Couple of easy build questions

[Thumperbird]

I think we should start talking about paint versus cast iron porosity and significant shrinkage Jerry.

[DuckRyder]

So is there a best color of glyptal   

[Joe-JDC]

I have been at this for nearly 62 years, and I have not had any problems with paint softening on the engine from a gasket install.  However, when I do install a gasket on most engine surfaces, I simply clean them with acetone/lacquer thinner first before applying any adhesive or in some cases white lithium if I am going to be back into the engine as in a dyno session.  I do have a 428CJ that had the lifter valley painted with Sherwin Williams glyptol paint back in 1981 and the paint is still holding up just fine.  If you respect Jon Kaase's engine building abilities, then you need to check out his 1000hp build of a 598 BB Ford and look at the interior of his block.  If the block is prepped properly the correct paint will adhere in the interior of the block and not flake/peel/or soften with oil or water present.  Argue about something that needs fixing.  Joe-JDC

[TJ]

I have been at this for nearly 62 years, and I have not had any problems with paint softening on the engine from a gasket install.  However, when I do install a gasket on most engine surfaces, I simply clean them with acetone/lacquer thinner first before applying any adhesive or in some cases white lithium if I am going to be back into the engine as in a dyno session.  I do have a 428CJ that had the lifter valley painted with Sherwin Williams glyptol paint back in 1981 and the paint is still holding up just fine.  If you respect Jon Kaase's engine building abilities, then you need to check out his 1000hp build of a 598 BB Ford and look at the interior of his block.  If the block is prepped properly the correct paint will adhere in the interior of the block and not flake/peel/or soften with oil or water present.  Argue about something that needs fixing.  Joe-JDC

I don't think anyone is arguing.  We're just talking paint properties.  You mentioned
paint and gasket installs. If you have a paint that remains intact upon removing a water pump gasket after years of service, can you tell me what it is?  Not being ornery.  I've just never seen intact paint after removing a gasket.  That would be a paint worth using. 

Painting a lifter valley is actually easier on paint...motor oil is normally not very aggressive.  Though I would never paint a lifter valley.  Also, paint made 40 years ago is often better because they could use chemistries that are illegal today.

I have no idea what Kaase Racing is using for paint.  Their engines start at over $20K so they maybe using two component products or even baked on finishes that out perform typical engine enamels.  Single stage urethanes (like Ross mentioned) would cost around $150 ish or more per engine unless you are doing a lot of engines and can get bulk discount.  And you'd want a full face mask because isocyanates can be nasty to inhale or get in your eyes.  Average guy wouldn't likely use those.

Again, not arguing here.  I know paint and will help if I can.  And what else is there to talk about?  The FE world is shrinking.     The videos Jay posted on sohc rockers was cool.

[e philpott]

Did someone mention Glyptal ? I watched a guy pour some oil in his lifter valley that had that stuff painted on it and I don't think I've ever seen oil drain back that fast to the pan ever , it was like the oil had roller skates on.

[blykins]

Has anyone ever done a drain-back A/B test between natural cast iron and Glyptal painted?

To this day, I've never seen an instance where I thought I needed something like that. 

Was at Kaase's shop a decade or so ago dyno'ing an engine.  Walked through his engine assembly room, where he had a couple of large inch Hemi/Mountain Motor type builds going on.  I don't remember seeing any Glyptal on any of them.  Now, that's not to say that he hasn't changed techniques or did something special in particular for an EMC build. 

I will tell you that I'm in contact with a lot of engine builders who build some really high end engines, heads-up drag race engines, pulling truck, dirt track, etc.  They don't use the stuff and their engines live just fine.  That kinda tells me that it's a preference kind of thing. 

Anyone ever seen a cast aluminum block with Glyptal in the lifter valley?  My guess is that you wouldn't want to put it on an aluminum block because they squirm around so much with heat, but that also tells me that with the amount of aluminum blocks out there in extremely high performance/race applications, the paint just isn't necessary. 

Keith Craft's shop used to Glyptal everything, even their cylinder heads.  I've seen heads with that stuff on them and it has flaked/worn off from where the spring locators had went on and moved around. 

[TJ]

 

Anyone ever seen a cast aluminum block with Glyptal in the lifter valley?  My guess is that you wouldn't want to put it on an aluminum block because they squirm around so much with heat, but that also tells me that with the amount of aluminum blocks out there in extremely high performance/race applications, the paint just isn't necessary. 

Aluminum can be tricky.  I've done pull testing where a formula exceeded requirements on one panel and was complete fail on another panel from the same lot of panels.   I honestly have not been involved with aluminum enough to know why.  A fellow has to be real careful how the surface is prepared.  I just know it made we want to climb a tree and sit in it. 

By surface prep, I mean how the aluminum product is prepared by the manufacturer…not anything the typical person can do at home.

[e philpott]

Brent , they had it in the heads to, but he was pouring the oil in the valley and I remember thinking it was really fast flow to the drains and I was impressed but like you I thought about what if it flakes off

[GerryP]

Faster oil drain back might have been Glyptal's secondary benefit.  Glyptal has been around for a hundred years.  Its primary purpose was to seal porous castings.  Racers have been using it for decades.  Not only to seal holes, but to seal in casting and machining debris.  The Glypal would keep casting sand sealed up in the casting so that it wouldn't detach and migrate through the engine.  Engines were very dirty up until modern foundry operations.  Glyptal is also a good way to keep an engine's insides very clean which makes seasonal rebuilds easier since some soap and a hose is enough to give a block a good cleaning.  Using Glyptal will not harm anything.  It just takes time to apply.

[My427stang]

I am not a Glyptal fan.  I never applied it, so I can't speak to that, but I have had two come in from respected builders, one which was a new Genesis block that came in with unrelated spun bearings.

That Genesis was flaking, but, when I decided I wanted it off, some came off with my nail, some with a pressure washer, some in a hot tank, and some wouldn't at all.  It took forever to get to where I trusted putting it back together

As far as improved drain back, compared to a dry iron block, maybe, but once that block has oil on it, I would be surprised if it does anything.  Just speculation though.

I can't comment on the sealing, but I always thought it was for electrical motors in some way.  However, please never ask me to use it, and if it's on the engine, I am not very happy to hot tank and rebuild

[pbf777]

        Paint adhesion problems are 99% of the time a surface preparation failure; whether it be chemical contamination or surface texture; if the paint falling off a surface is not degraded by environmental exposures, then the fault "most" likely is not that of the paint itself.   

        As far as for painting the interior of a block or of the cylinder heads, this was often practiced by manufactures for the purpose of sealing the cast surfaces, this preventing the release of unsecured particulate that remained post manufacturing even with reasonable cleaning efforts, this that otherwise would be released into the lubricating oil with the heat and vibration in operation; only later was it deemed valuable as an accelerant for oil drain-back in performance applications.

        Getting back to the issues of paint adherence, new casting components that haven't been exposed to contaminants under heat, pressure and vibratory effects generally can be cleaned sufficiently for painting; but engines that have being operating for sometimes great periods of time it's nearly impossible to remove these contaminants (particularly oils) from the parent material, and even though the surface may seem to have been adequately cleaned, the "stuff" will rise out of the porous casting when in service and this often is what lifts the paint. 

        This issue is why many engine builders, and ourselves included, in instances requiring such considerations adopted polishing the surfaces rather than coating them, definitely takes longer with greater effort, but it is a permanent solution once completed.   

        Scott.

[Barry_R]

I look at "glyptol" or other internal engine paint on a risk vs reward basis.
The perceived reward is either a cleaner assembly or improved oil drawback - maybe both.
If you've ever accidentally kicked over a drain pan of warm oil - you know that it really needs no help flowing at all.
I always figured that if you needed paint in the valley to retain debris - you did not clean it well enough.
Nobody that I am aware of is painting the insides of passages where debris really likes to hide.

The risk is if the stuff comes unattached in some fashion.
In comparison to the cooling passages - the internal engine is an area where a wandering chunk of paint can cause catastrophic failure.

Small reward - big risk = no reason to do it.

I have a wife and three daughters.
The toilet seat at my house may as well be bolted down permanently.....

[Heo]

 

If we are not careful, a college professor will snag an $8.7Billion grant to study this subject.

[blykins]

Do they make any kind of industrial paint slathering for the outside of these porous aftermarket blocks?  Whoops, did I say that out loud?

[Heo]

Do they make any kind of industrial paint slathering for the outside of these porous aftermarket blocks?  Whoops, did I say that out loud?

Opening another can of worms here . I use 3 coats PPG Epoxi primer outside the block to seal the pores
not sweating of oil or lifted paint for many years. And i also grade of all sharp corners beacuse the paint tend to creap away
from sharp corners. And thats on porous stock blocks never had an aftermarket block and probably will never have one