Small intake port head with a " better" combustion chamber and 2.02 intakes?

[66gtafairlane]

Hi.

Does a head with small intake ports ( appr 2" x 1.3" like C7-C8AE ), 2.02 intake valves and slightly better chamber, thinking of quench, than the basic D-shaped ( C6AE-R for example), exist ?`
Those C7 or C8 heads would fit the bill for me, but thought that if they had a chamber with a bit more quench,would be better.

Thanks !

[My427stang]

I will start by saying they can run pretty well with porting.  However, the ONLY time I use them is if I need the low exhaust port to fit a header flange (someone already bought headers or in a 4x4 truck)

The intake with a decent valve and porting can get up to about 275 cfm at .600, but the exhaust port is pretty bad, best I have seen in 175 cfm.  Unported, they leave likely 20 cfm on the intake side from a C6AE-R.  I do not think the chamber is any noticeable improvement even though it is shaped differently.  I attached a pic to show it overlaid with a dish piston, although with a reverse D cup you may have more pad engagement.

If I were building iron, and I had access to CJ headers, I'd run a medium riser intake on a CJ or C6AE-R, preferably ported and with an 11/32 valve combo and modern guides with the heads cut for spring cups.  In the end, easy setup and no messing around with the exhaust port.  However, the same setup with a TFS head would run circles around it, you can still have a good running engine. 

If you had C7/C8 headers already, and didn't want new headers, the same improvements to the small ports will do OK, you just need to change the cam a little.  Unported, it'd leave a lot on the table

[blykins]

Hi.

Does a head with small intake ports ( appr 2" x 1.3" like C7-C8AE ), 2.02 intake valves and slightly better chamber, thinking of quench, than the basic D-shaped ( C6AE-R for example), exist ?`
Those C7 or C8 heads would fit the bill for me, but thought that if they had a chamber with a bit more quench,would be better.

Thanks !

Check out a C0AE-D head.

[Joe-JDC]

Those FE heads that have the 2.020-2.030 intake valve only flow in the 220-230cfm range at .750".  The stock camshafts were never over .480" lift in any of the hydraulic camshaft engines.  The C6AE-R heads would flow in the 250s cfm.  No contest as to which heads are best for performance builds.  Joe-JDC

[CaptCobrajet]

When I won the Engine Masters, I used a C4AE-G casting.  We digitized the EMC stuff, and it will work on any of the “Low Riser” castings like the C4AE-G, C6AE-R, Cobra Jet, and 427 LR.  I’m 90% sure it will work in the C0AE-D that Brent mentioned, which has the small, heart shaped chamber.  I think there isn’t much difference between the Trick Flow head and my iron EMC head.  I have a version of the new BBM head that we put a small exhaust valve in, that has a really nice chamber, and is better than the EMC iron and the Trick Flow.  The EMC iron would cost a little less than the TFS, and the BBM would cost a little more.  I guess it depends on your goals.

[Joe-JDC]

The TFS FE head will flow 360-365cfm with a simple cartridge roll finish on the ports and no additional work.  NO Ford head short of the TP, HR heads will come close to that flow number and 175 cc port volume. At $2750.00 it is a great deal.    Joe-JDC

[CaptCobrajet]

As delivered if ordered straight from Summit (Trick Flow), those heads are no where in the ball park of 360 cfm, seriously.  I see them at 310 here at .500, which is really pretty good, and then 315 at .550, and then 307 at .600 as they scream back at you.  Yes, they can be fixed not to do that, but as delivered, that is what they do here.  The EMC head flows 302 here at .500, and 315 at .600.  Same bench, same method, smaller valve.  The low lift numbers below .500 are tit for tat.  I was thinking along the lines of streetable .600 lift cams when I posted what I posted.  There is not much long term success on the street with .700 to .800 lift, which is where you would have to go to see 340 out of a TFS head on my bench, after fixing the short turn turbulence. That EMC iron head will not flow more than 330 here, even with the floors filled, at .800 lift. There is more high lift flow potential with the TFS or any aluminum head, just because you run out of real estate in the OEM iron casting. I was stating the facts as I have witnessed.  I put those TFS heads on a 390 with two 600 carbs and similar cam to the EMC engine and it made 600 hp, whereas the EMC piece made 620 on that same dyno (BES at that time).  So between flows tests on the same flow bench and dyno tests on the same dyno, I saw pretty similar performance between the TFS and the EMC iron head. 

You have to consider how it will realistically be used, and spewing max flow numbers after further modification, at non streetable lifts, in an attempt to discredit my comments, is really not an accurate representation of how most people will use a street engine.  The TFS people really did a pretty good job making an out of the box head with good .500-.550 flow.  There are other things I don’t like about that head, but as far as mild cam streetable flow, that part is good.

I don’t disagree that the TFS head has more potential than a 60 year old iron casting. The original question was asking about iron heads.  I just gave my opinion on heads as they would be received, from TFS, or from me.  Not intended to spark any argument or controversy. 

[66gtafairlane]

Thanks for your input. I have now sorted out the shortblock and ordered the parts, it will be a 462 ( 4.16 / 4.25) ci with a Scat cast crank, I beams and Mahle 20cc pistons with 1.0 1.0 and 2.0 mm rings.
My target is a street torque monster with 6000-6200 redline.530-560 horses. Fairlane´s engine compartment - 1 3/4" custom headers do have  quite a sharp turn exiting the head.C6 and 2.75 highway gears.
Static compression ratio with 20 cc piston, 0 deck and 0.040" head gasket will be 10.6 - this more or less dictates the use of aluminum heads as this is a street motor for my Fairlane with a decent camshaft( hydraulic roller around 233 /238 @0.050", around ,0.600 lift- have not decided yet) ,dynamic compression must be kept under 8.5 with premium pump gas.I had 8.1 DCR in my previous motor, 390 with C6AE-R heads and that was on the edge of detonation. Think 8.5 with aluminum head and good modern chamber would be ok.
Initially have been thinking of those TFS heads but availability seems to be limited,therefore have also been thinking of iron Ford heads as an option. But as mentioned, placed the order with Mahle 20 cc heads which will give a true 10.6 compression.

[blykins]

Thanks for your input. I have now sorted out the shortblock and ordered the parts, it will be a 462 ( 4.16 / 4.25) ci with a Scat cast crank, I beams and Mahle 20cc pistons with 1.0 1.0 and 2.0 mm rings.
My target is a street torque monster with 6000-6200 redline.530-560 horses. Fairlane´s engine compartment - 1 3/4" custom headers do have  quite a sharp turn exiting the head.C6 and 2.75 highway gears.
Static compression ratio with 20 cc piston, 0 deck and 0.040" head gasket will be 10.6 - this more or less dictates the use of aluminum heads as this is a street motor for my Fairlane with a decent camshaft( hydraulic roller around 233 /238 @0.050", around ,0.600 lift- have not decided yet) ,dynamic compression must be kept under 8.5 with premium pump gas.I had 8.1 DCR in my previous motor, 390 with C6AE-R heads and that was on the edge of detonation. Think 8.5 with aluminum head and good modern chamber would be ok.
Initially have been thinking of those TFS heads but availability seems to be limited,therefore have also been thinking of iron Ford heads as an option. But as mentioned, placed the order with Mahle 20 cc heads which will give a true 10.6 compression.

You need to bounce some combinations off of an engine builder.  Cam specs can't be chosen without knowing the cylinder head. 

I had 11 sets of TFS heads last week and shipped them out.  Next batch will be here in 2 weeks. 

[frnkeore]

The TFS FE head will flow 360-365cfm with a simple cartridge roll finish on the ports and no additional work.  NO Ford head short of the TP, HR heads will come close to that flow number and 175 cc port volume. At $2750.00 it is a great deal.    Joe-JDC

Joe, I have a set of TFS heads. Could you be more specific as what to do with that cartridge roll to get the extra 30+ cfm out of them?

Thank you

[mbrunson427]

I have some data input here, from our flow bench. Have actually had both those heads on it. You can see at .600"-.650" lift the TFS backs up, I think anybody that has had a TFS head on a flow bench has witnessed that.

I do agree, we cleaned that turbulent area out of a TFS head and it yielded 335-340cfm. Obviously, Mr. Craine is a better porter than we are, and we didn't sink too much time into it. We worked on it just enough to convince ourselves that our MR head is flowing better than you could achieve out of a worked-over TFS casting.

[mbrunson427]

I also have some corresponding dyno data. 465" Engine with the EMC heads, and also out-of-the-box TFS heads.

Only disappointing part of the TFS heads is they hit a wall around 6200-6300


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[e philpott]

what size valve in the C4AE ?
That's some serious flow from a factory iron low riser

[Mr Woodys Garage]

Here Are Some Documented Results With Trick Flow Heads.
     These Charts And Graphs Are From My 428/463, Using TFS Heads. "S" Code 428 Block , A Scat Forged 4.25 Crank, Mahle Pistons, Molnar Rods, A Custom Solid Roller Cam, And Lots Of Attention From A Master Engine Machinist And Builder. Either Way You Decide To Go, Its Great That There Are Options To Help Make An FE Stronger Today Than Ever. A Big Shout Out Of Appreciation To All Those Who Make This Engine Family Their Passion, And Work Relentlessly To Continue Improving One Of Fords Greatest Engines.

[Mr Woodys Garage]

Dyno Sheet