Author Topic: *** Update with photos *** Burnout and tire hopping remedy?  (Read 3194 times)

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pbf777

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2023, 12:07:47 PM »
Here is a sketch showing my angles. The car has a front to rear rake/angle of 3*
Crank is 3.5* to the floor
Driveshaft is parallel 0*
Pinion is 1.5*
http://www.fairlanet.com/images/pinion-angle-fairlane.jpg


     Note that the appropriate greater downward pinion angle deviation, that from the engine's crankshaft and transmission mainshaft center-line, is something that is established in testing (but mostly proves to be assumption), and is based of the amount of pinion-climb/axle-rotation that takes place under the greater torque applications instances in the specific chassis as powered.  So, the more the power/torque applied, particularly on the "leave" the greater the pinion-angle deviation needs to be, this particularly of issue on a leaf-car.  But only to a point, as particularly on hard braking (top-end shut-down) the torque reversal causes the axle to rotate the opposite direction which could lead to excessive u-joint angles, which may lead to if only excessive vibration, but up to possible premature failures.    :o

     So with that caveat said, if I'm understanding your drawing correctly, your depiction states that you have approximately 2° of pinion-down-angle deviation (note: the floor, nor the drive-shaft positions, though handy references, matter), which with the O.E.M. leaf-spring suspension, is generally considered insufficient.  But, as you stiffen the axle attachment fixturing (thru "clamping", and/or strong-arming), this further limiting its' deflection, then a lesser value would be suitable.   :)

     But now, is any of this really going to change your concern at hand of excessive "axle-wrap-up"?   :-\

     Scott.

pbf777

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2023, 12:09:05 PM »

 F

My427stang

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2023, 12:59:16 PM »
Just be careful, think of the acceleration and load changes when that car was airborne, which it is when it gave you no rubber marks.  Engine goes from pushing 3000+ lbs during acceleration to free wheel, then back to a shock load.

Ironically, the hoppiest car I have ever worked on was a 67 Fairlane.  I was young and didn't know much back then, as Shady said, we clamped the springs and added slappers, (not inferring Shady's advice is bad, but just a reference to me back then) and it was good enough for a healthy small block, but I think the real issue is the long-ish front run of the spring and pinion angle changing as that spring wraps on a stock setup.  We had never known to measure though

Easy to measure pinion angle on 4 jackstands or a  4 post lift, but where it should be to prevent wheelhop  is a bit of a technique and trade-off.  If you have bendy springs (technical term LOL) you need more static pinion angle, but that means when they aren't wrapped, you may have dissimilar planes from tranny to pinion, at extreme cases that causes vibration or u-joint wear. 

I know you didn't want them, but that's the beauty of the Calverts.  Beefy leading front section, and flexible rear section prevents the total wrap up but still rides nice.

I'd say get some numbers, it's all relative angle, crank centerline/tranny, driveshaft, and pinion all together will tell you where you are.

Ross,
Here is a sketch showing my angles. The car has a front to rear rake/angle of 3*
Crank is 3.5* to the floor
Driveshaft is parallel 0*
Pinion is 1.5*

Sketch, front is to the left.
http://www.fairlanet.com/images/pinion-angle-fairlane.jpg

I don't understand all of your drawing, let me do a little read back

You have 3.5 degrees tail down at the tail shaft, when compared to the driveshaft at zero, that is also  3.5 degrees difference.  This has nothing to do with wheel hop, but typically, 3 degrees is considered max for long-term u-joint life.  Zero is bad as the bearings don't roll much, but eventually you work that joint more as you have a steeper angle, just FYI.  To fix that, you'd have to drop the tail of the tranny or raise the engine a little

Zero for the driveshaft as the car was setting there...got it, it's just comparative for angles.

Pinion angle looks odd to me, but I may be misunderstanding,  if you drew a long straight line out of the tranny (at your 3.5), during acceleration the pinion should move up to match that straight line at 3.5 or 3.0.  At rest, it would be some value more than 3.5 that points the yoke toward the pavement. 

Question - Is your rear yoke, steeper than the  transmission, less steep?
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Posi67

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2023, 01:44:45 AM »
My uneducated opinion is you need to get the Cal-trak split mono springs. Their bars are basically a poor mans 4 link and when combined with a stiff stock front leaf spring the whole thing goes into a bind situation under acceleration. All other suggestions here are also valid but with the mono spring, the front 1/2 of the spring can flex and let the bars do their job.

That said, I've had wheel hop at the track with all the good parts installed and it comes down to tire (slick) pressure and shock settings. Wheel hop also seems to be a stick car only thing unless something else is way out of whack.   

manofmerc

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2023, 05:03:05 AM »
The easiest thing to do would be adding 1/4-1/2 turn of preload and that is free! My 67 comet has the complete Calvert rear suspension it has worked good for me Calverts adjustable shocks are a good addition too.Try giving it some preload and remember you have two holes for the bar maybe try the upper hole it is supposed to hit harder. On a good day I have gotten a 1.46 60ft.But I have fighting traction issues since I installed a bigger(502 460 based) engine in my car .But I have been getting good results with playing around with different settings.Good luck.Doug

fairlaniac

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2023, 08:52:23 AM »
Just be careful, think of the acceleration and load changes when that car was airborne, which it is when it gave you no rubber marks.  Engine goes from pushing 3000+ lbs during acceleration to free wheel, then back to a shock load.

Ironically, the hoppiest car I have ever worked on was a 67 Fairlane.  I was young and didn't know much back then, as Shady said, we clamped the springs and added slappers, (not inferring Shady's advice is bad, but just a reference to me back then) and it was good enough for a healthy small block, but I think the real issue is the long-ish front run of the spring and pinion angle changing as that spring wraps on a stock setup.  We had never known to measure though

Easy to measure pinion angle on 4 jackstands or a  4 post lift, but where it should be to prevent wheelhop  is a bit of a technique and trade-off.  If you have bendy springs (technical term LOL) you need more static pinion angle, but that means when they aren't wrapped, you may have dissimilar planes from tranny to pinion, at extreme cases that causes vibration or u-joint wear. 

I know you didn't want them, but that's the beauty of the Calverts.  Beefy leading front section, and flexible rear section prevents the total wrap up but still rides nice.

I'd say get some numbers, it's all relative angle, crank centerline/tranny, driveshaft, and pinion all together will tell you where you are.

Ross,
Here is a sketch showing my angles. The car has a front to rear rake/angle of 3*
Crank is 3.5* to the floor
Driveshaft is parallel 0*
Pinion is 1.5*

Sketch, front is to the left.
http://www.fairlanet.com/images/pinion-angle-fairlane.jpg

I don't understand all of your drawing, let me do a little read back

You have 3.5 degrees tail down at the tail shaft, when compared to the driveshaft at zero, that is also  3.5 degrees difference.  This has nothing to do with wheel hop, but typically, 3 degrees is considered max for long-term u-joint life.  Zero is bad as the bearings don't roll much, but eventually you work that joint more as you have a steeper angle, just FYI.  To fix that, you'd have to drop the tail of the tranny or raise the engine a little

Zero for the driveshaft as the car was setting there...got it, it's just comparative for angles.

Pinion angle looks odd to me, but I may be misunderstanding,  if you drew a long straight line out of the tranny (at your 3.5), during acceleration the pinion should move up to match that straight line at 3.5 or 3.0.  At rest, it would be some value more than 3.5 that points the yoke toward the pavement. 

Question - Is your rear yoke, steeper than the  transmission, less steep?

Here is a simplified sketch.

On my "Cal-Tracs" these are a set that I reverse engineered from a picture in 2002. I then build my own that are about 99% alike. In 2003 I got my fingers slapped (phone call or email, I forget?) from Calvert. I agreed to never discuss or show pictures. That said is one reason I'm not interested in a mono-spring. It may not work or fit based upon my reverse engineered parts. I've contemplated getting cal-tracs but have not pulled the trigger yet. There is nothing wrong with my parts so for now I'm just going to work with them. I'm also not setting the car up for drag racing. I may take it to the strip on occasion but I'm not a racer.

http://www.fairlanet.com/images/driveline-angles.jpg
Doug Bender
1966 Fairlane 427+/5 Spd TKX

chilly460

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2023, 02:44:39 PM »
Interesting a couple guys mentioned Fairlanes being bad.  My ‘66 (460/Toploader) will do it at a roll too, and if you throw a passenger in it gets worse.  Was thinking of clamping the front of the springs, it’s just a street car so wasn’t looking at CalTracs

Posi67

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2023, 02:06:23 AM »
Wheel hop is the result of the front half of the spring wrapping up. The old "slapper" bars used to work great to eliminate this. As Rory mentioned, the Mopar's worked great without any aids because they had a shorter and stiffer front half that gave up ride quality but hooked anywhere. The S/S springs were and upgrade for higher HP cars.

A Caltrac bar won't stop this because it doesn't support the spring. Other previous suggestions like clamping the front half of the spring, isolator removal if you have them or adding an extra 1/2 leaf to the front stack will help. Expensive double adjustable shocks will also help but not in most peoples street budget.

Tunnelwedge

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2023, 05:44:44 AM »
The KYB's are the worst shock you can use. The shock is always in hard rebound. Pushing the rod out.
It makes the car pogo with big power and a clutch.
Stock oil shocks at a modest price will help stop the pogo. Air pressure, tire selection.
Fairlane's have wheel hop. The spring is long and the axle is set back almost in the middle.
If it still has the rubber isolators they really help the wheel hop.
What works on the Mustang is not exactly the same as the Fairlane. Close but the Fairlane is much more shock
sensitive I have found over the years.
Do you have a sway bar? It helps also.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2023, 06:33:51 AM by Tunnelwedge »

My427stang

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2023, 07:03:43 AM »
You have a couple things going on here in my opinion

1 - Although not related, your front joint, at 3.5 degrees angle, relative to the driveshaft, is considered above the 3 degree most companies like to see.  That being said, a little weight in the car, a little squat, it likely a little lower angle.  Has nothing to do with hop though

2 - At 1.5 degree nose up for the rear, but above the plane of the driveshaft, it has me thinking.  Normally, we see the two planes of the pinion and engine with the pinion slightly lower.   I'd likely talk to a chassis guy, but it seems that when you put power to it, the pinion will wrap and make the two angles pretty close. That is good for vibration, however, what I just don't have the experience with is if it matters that when loaded the pinion is pointing up.

Mechanical engineers or chassis guys please chime in . The reason I am stuck is gyroscopic effect should try to straighten those joints out as speed rises, which will try to straighten the spring out in this case, which should unload the wrap up, but I think could drive the load unload and hop, not really a good thing.

At this point, I'd likely add some preload, and I may even see if I could put a couple buddies, or some weight in the car. Then see what your angles are.  If nothing else, the preload will stabilize the rear a bit and change instant center a bit to load things differently

The drag racers can talk shocks better than me, but I personally would rather see some mechanical control of the wrap up, I just don't have the experience to tell you what shock changes do
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

pbf777

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2023, 10:32:16 AM »
     Your overthinking the pinion and u-joint angle theories as relating to wheel-hop; these devises and their relative positioning have more to do with their mechanical survivability, not at leveraging the rear differential in an attempt in damping unappreciated movement.   ;)

     As stated by others, the u-joint manufactures want some angle deviation in order to create rotation of the rollers, this so as to induce movement of the lubricant and to resist the tendency for the rollers to state the cross-trunnions. Generally this being something of the range of 1° - 3°; greater value sums in the 3° - 5° are still generally considered acceptable with as expected lifespans of in-service usage; but after something approaching 7°, or more, anticipate a reduction in service life.

     Applied torque loads are better handled with lesser angles, so in high load applications the straighter the drive-line is to the out-put shaft and pinion gear stem the lesser are the forces on the u-joint and lesser are the drive-line parasitic losses in performance delivery.  Therefore, generally the intention is to have the drive-line in the straightest alignment possible at the highest torque loading instance, this being of when the vehicle has loaded the rear axle "on-the-leave", as this is the most abusive period for these parts.

     Now, there are considerations for pinion-angle relating to aiding in loading the rear suspension and increasing the "bite" (tires), but this mostly is of greater concern, and reeling results in lighter vehicles, particularly suspensioned Altered and Dragster cars.   

     "Shocks" would probably be better understood if we in America would utilize the proper vocabulary in their identification, this being "Damper".  This as they are intended to "dampen' motion; they are not intended to "arrest" motion completely. the later is better made the responsibility of that which is intended to locate the axles' position, and let the shocks do that for which they were intended as a suspension motion control devise.   :)

      And "some" weight in the car, shouldn't change the pinion angle in its' relationship to the mainline of the power-plant & transmission dramatically, as this is generally a consideration by the O.E.M., but it will change the driveshaft and u-joint angles.

      Scott.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2023, 10:37:47 AM by pbf777 »

JamesonRacing

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2023, 02:05:25 PM »
I have Caltracs on two of my Fairlanes and don't recall ever experiencing wheel hop with them, regardless of spring type.  One pulls the wheels hard, runs 9s.  Both currently have Calvert mono-leafs, but no issues before changing out factory multi-leaf springs.

I always use a bit of preload, even if only as much as you can get by hand-tightening them when loaded.  It might ride a bit stiffer, but it takes the slop out of the suspension.

Why in the world are you still running street BFGs?  Dangerous with the power you're car is making and with the TKX.  Swap them for a pair of M/T Street Radial R 275s and you'll find them to be a game changer.  They will also last a remarkably long time so long as you don't do long smokey burnouts.

Did you remove the factory rubber isolators from your springs and mount the pad directly onto the spring?  Also, pad must be braced at the back and should be using 1/2" U-bolts.
1966 Fairlane GT, Silver Blue/Black 496/C4 (9.93@133)
1966 Fairlane GT, Nightmist Blue/Black 465/TKO (11.41@122)
1966 Fairlane GTA Conv, Antique Bronze/Black, 418EFI/C6
1966 F250 C/S, Rangoon Red, 445/T19
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My427stang

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2023, 10:52:33 PM »
     Your overthinking the pinion and u-joint angle theories as relating to wheel-hop; these devises and their relative positioning have more to do with their mechanical survivability, not at leveraging the rear differential in an attempt in damping unappreciated movement.   ;)

     As stated by others, the u-joint manufactures want some angle deviation in order to create rotation of the rollers, this so as to induce movement of the lubricant and to resist the tendency for the rollers to state the cross-trunnions. Generally this being something of the range of 1° - 3°; greater value sums in the 3° - 5° are still generally considered acceptable with as expected lifespans of in-service usage; but after something approaching 7°, or more, anticipate a reduction in service life.

     Applied torque loads are better handled with lesser angles, so in high load applications the straighter the drive-line is to the out-put shaft and pinion gear stem the lesser are the forces on the u-joint and lesser are the drive-line parasitic losses in performance delivery.  Therefore, generally the intention is to have the drive-line in the straightest alignment possible at the highest torque loading instance, this being of when the vehicle has loaded the rear axle "on-the-leave", as this is the most abusive period for these parts.

     Now, there are considerations for pinion-angle relating to aiding in loading the rear suspension and increasing the "bite" (tires), but this mostly is of greater concern, and reeling results in lighter vehicles, particularly suspensioned Altered and Dragster cars.   

     "Shocks" would probably be better understood if we in America would utilize the proper vocabulary in their identification, this being "Damper".  This as they are intended to "dampen' motion; they are not intended to "arrest" motion completely. the later is better made the responsibility of that which is intended to locate the axles' position, and let the shocks do that for which they were intended as a suspension motion control devise.   :)

      And "some" weight in the car, shouldn't change the pinion angle in its' relationship to the mainline of the power-plant & transmission dramatically, as this is generally a consideration by the O.E.M., but it will change the driveshaft and u-joint angles.

      Scott.

Scott, I disagree with angles of 5 degrees being acceptable.  Build it if you want, and some low speed, short wheelbase crawlers may be forced to  live with it, but not for a 50+ inch  shaft.  I have not seen Spicer or anyone else recommend anything like that.  I do agree the primary purpose for the degree of angle is durability and proper movement of the rollers, with parallel operating planes planes under load for efficiency and smoothness, but it is not the only factor.  However, I do agree and thought that me mentioning that 3.5 had no bearing on wheel hop made that clear

Second, weight in the back shouldn't change things at the pinion, I agree, but often it does.  Very hard to believe you think that Ford got this right for a 500+ HP engine in a likely lowered car, as no OEM I know has gotten it right in that era, coil or leaf spring.  Regardless, my recommendation was looking at all angles with the car loaded, not just pinion angle instead as a response to the 3.5 degree angle he reported at crank centerline.  You stated as do I, it will change and HAS to if the rear axle rises.  Will the pinion angle change? maybe, but it definitely twists under load.

Additionally, that angle can matter, as "how hard it hits" can contribute to "how hard it loads and unloads"

Finally, of course the primary force causing wheel hop is torque wrap up and unload, however, there are forces call secondary, tertiary, or even better just call them contributory.  There are other forces at play, one of which is gyroscopic.  Nowhere did I say it is primary, nor leverage, but it does exist

Now, after a little wasted time bantering.  One thing I would look at are the spring perches, especially if this is new behavior.  Aftermarket housings are far less susceptible, but stock perches are not too great, and more often than not, broken when you get any real power.  It would not be unreasonable to believe one or both could be broken, but held together with the U-bolts.  I can't be sure it would hop, but it sure wouldn't launch right, and worth checking for no other reason that the hop could have hurt them

In the end, without seeing what is happening, my assumption is the main leaf is the culprit, but not only the front, I have seen clamped front springs wrap in the rear as well and open between leaves to look like a bird spreading it's feathers.  If the perches are good, potentially verifying all spring clamps are good and in the right position to mitigate some of the movement as well.

I am still not convinced that your angles are right under load, but given this response I have to be clear that I do not think that is the cause of hop

« Last Edit: September 01, 2023, 10:59:01 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Barry_R

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2023, 06:22:54 AM »
I worked through this many, many, many years ago.
When I was working through my nitrous "habit"...
Stickyish street tires will try to hook - then "loose it" and try again to rehook - basketballs the tire and spring.
Better shocks will help.

But....
Clamp the forward spring segment.
At the last point before I went to ladder bars I had an extra forward leaf "half" welded to the axle spring mount.
The spring mounts were heavy duty Mopar parts welded and gusseted to the axle.
And we had an adjustable pinion snubber.
And the whole kibosh had clamps every four inches or so.

Car would move around a fair amount under power but was always smooth and controllable.

As you are right now, the car is not in contact with the ground during rebound - pretty easy to find a ditch or guardrail or curb if it comes down weird.

hbstang

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Re: Burnout and tire hopping remedy?
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2023, 04:54:36 PM »
also get good shocks and make sure your spring purches are not rounded and loose.one trick i did on my 68 fastback,was to use clamps on the front of the leaf springs.they worked really well,but also had stiff springs as well.didnt need any traction devices but that!