Author Topic: EFI intake size and length?  (Read 9902 times)

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fe66comet

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EFI intake size and length?
« on: March 08, 2014, 12:20:46 PM »
I give up, I have looked all over the WWW and found no solid info on a HP/ torque or cfm based formula for intake systems. Being a heating and cooling engineer for many years I would think a formula of some sort exists for such a thing. I need about 1200 cfm @ 6500, I am not sure of what my frictional loss or my pressure would be either? A smaller diameter increases velocity at a cost of total cfm at high rpm which is good for throttle response. A bigger diameter is good for top end but it will hurt you from the 1200 to 3000 range. Tube length and elbows add to frictional loss and more heat gain, a wide radius elbow reduces the effect as does a shorter tube. Beyond these basic factors how do I fill in the blanks? Thanks Jon

Joe-jdc

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2014, 03:14:36 PM »
Just how big an engine are you working on?  1200 cfm is a lot of air.  I have had 632CI engine at 7400rpm on a dyno making 1213hp, and the total airflow was not close to 1200cfm.  Just as a side, the heads flowed 492CFM on the SF-600 flow bench with the sheetmetal intake in place.  Joe-JDC.

machoneman

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2014, 05:13:44 PM »
Wallace's site has the most comprehensive calculators on the planet.........

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm
Bob Maag

cjshaker

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2014, 08:13:30 PM »
Remember that throttle bodies don't have venturis and boosters to interfere with airflow like a carb does. So an actual 1000cfm carb, which is pretty darn big on an FE, typically doesn't flow anywhere near its rating. 1200cfm in EFI is pretty big.
Doug Smith


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fe66comet

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2014, 09:12:08 PM »
I have a 445 stroker spinning 7000 redline with a hydraulic roller cam (281/287-230/236@ 598/610). I had Barry's shop do my Ebok heads with a Stage X upgrade and machine for T&D race rockers. I am using one of Jays adaptors to run a MPI Fast Fuel system and just settled on a ported Trick flow Box R Cleveland intake upper and lower. I require somewhere between a 90-120mm throttle body to feed 700 HP. I settled on a 95mm flowing 1450 comservativly so that should be about right. The intake plenum will have to modified slightly to make it happen, it uses a 90mm max so some welding is in order there. Otherwise with blending the heads to 1.3 / 2.1 it should be all good. The air box and tubing is the next fab Job. Just not sure where to go with it, cold air will be fed from a CJ hood scoop to a seperator/ air box on the fender then a panel filter into the throttle body is my plan. Beyond that not sure?

TomP

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2014, 02:21:52 AM »
Not sure why you'd need to do welding? If anything grind the huge hole out even huger. 90mm is already huge and i doubt you even need one that big. It will probably still work but don't misjudge injector sizing that much.

7000 rpm with hydraulic rollers might not be so easy , besides with that cam duration it will be making peak power lower and you'd just risk hurting things.

cjshaker

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2014, 05:39:00 AM »
7000 rpm with hydraulic rollers might not be so easy , besides with that cam duration it will be making peak power lower and you'd just risk hurting things.

Have to agree with Tom here. Seems to me that cam will pretty much be done making power by 6000-6500 tops. And hydraulic rollers aren't typically recommended to be pushed to 7000. Why risk it when there is nothing to gain?
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

BH107

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2014, 12:37:46 PM »
I agree with the above, so you should plan for what your engine will realistically do. You'll probably be closer to 500 HP at 6000 rpm.

Bad Byrd

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2014, 01:18:55 PM »
I can see him at the 550 mark, but even at 700hp the desired CFM is way high! Different animal I get it but my mod motor put 800 + HP to the tire with a throttle body that was maxed at 1050 CFM!

fe66comet

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2014, 10:20:02 PM »
It does max at 6500 HP wise but would need to go to 6800 or so to overlap the power band, so maybe 6800 to get past to my next shift. I am running a stick so i kinda am looking in that range. Valve train wise I am good to 7500 without float but no need to go that high so redline with my shift light is going to be set at 6800 and rev limiter set point 7000. As far as the 90mm throttle body it is a little shy for race but would be fine for street use. The manifold lower has plenty of meat and sopports more flow than a 90mm TB will sopport. The lower so happens to be right on the money with a 2.1/1.3 port to taper down at the adapter and head to a 2.1/1.2 port with matching. I actually have a lot of porting experience with carburation, but EFI requires more air to make power. A carbureted intake is tuned to keep velocity in the plenum by two things one is the size of the venturi of the carburetor two is  plenum, port size to maintain a high velocity in the power band based on CID and RPM. Fuel injection works on the same princeable but uses a tapered intake to increase velocity with rpm based on runner length. Kinda a funnel effect, as velocity is only a concern at the injector point. This is why more air can be stuffed in a MPI system. If you chocke the intake at the throttle body or intake fresh air system it does squat and the whole thing runs like a dog after 4000 RPM. As far as the HP numbers the same engine on Barry,s site produced 650 HP with a caburator and a few less goodies. So I can expect a little better comfortably.

Posi67

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2014, 11:20:19 PM »
At the risk of hurting your feelings I'm going to chime in here and say there's plenty wrong with your calculations and it's mostly because you have some faulty assumptions. As previously stated, your combo might make around 550 HP. It won't go to 6500 or at least not make power there and you don't need 1000's of cfm to support what you have. You need to build the engine and see what kind of dyno numbers it comes up with.

The other glaring problem (unless I'm reading this wrong) is the idea you want to feed this through a CJ style scoop. The opening is relatively small on those and almost all the air at speed passes over top because they are too low to the hood. You're the expert and have acknowledged the bends, filter box etc. are a restriction but without a better intake at the front of the car I'm guessing the rest is going to suffer. All my opinion BTW!

fe66comet

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 08:39:32 AM »
@ 23/5 the scoop flow I am sure will flow fine. As said the engine build is a dyno proven already so my feelings are not hurt. If I wanted 500 HP I would have built a 351 as 1.5 HP per cube is easily obtainable but not cheap. Never mind.

bluef100fe

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2014, 09:16:19 AM »
I don't see that small duration cam with those heads on that size engine making peak power anywhere north of 6000... My guess is 5500rpm peak... I would guess you would be shifting at or below 6000 rpm for best drag strip performance... Depending on car setup and a bunch of other unknowns. X2 on what others have said about the peak power number also... I would guess around 500-550hp with this combo... Of course this is IMO but I wish you the best of luck.


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BH107

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2014, 11:59:19 AM »
I'm guessing that you were referring to this 445 build that Barry did and made 580hp. That engine had CNC heads, 12:1 compression, and a bigger cam. Even then it was peaking at 6100. What else have you done to expect such significant improvement over this?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1347974661/Dyno+testing+-+445+with+some+power

fe66comet

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Re: EFI intake size and length?
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2014, 12:33:47 PM »
Stage x upgrade includes 2.25 intake, 172 exhaust. 5/16 valve stems with bowl blending and cut guides and port work.The pistons with a .040 head gasket and machined block come out to 10.5:1. The cam has a very steep two pattern ramp for lots of air. Once I get Jays adaptor I am going to open up everything to a 2.1/1.3 port to the valve bowl. Injection works best around 600 lift and is completely different than a carburetor due to the lack of fuel in the mixture. That extra 20% in space and larger, shorter ports equates to a far denser air charge with port injection. All together adding this to a even a 500 HP package from Barry's recipie I feel confident of the numbers. I am also using an electric fan and water pump, windage tray, Fast Fuel XFI fuel system, crank and cam angle sensors and MSD Digital 6al box with a MSD Billet distributer.