Author Topic: FE Power Injection  (Read 1302 times)

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cammerfe

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FE Power Injection
« on: May 14, 2023, 09:37:15 PM »
Hey Jay---
Has there been any recent update regarding the  cross-over injection to go with your heads and other top-of-engine parts? Perhaps I've missed something, but the subject is of enduring interest.
Thanx

KS

jayb

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Re: FE Power Injection
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2023, 07:19:42 AM »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cammerfe

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Re: FE Power Injection
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2023, 10:41:46 PM »
Hi Jay---and all the rest of you too.

I solicit your thinking, using the following set of 'supposes.'

Build an engine for street use, with the following components:

1. Use a Shelby block utilizing the largest realistic bore possible.
2. Shorten the stroke as much as is realistic, staying at about 7 liters for the combination.
3. Choose all other parts with the aim of having longevity and rev-ability.
4. Use a properly chosen hydraulic roller cam and other components with the same aim in mind.
5. Use your high exhaust heads, properly prepared for ultimate flow.
6. Use your cross ram manifold, prepared as follows:
    Prepare the casting minus the individual butterflies and necessary machining. Instead of the flares, create a pair of slip-in four-into-one extensions with a
    single throttle body in the collecter position on each side.
7. Create headers to carry a turbo on each side with the cold side of each turbo mated to the above-referenced induction extensions.
    Use the latest, best (Holley?) ECU to provide injection and ignition control using a crank trigger.
8. Plan to run on pump E85

For daily street use, the turbos should be waste-gated to put out only nominal boost. This would, in effect, result in round about 100 % efficiency from the engine while contributing to longevity from 'overall mildness.' For the inevitable occasional necessity to 'turn up the wick', the system should be capable of something better than one bar of boost.

Please pontificate. :)

KS
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frnkeore

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Re: FE Power Injection
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2023, 02:48:15 AM »
Quote
6. Use your cross ram manifold, prepared as follows:
    Prepare the casting minus the individual butterflies and necessary machining. Instead of the flares, create a pair of slip-in four-into-one extensions with a
    single throttle body in the collecter position on each side.
7. Create headers to carry a turbo on each side with the cold side of each turbo mated to the above-referenced induction extensions.
    Use the latest, best (Holley?) ECU to provide injection and ignition control using a crank trigger.

If your injecting into the manifold ports and not running fuel in the intake tract, you should only need a "log" type manifold to feed the cross ram.

I would put the throttle body's on the turbo intake.
Frank

blykins

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Re: FE Power Injection
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2023, 04:57:50 AM »
Hi Jay---and all the rest of you too.

I solicit your thinking, using the following set of 'supposes.'

Build an engine for street use, with the following components:

1. Use a Shelby block utilizing the largest realistic bore possible.
2. Shorten the stroke as much as is realistic, staying at about 7 liters for the combination.
3. Choose all other parts with the aim of having longevity and rev-ability.
4. Use a properly chosen hydraulic roller cam and other components with the same aim in mind.
5. Use your high exhaust heads, properly prepared for ultimate flow.
6. Use your cross ram manifold, prepared as follows:
    Prepare the casting minus the individual butterflies and necessary machining. Instead of the flares, create a pair of slip-in four-into-one extensions with a
    single throttle body in the collecter position on each side.
7. Create headers to carry a turbo on each side with the cold side of each turbo mated to the above-referenced induction extensions.
    Use the latest, best (Holley?) ECU to provide injection and ignition control using a crank trigger.
8. Plan to run on pump E85

For daily street use, the turbos should be waste-gated to put out only nominal boost. This would, in effect, result in round about 100 % efficiency from the engine while contributing to longevity from 'overall mildness.' For the inevitable occasional necessity to 'turn up the wick', the system should be capable of something better than one bar of boost.

Please pontificate. :)

KS
.

Why shorten the stroke as much as possible?
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

jayb

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Re: FE Power Injection
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2023, 06:33:58 PM »
Ken, if you ran a 4.4" bore, a 3.5" stroke would get you close to 427 cubic inches.  I assume the only reason you would do that would be to let the engine rev higher safely.  In that case, I don't think that a hydraulic roller cam is the right choice; a solid roller would be better.

A better plan in my opinion would be to increase the stroke to get some cubes, which will make more power and allow you to run the hydraulic roller, because you won't need to rev as high to make the power - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cammerfe

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Re: FE Power Injection
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2023, 10:29:06 PM »
My suppositions are based on the possibility of quick revving, not necessarily high revving. The large bore is to make sure the valves have the least chance of shrouding. I believe the torque bias created by the longer stroke might take away from street drivability. Low boost, quickly, will likely contribute significantly to loss of 'street manners' as it is. Don't exacerbate.

In my musings, I imagine a car ready to drive at between 2000 & 2500 pounds. The long design of the total runners will help to homogenize the incoming charge. That was one of Smokey Yunick's ideas---I just copied. (Besides, 'bling' is also a factor.)

Thinking out loud.

KS

blykins

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Re: FE Power Injection
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2023, 04:38:35 AM »
My suppositions are based on the possibility of quick revving, not necessarily high revving. The large bore is to make sure the valves have the least chance of shrouding. I believe the torque bias created by the longer stroke might take away from street drivability. Low boost, quickly, will likely contribute significantly to loss of 'street manners' as it is. Don't exacerbate.

In my musings, I imagine a car ready to drive at between 2000 & 2500 pounds. The long design of the total runners will help to homogenize the incoming charge. That was one of Smokey Yunick's ideas---I just copied. (Besides, 'bling' is also a factor.)

Thinking out loud.

KS

A short stroke doesn't mean it will rev/accelerate quickly, nor does a long stroke mean that it will accelerate slowly. 

A 361FT is not zippy by any means, even with having a 3.5" stroke.  Same with the 332 FE, not a chainsaw revver with a 3.300" stroke.  In the same token, a 5.750" stroke NHRA mountain motor will get to 8000-9000 rpm very quickly. 

The stroke number is just a number.  The rotating assembly acceleration comes from rotating assembly mass and also how much power the engine is making. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

My427stang

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Re: FE Power Injection
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2023, 08:03:11 AM »
Ken, If I understand what I think you are saying, I think you'd need to look at sequential installation of twin turbos, not an easy task or packaging, OR, if they make them, a variable vane turbo set like the diesels use.  I am not sure if they hit the gas engine market for the boost levels and RPM though.  (Although my Cummins hits 24 psi day in, day out and I have 130K on it, bought it new).  I do not know if ant Holley ECM does that to that level

My take then on the decision of stroker vs no stroker is really based on turbo volume, if you can get there in a street designed turbo that acts like a mass produced engine daily, with available parts, go big inches, if not, that 427 will still be making some big numbers anyway.  With a street blower, we saw 1.69 hp per cid with no end in sight for a peak, with 8 psi.  That'd be getting into some very big numbers with 14+

So the alternative is to can the crazy sequential idea and go for the smallest turbo pair that can feed the engine at a predetermined RPM, I bet there is some crossover point where the cid and turbo size makes sense to allow some low end boost but still behave well on top, or even toss the low end idea in the trash and use it to be able to launch the thing.  It'd drive nice with EFI so you may not even notice there is a "loss" of low end

The other things now becomes injector requirements, when you go a combination of not big and big boost, a double injector, or additional injectors somewhere become helpful because when you size them for the big boost, they get sloppier down low.  This would likely be compounded by the E85

Each of those makes the smaller engine a little "easier" maybe not easy, but lots of LS motors to look at for lessons learned at that size. 

The last one is cam requirements, one thing I learned from my last unnaturally aspirated motor is, good heads plus forced induction makes a baby cam almost too big duration wise but still needs lift to use the port, great heads like Jays, probably even more so, which means you get into a lobe design challenge.   I chose not to use as much lift as I should have for stability, but you may get into a point where you'd need a solid roller.  I don't love the idea of a solid roller, but depends on what you need to do with the lobe

I am not getting that fancy, but collecting parts for my next one and I think it's likely going to be a 505-508 EFI hyd roller, ported TFS, ported Victor, with an intercooled centrifugal system.  Jay's heads would be better, but it's likely going to be silly as is and more of a weekend cruiser than a drag car
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cammerfe

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Re: FE Power Injection
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2023, 10:43:58 PM »
Thank you all for your input to the discussion and the different points I raised.

Quite possibly I should have said 'response' instead of rev-ability. I still remember my first Mustang---a 'K' '65 I traded away my '64 Custom/427 for. As I've mentioned in other threads here, I got an engine from EEE that was part of the GT40 development program. The crank in that engine was a forged 2.87 stroke item and the heads were real 'GT40' that had been been gone through. I drove the car for more than a year with a 715 Holley that Harold Droste went through for me mounted on a 'Cobra' high-rise intake. The long tube headers were from Gratiot who had someone local make them. The response of that engine was substantial.

I ultimately put a Paxton VS 59 blower on it. The 715 Holley was replaced by another carb H. Droste made for me. In order to get it to run right I had to switch from the brass floats to a set of the nitrophyl variety. The boosted fuel pressure surge would otherwise bend the brass when I stepped off the gas, and jam up the operation of the needle and seat.

I had no trouble with 396 chevy IIs but then I'd have to find a lighted place to straighten out the brass floats.

KS