Author Topic: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.  (Read 4222 times)

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blykins

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2024, 05:07:33 PM »
Can a hydraulic roller be reliable in the 6500-7000 range.  ?    Existing combo wants to run to 6500 with a flat tappet and want to duplicate that without fear of cam failure.  I really don’t mind a solid flat tappet if it can be made reliable with today’s offerings

Yes.  I have many hydraulic roller engines out there in that rpm range. 

Towd56, a member here, has one of my 390's with a hydraulic roller in his Galaxie wagon. Has made over 250 passes and has put 4000-5000 miles on it.  Launches at around 5000 rpm, shifts at 7000.  Factory non-adjustable rockers.

Solid flat tappets can certainly be reliable.  Pretty easy with a good lifter, such as a Crower EDM lifter. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
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www.lykinsmotorsports.com
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Rory428

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2024, 09:40:48 AM »
I am still mainly a solid, flat tappet guy, but my 347 SB Ford has Morel "Hi Rev" hydraulic roller lifters, and I drop the clutch at 6600, shift it as 7000 RPM, and hit 7200 at the finish line. So the right hydraulic lifters, and the correct valve train and oil will let them hit the higher RPM range. My Morel lifters came with instructions specifying what oil grades to be using, so I have been running 5-30 in my 347.They were quite addemant about not using thicker oils with these lifters.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

Falcon67

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2024, 01:22:41 PM »

LOL - wish I had the link to the "wrong" video.  T

LOL

https://youtu.be/2B3DPykr2C0

Which was posted in response to a topic about a dealer shop using roloc disk on an oil pan repair.

!@#$#!  Well - that's a fail! 

driveamerican

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2024, 11:39:58 AM »
One very interesting video he did was on flat tappet grinding. His findings made me rethink flat tappet problems. I would have posted the video but couldn't figure out how, hopefully the builders on here find it and give some feedback on their thoughts.

blykins

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2024, 12:58:10 PM »
One very interesting video he did was on flat tappet grinding. His findings made me rethink flat tappet problems. I would have posted the video but couldn't figure out how, hopefully the builders on here find it and give some feedback on their thoughts.

The biggest flat tappet cam failure cause is valve spring loads.  I'm not saying that there aren't other causes, but IMO, that's the biggest one.  Cylinder head manufacturers sell all kinds of heads that are "for flat tappet cams" and the valve spring loads are stupidly high.  Nobody needs 140 lbs seat for a hydraulic flat tappet. 

Combining that with the fact that most guys working out of their garage don't check the spring loads, or even know that they need a LOT less than what they have for break-in.  So instead of pulling the inner springs or swapping valve springs, they're bolting heads on and letting it eat. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
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My427stang

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2024, 01:58:01 PM »
I second the motion from the gentleman from KY.

Lots of build failures that blame cam and lifters when they are the effect you see, not the cause

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

driveamerican

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2024, 12:55:46 PM »
He covered that he also went through Rockwell test on failed lobes and lifters he covered cam cores where they come from. I wouldn't argue with anyone on this site I am a mechanic not engine builder or machinist. I will say it's the closest to an answer I've seen for DIY mass KIT failures. The crown is so off center their is no way for the lifter to spin in my opinion.

6667fan

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2024, 07:41:11 AM »
The short travel Morel hydro rollers I got from Brent for my 482 help with making peak power @6500. Engine will go to 7100 before nosing over. The oil specs from Morel call for 5-30. VR-1 Racing oil doesn’t come in that weight so I have been using their 10-30 for several years.
JB


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My427stang

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2024, 08:07:05 AM »
He covered that he also went through Rockwell test on failed lobes and lifters he covered cam cores where they come from. I wouldn't argue with anyone on this site I am a mechanic not engine builder or machinist. I will say it's the closest to an answer I've seen for DIY mass KIT failures. The crown is so off center their is no way for the lifter to spin in my opinion.

I appreciate you sharing.  My issue with his evaluation is that the crown is really only one area that affects rotation to allow burnishing of the cam and lifter contact points.  The cam lobe is offset and has taper, which really is driving  dynamic force for spinning, and although some crown may help that, I can't swallow that crown differences are the cause of what people report.

What I have seen in a wide variety of failures that have occurred with  customers that went on their own, no particular order

1 - Poor prelube with the drippy red stuff or equiv
2 - Excessive turning without oil pressure
3 - Binding anywhere from lifter bore through valve guide
4 - Lifters sticking in bores at assembly
5 - Failure to prelube an engine, or prelubing with starter
6 - Spring pressures not checked or incorrect
7 - Bad start practices - timing off, carb not ready resulting in excessive crank, or immediate shut down after start
8 - Wrong oil
9 - Not following break in procedures

Now I can't argue with the guy finding lifter differences, in fact I applaud him for his time an research, but I haven't seen a single engine that didn't break in nicely and last a long time if each of the things above were addressed, and the ones that came in almost always had one or multiple issues above, so it's hard for me to blame the lifter.

That being said, having good quality parts is hard to argue with.
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

machoneman

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2024, 09:32:35 AM »
Agree with all your points Ross but one sticks out to me. Sticky lifter bores. Having done long ago a number of in-car cam swaps, we noticed that the removed lifters had deposits on the lower (cam side) ends. Taking out the lifters showed similar crud inside the bores, hard to remove even with determined cleaning. We noted that some of the new lifters had trouble spinning in the bores. We went back in with lacquer thinner, acetone and even gasoline until the lifters spun easily.

Yes, if they can't spin, the lobes will go flat in a hurry. 
Bob Maag

My427stang

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2024, 04:17:37 PM »
Agree with all your points Ross but one sticks out to me. Sticky lifter bores. Having done long ago a number of in-car cam swaps, we noticed that the removed lifters had deposits on the lower (cam side) ends. Taking out the lifters showed similar crud inside the bores, hard to remove even with determined cleaning. We noted that some of the new lifters had trouble spinning in the bores. We went back in with lacquer thinner, acetone and even gasoline until the lifters spun easily.

Yes, if they can't spin, the lobes will go flat in a hurry.

Amen, and so easy to diagnose, if they don't slide in nicely, stop LOL
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

GerryP

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2024, 04:49:28 PM »
...
Amen, and so easy to diagnose, if they don't slide in nicely, stop LOL

I would regard the disassembly to be the tell tale.  If the lifters don't come out easily with just finger pressure, you know you have something you need to address.  Certainly assembly is where attention to detail pays off and a lifter fit problem better be identified and fixed.

pbf777

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2024, 11:29:48 AM »
     Lifters tending to swage in the block bores is not uncommon; this particularly with replacement lifters presenting a different external barrel shape (particularly the location and width of an oil belt-line or weight reduction relief band, and/or with camshaft lobes of different base circles and/or lobe lifts, all of which positions the lifters load surfaces on territory within the bores not as previously utilized.  Therefore with engine block prep work we always lightly hone (no, not a "ball-hone", with a proper honing mandrel) the lifter bores to remove deposits, knock down steps and burs, and if only to make more visual, imperfections that might be concerning; then measure (generally not having removed more than a tenth or two at the most from the bores' original diameter), and I even keep test lifter examples that I can drop through the bores at the time of this work just as a quick fitment double check before completion.    :)

     Scott.

Falcon67

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2024, 09:48:10 AM »
I just set up a set of solid rollers on an hydro roller cam, using Brent's recommendation of .005 lash hot.  I should have the car at the strip in a couple of weeks and will let everyone know how it ran.  Two things so far - 1) it's dang hard to work with a .005 piece of floppy steel and 2) when set it kinda has that "Singer Sewing Machine" sound to it LOL.  Note - Hot vs cold lash on this iron/iron 351C is the same. 

blykins

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Re: HYD Roller Lifter Problems - Powell Machine You Tube.
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2024, 09:50:05 AM »
Note - Hot vs cold lash on this iron/iron 351C is the same.

That's the way it is on FE's too.  I've never seen lash change between cold/hot on an iron/iron combo.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports