Anyone using CVR electric water pumps?

[AlanCasida]

I am looking at puting an electric water pump on my 521 bbf (sorry not FE). I wanted to get a Meziere 55gpm unit but in their photos it looks like they have changed the inlet location on the pump housing so now it angles forward as it goes down, making it unusable as a stock bolt on reaplacement and completely unusable for my application. However the CVR 55gpm unit retains the stock inlet location but I don't know much about them. This will be used in various drag n drive events so I want something that is reliable. On Meziere's website they show the same unit unit with the inlet in the stock location and in their instructions they the picture I have included. I sent them an email asking for a clarification. Thanks, guys.
 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mez-wp308b/make/ford

[blykins]

I use a bunch of them.  They work well. 

[cjshaker]

That's the pump that Jay's adapters are for, and we know they've worked fine on Drag Weeks, which can be a real test. I know it's not the specific pump you referenced, but I believe the Pro-Flo's are pretty much all the same pump, just adapted in different housings for different engines. I've got one for my new engine but haven't had the chance to put it to the test yet.

[pbf777]

      I know many will state that these electric water pumps "work fine" for street cars, but in reality they were intended for limited operation applications such as "drag racing", etc., not for long durational operation applications such as road course or even "street" applications.   

      Yes, they can provide significant "flow" numbers, but the mechanical water pump is intended by design to provide a certain "head-pressure" sum, which is also relied upon by the O.E.M.'s in their cooling system engineering (this is the actual effect lost when one removes the thermostat and encounters overheating, rather than the popularly stated "the water just flows to fast to pick-up the heat"), and this, these aftermarket electric pumps often fall far short of providing.   

      I was at a P.R.I. show several years ago and was attempting to explore this subject, this with a well known manufacturer, and it became infuriating as to the extent that each of the representatives went to avoid the issue, this finally leading to having the man who's name was on the product being sent over to me to say: I was right, "our pumps provide no significant pressure, only flow" and that they did not ever recommend their product for applications of lengthy operational periods, then abruptly turned and walked away!   

      Scott.

[jayb]

Nevertheless, they seem to work well in street applications.  I've had a CVR electric water pump on my daily driver 68 Mustang for years, with no problems.  Same with my Drag Week cars, where you are driving 1000 miles over 5 days, in hot summer weather, plus racing at the tracks.  Opening up the radiator cap with an electric water pump shows a whole lot more flow at idle than a mechanical pump.  Personal experience tells me I can trust an electric water pump to cool the engine properly in a street application.

[mike7570]

And they look cool with dual electric fans.

[pbf777]

  Opening up the radiator cap with an electric water pump shows a whole lot more flow at idle than a mechanical pump.

     And the relevance of this observation is what? 

     Remember, typically these electric water pumps only present one speed, so that, that you witness at idle (that with the exception of an increased pumping performance as the voltage increases with alternator speed and output) is all your gonna get, any where, at any time, and besides, who needs max-flow at idle?  And since these pumps are not effective at producing pressure, this in a system of passages engineered for a certain sum of pressure to force the fluid the distance to be traveled and about the obstacles presented, the flow rate specification expounded by the manufacturer actually turns out to what otherwise is often termed as a "free-flow"sum, wonder what the flow rate is in the real world as installed? 

     Perhaps for a more relevant flow comparison, now with the mechanical pump, remove the radiator cap, accelerate the engine R.P.M's, and in some applications I would suggest you might want to stand back a little, now which pump is actually moving more water?    The mechanically driven pump provides for a variable speed and hence pumping rate, less at idle and low speed (R.P.M.'s) when the engine is producing less heat needing to be removed, and then as engine speed increases, and most often also the load, and associated heat, the pumping rate and pressure is increased (it's like magic ) as is required for reasonable temperature control.

     Also remember that the engine does require a certain sum in elevated temperature for proper function, so how does a single speed pump work effectively on a variable B.T.U. production engine?     "Thermostat", the man says, but these devices are designed around a variable orifice restriction and a pressure differential function, but remember the electric water pumps generally do not provide such, so this established engineering function is skewed; this meaning in actuality, we're just "lucky" if it all works, or if works at all!  But even then, how much of this might be perception versus reality 

     So. how about maybe radiator "shutters"............................

     Scott.

[jayb]

  Opening up the radiator cap with an electric water pump shows a whole lot more flow at idle than a mechanical pump.

     And the relevance of this observation is what? 

Ever hear of increasing the water flow through the radiator at idle to help low speed cooling?  This is why people purchase smaller diameter water pump pulleys (such as those manufactured by March), to speed up the flow and improve cooling at idle, on hot street engines.  I used to have to do that with 500+" FEs in Mustangs; the smaller diameter water pump pulley improved temperature control.  But there is no need for that with an electric pump, which I think is a big advantage for electrics.  Not to mention the power advantage.

Feel free to argue your points Scott, but in my opinion, and my extensive experience, you are wrong about this whole topic - Jay

[pbf777]

  Ever hear of increasing the water flow through the radiator at idle to help low speed cooling?  This is why people purchase smaller diameter water pump pulleys to speed up the flow and improve cooling at idle,.......................

     Of coarse, there have been multitudes of different drive rates, by the O.E.M.'s even for the same engines, but in different chassis and with different in service intentions over the decades, this in order to achieve acceptable results.  But if you need the full pump flow capacity at idle speed (as with the electric) to control the engine temperature, then your definitely in trouble at speed and under load!   

     And this is one of the reasons the electric water pump manufactures don't make the recommendation of their product for long duration, coupled with potentially high load applications, as actually they are often, in certain scenarios, counting on the "heat-sink" value within the mass of the engine unit to cover (this providing the "perceived" acceptability) for the limited capabilities of their product.   

     B.T.W., on the pressure argument: as an example back in the '90's with Ford's introduction of the "Modular" V8 engine series, shortly (year or so) after introduction the plastic induction manifolds began to experience breaching failures of the water jacket areas.  O.K. maybe plastic wasn't the best of ideas, and later in some areas this was redesigned with metal being utilized to aid in rebuffing failures, but a supportive solution for Ford came with the advent of a pressure regulating thermostat being engineered as a replacement for the original, this as with testing under certain scenarios the water pump was jacking the system pressure above 100 + p.s.i.!     A pressure gain was the intention, but somebody engineering the water pump created just too good of a pump!   

     Note that I'm not "against" these electric pumps, they do have their 'place', but that doesn't include 'every place'!  And I ain't "wrong" about that!   

     Scott.

     P.S., please do point out which statement(s) made in my text, that of "this whole topic", that is actually "wrong"?     Really, I'm a big boy, I can take it!    Besides, even if I were wrong, it wouldn't be a first anyway!   

[cjshaker]

P.S., please do point out which statement(s) made in my text, that of "this whole topic", that is actually "wrong"?     Really, I'm a big boy, I can take it!    Besides, even if I were wrong, it wouldn't be a first anyway!   

Well, since you asked. Ignoring real world experiences, with thousands of miles to back it up, under all circumstances, seems to impart a great deal of arrogance. Or in other words, you're in love with your own voice.

Overheating rarely takes place at speed, and if it does, it's almost always related to issues such as timing or air flow restriction. Granted, the increased flow at low speeds typically needs to be combined with an increase in surface area for cooling, but that is pretty much a given for any performance engine.

I also fail to see how pressure is related, except to increase the boiling point, which, in my understanding is the main point in increased running temps on newer engines (related to efficiency, which is the main goal of all car manufacturers). That is hardly the concern of older performance engines. To some degree, the argument of efficiency can be made, but IMO it's a distant secondary consideration to max available power output, which is the main goal when using electric pumps. To further argue the "pressure" relevancy, I have ran many older engines, in older cars, with a loose cap. In other words, no pressure at all. I always did this on old cars that had weakened radiators due to age, and as long as the car was able to keep the temps under control, I had absolutely zero side effects.

[pbf777]

P.S., please do point out which statement(s) made in my text, that of "this whole topic", that is actually "wrong"?    

Well, since you asked. Ignoring real world experiences, with thousands of miles to back it up, under all circumstances, seems to impart a great deal of arrogance. Or in other words, you're in love with your own voice.

     But other than providing a demonstration in true arrogance in this response, you have not presented anywhere where where my statements were "WRONG"! So how, in your own perspective did you sound, were you listening to yourself?   

    As far as for your "experiences", yours are not so unique, nor have they not been practiced by others in the past, including myself; but even if the case were that we "got away with it", does that make it a "good practice", is it without fault, forget about "proper"; so are you suggesting to others that none of their vehicles "need" a cooling system pressure cap?  If not, I wonder why the O.E.M.'s (all of them that I'm aware of) utilize such?   

     Again, just because "it worked", doesn't mean it worked right!.............Right?!   

I also fail to see how pressure is related, except to increase the boiling point,

     Pressurizing the system, well...............keeping it short, "increased boiling point" as you pointed out; then there's the issue as I mentioned previously that the pathways within the cooling system take into consideration of the pressure differentials capable of production by the pump, this in creating a "better flow volume and distribution" particularly in the not so well exposed areas to needed flow coverage; then there's the "reduction in the size of the inevitable vapor bubbles", this aiding in reducing the fluid volume displacement which would otherwise result and a reduction in efficiency; then there's the fact that the greater pressure creates a greater force in the fluid with a reduction in the stand-off or boundary layer distance, this increasing the "scrubbing" effect against the internal surfaces that the fluid comes into contact with, this aiding in better heat transfer; I don't really think the pressure increase is of sufficient value to actually be able to claim an increase in the density of the fluid, at least not to the extent of significant value, but technically this increased mass (beyond the previously mentioned of squeezing of vapor bubbles in the mix) would provide for greater heat absorption capacity and molecules compressed closer together transfer heat more rapidly, but again, are we compressing the fluid effectively?; and ...................... yep, I'm sure I missed something, probably more than one, so someone pickup where I left off!   

      Ya' know, the purpose of this forum is to "discuss" topics which might be of interest, and to perhaps aid those looking for an answer,; I'm not here to hear myself speak, how about you?   

      Scott.

[cjshaker]

I don't really think the pressure increase is of sufficient value to actually be able to claim an increase in the density of the fluid, at least not to the extent of significant value, but technically this increased mass....

Scott.

Water is not compressible, so where does the "increased mass" come from?

Nowhere did I suggest others run without pressure. I merely said I have seen no side effects if the engine does not need the added increase in temperature control. I can run my 8N at full throttle, full load, for several hours on end, with no pressure and no side effects. Been doing it for over 20 years on a weekly basis. I rarely ran pressure on many Falcon and Comet 6 cylinders I've owned and driven over the years. Again, no side effects. Obviously, I can't do this with most of the FE V8's I've owned, which build much more heat and need the added control.

If you're building vapor bubbles, then you are obviously on the verge of boiling, and obviously a pressurized system is required at that point. You can see the same effect in a pan of heated water. Typically around the 190*-200* range depending on atmospheric pressure. At that point expansion is also an issue and a pressurized system helps keep that liquid internal and not pushed out. And on the subject of pressure, the pressure builds from heat and expansion. You don't instantly get pressure as soon as a car with a standard mechanical pump is started. The thermostat will build a small amount against the pump (resistance equals pressure), but the same would happen with an electric.

Anyway, I'm done with the subject. I'll take real experience over theory every time, and all your talking points are theory.

[mike7570]

The biggest reason we use electric pumps and fans is the ability to cool the engine when needing it the most because of reduced air flow through the radiator when stopped or moving slowly. This forum caters to FE’s but most of the builds are performance based and they just don’t run as cool as a stock engine. A mechanical pump and clutch fan are probably great for stock style builds but not too many of those around here.
Being able to shut down the engine but keep the water circulating and fans drawing air through the radiator is critical in high performance / racing engines.

[pbf777]

Water is not compressible,..............

    I think, I was alluding to that fact as relevant in this topic, sorry if I wasn't clear, but of coarse the perhaps more accurate statement might be that water "for most practical purposes" is considered as non-compressible; another good reason to utilize only "distilled" water.  But of coarse water (in the liquid state) does expand and contract with temperature change.     

You don't instantly get pressure as soon as a car with a standard mechanical pump is started.

     No, not in the generally understood scheme of things as most only understand the pressure created as the result of heat expansion, and this as generally regulated by the pressure venting value of the radiator cap.  But this reference is actually on the "low-pressure" side of the system; and in my previous example of the plastic intake manifold failures associated with the Ford 4.6 modular V8's, this excessive pressure problem was most prevalent with the engine not fully warmed up and thus with the thermostat creating too great a restriction, a value perhaps appropriate for temperature control, but apparently not appropriately matched for the pumping flow volume and the pressure capability of the pump, this as intended for the "high-pressure" side of the system.   

The thermostat will build a small amount against the pump (resistance equals pressure), but the same would happen with an electric.

     The first half of this statement acknowledges, to some degree, my statements above; but the remainder falls into the void that most of the electric pumps can not provide effectively.   

     And don't go away mad................. we're just trying to have a discussion here, and isn't that the whole idea of the Forum?   

     Scott.

[hbstang]

I am looking at puting an electric water pump on my 521 bbf (sorry not FE). I wanted to get a Meziere 55gpm unit but in their photos it looks like they have changed the inlet location on the pump housing so now it angles forward as it goes down, making it unusable as a stock bolt on reaplacement and completely unusable for my application. However the CVR 55gpm unit retains the stock inlet location but I don't know much about them. This will be used in various drag n drive events so I want something that is reliable. On Meziere's website they show the same unit unit with the inlet in the stock location and in their instructions they the picture I have included. I sent them an email asking for a clarification. Thanks, guys.
 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mez-wp308b/make/ford

the 55gpm inlet would not clear my innovaters west balancer,and i was going to modifiy the inlet but am going to a remote pump for fan/radiator clearance on 68 mustang 557.
jay has proved the ultimate torture test for electric water pumps on street/race  cars beyond any doubt!

pbf777 you can write all you like but your not going to change the minds of millions of car owners whose car came factory with electric water pumps or the masses for drag and drive cars for the last 20 years of drag week etc!