoa for now .  I did some careful searching and can say with "reasonable confidence" that the only difference between the heads you have and heads that will accommodate a roller cam is a spring change, but take note of that. The heads you have still require careful setup with the right valve train geometry.  Adjustable rockers are necessary to get it right.  Pay close attention to other threads here that speak to these issues, there is some great stuff there.  One of the things that was killing the 390 in my car was poor valve train geometry, need to get that right (again, tons of knowledge on this site from members in this area!).

Think it through before you pull the trigger.  There's a lot more to say and all of this has to be filed under JMO, but it is the beginning of my two cents.  More later when I get mine on the chassis dyno.  In the meantime, cubic inches rock !

[bn69stang]

Honestly if it were me , i would build the stroker because of the cubes , and mostly  brand new parts .. and as far as the roller cam go s , i would do that as well , i am rite now and have bout $1500.00  in it - comp roller , t@d rockers , morel lifter s . do it write the first time Jared you have a good start . there is a lot said for a new crank , new h beam rods , forged pistons ect .. Bud

[ScotiaFE]

Lots of info from Barry's site.
Some excellent 445 builds to get you thinking.
The more exotic the valve train the more it will cost. But you can run a modest cam and stock valve train stuff
with your 445 and still make good power.

http://fefordtech.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=939vkbupjbn09cb05coe6d9ut3&board=6.0

[Fine69mach1]

Thanks for the replies guys!
I appreciate the feedback

Lenz -  keep me posted on how your build turns out.

ScotiaFE - thanks for the link. Very helpful to see different combos and how it changes results.

I don't plan on going too crazy. Looking for a solid 445 bottom end and  Still gonna keep a somewhat mild cam ( under .600 lift) and valvetrain except for changing to adjustable rockers.

I am shooting for around 450 HP and 500 ft lbs

[jayb]

Might be worth looking at the 390 stroker article I wrote a few years back for Car Craft.  500 HP for $6K.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0808_ford_390_fe/

[ScotiaFE]

Forgot about that Jay. 
Great article.
Actually the prices have not really crept up that much after all these years.
Probably a better deal today than 6 or 7 years ago.

[TorinoBP88]

You will need new valve springs.

You may need a different cam and lifters, new timing chain (FOrd Motorsports, cloyies)

Also you will need a rag to whipe the S*^T eating grin off your face when you are done!!! 

[bn69stang]

There are alot or different ways to attack the engine , and over all performance , street cruising and such and i certainly did nt want to tell you what or how to do it after i read Jay s book , Barry s book did nt want you to be where i was . thinking you have a certain hp / and being far short and then making major changes .. take your time pick and match your parts well , listen to all of these guys and put it together once and be happy with the final product .. Bud

[Fine69mach1]

I went the Stroker route
I have my engine down at my engine builders and have decided to go with a 432 stroker kit.
I am using a 1966 block which has never been rebuilt. All original.
Machine shop is doing oil mod's to block.
HV oil pump and HD shaft, milodan windage tray and stock pan
432 balanced rotating assembly with 9.8:1 pistons
Cam will be custom ground hyd flat tappet to motor spec as they use a custom camshaft guy. Custom length pushrod TBD
I am using 72cc  Edelbrock 60069 RPM heads fully assembled. Oil restrictor installed. may need to open up oil return as these heads are from 2003 ( in new condition though) (Guy I bought them off used them for a few hundred miles and then changed them out for a cast set and then they sat back in box for several years)
I am planning on using my stock rocker assembly non adjustable 1.73 rockers. They appear to be in good shape still. Motor only had 50,000 miles on it. I would like to upgrade the rocker assembly but Im already way over my budget. I know there is some shimming to fit on Edelbrock intake valve position.
I have an unported Streetmaster which I am planning to have port matched to Edelbrock ports.
650 Holley dbl pumper flown to 830 cfm
6114 Hooker Headers with 1 3/4 primary's
MSD Dist and ignition
Motor will be broken in and run on the dyno at engine shop.

-The factory rocker assembly is probably my weakest point but does anybody have any experience running Factory non adjustable rockers on Edelbrock heads?
Is there anything I should know going forward with this?
-Do I still use the factory oil drip rails? Will they have to be modified to fit on Edelbrock heads?

Any feedback is welcomed. Pros and cons.

Thanks, Jared

[lovehamr]

In ref to the rockers; what are your cam specs?

[fairlanegt427]

in reference to valve train the factory rockers are actually really good.  the one upgrade thaat is a must and i know other guys will agree are to upgrade your end support stands, and also a chrome moly rocker shaft.  precision pumps makes nice ones and i run them on a 12:1 428 and have had zero problems.  and friends of mine that run the fe also have done the same.  the kits come with  shims so  you can really dial in  your factory rockers.  remember most of all valve train geometry is crucial no matter what motor a person runs. also the factory drip trays i run,  but ford made different styles of them.  i have mixede feeling on them but on your heads they will fit with no modification,  but that also depends if you go with aftermarket rockers then you open up a whole other can of worms. but that is a different area than what you need answers too.  hope this helps

[Fine69mach1]

Thanks for the replies.
I do t have the cam specs yet as I am getting a custom ground can to suit my motor but it will not exceed .600 lift probably in around .550 range for lift.

[fairlanegt427]

i was thinking on valve train and forgot to say that if you use aftermarket support stands they  just about always wont clear the oil finger trays i forgot to mention that.  factory stands are fine to use.  its just the end stands is where breakage will happen.

[Lenz]

I'm running the same Edelbrock heads you have (60069's).  Heads that I pulled off my old 390 are C6AE - 6090 R.  When I went to reuse the trays on my new heads found they would not fit (as previously stated, many differrent designs?).  Had to trim the fingers quite a bit and then cut down the "backbone" to clear my aftermarket rockers.  Considered going without the trays but wanted to capture and redirect some oil as originally intended.  I also wanted to get the rocker shaft as close to original height as possible and the trays measured roughly .025".

[Fine69mach1]

Len,
Since you are running the same heads, are you also running the stock rocker assembly too?
Did  you put in rocker studs?
If I can find the extra cash I will buy the pop end stands and rocker shafts but may have to just use my factory set up for now. 
Blew my budget already on stroker kit.

[Lenz]

Len,
Since you are running the same heads, are you also running the stock rocker assembly too?
Did  you put in rocker studs?
If I can find the extra cash I will buy the pop end stands and rocker shafts but may have to just use my factory set up for now. 
Blew my budget already on stroker kit.

Jared,
Understand the blew my budget part , I did that a while back.

I consider my setup to be adequate for break in and cruising at this point.  I am running Harland Sharp aluminum roller tip rockers.  They are bronze bushed (I'm sure that full rollers are better for reduced friction).  They were designed to work well on my factory shafts which I reused, I didn't have any installation issues.  Over the winter I will upgrade to chrome moly shafts and quality end support stands using these same rockers.

My factory adjustable rockers were digging trenches and breaking stem edges on some of my old valves due to bad build practices (I found bent and different length push rods when I took it apart).  I think most here will tell you your factory setup is strong and should work well if properly set up.

With that said, Edelbrock does list adjustable rockers for the build on their instruction sheet, not sure why.  I went with them in a "better safe than sorry" approach and to accommodate future changes anyway.  The Edelbrock heads move the intake away from centerline as opposed to the factory 390 heads.  I used .060" valve spring shims to get this done.

Also, I did go with the rocker shaft stud kit, my factory bolts were flat-out too long, and with the studs you safely get full purchase on the heli-coil insert.

Hope this helps,
Len

[fairlanegt427]

i have a 12:1 428 makes good power and ive never had a problem with valve train.  all ive done is put in chrome moly shafts and changed the end support stands,  everything else is factory rockers   precision pumps makes some really nice stands and they are very affordable.  plus come with shims to really dial in the rocker to the valve tip

[fe66comet]

A good rocker set also has the advantage of valve train stability. Which believe it or not will give a measurable gain in HP. With rocker flex you loose lift and consistency, some claim 15-25 HP gains but I can't substantiate that. But I do know if combined with a roller camshaft (hydraulic or solid) big gains can be had. IMHO well with waiting for the extra dough to get the good stuff.