Author Topic: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.  (Read 2075 times)

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wideglidejoe

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Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« on: March 08, 2023, 11:46:01 PM »
A fellow FE fan, asking for help on pistons and CR based on parts I'll describe below.  I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I recently purchased a newly rebuilt FE, never installed into a vehicle or fired up on a dyno, at an estate auction.  The gentleman that built it unfortunately passed from a sudden heart attack before he could install it into his project.  I had an acquaintance that I trusted bid for me over the phone because I could not get to the auction due to weather.

I purchased it based on external bolt on parts that I could see in pictures, which included new Edel heads, an older design but NOS Edelbrock F 427 intake, Edel alum water pump, Canton 8 qt road race pan, C7ME-A block, Cobra Le Mans valve covers, an electronic dizzy of unknown brand (MSD look alike), and a Pro Performance Plus dampener and double aluminum pulleys.  I bought it for less than the cost of the  external parts I could see.

After getting it home to OK from CO, I started exploring the internals.
*The heads are Edel 6008 castings, which are 76cc chambers per Edelbrock, which I wished were 72cc, but I didn't have the casting #'s when I bid.
*PRW roller rocker arms, shafts and stands, 1.76 ratio.
*Crane Cams pushrods .080", #34621 9.065"
*Comp Cams mechanical roller 33-781-11 Magnum 243/243 w/Comp Cams solid mech roller lifters.
*C7ME A block is 4.08", so it's a .030" over 390, w/stock stroke of 3.78 (both B&S measured by me). The executor of the estate wasn't a car guy, he told me he thought it was a 390, he was correct, but that's about all he knew.  A son in law, also not a car guy, told me all he remembered was that it supposedly had Le Mans rods.

My dilemma is the pistons.  They are flat top w/double valve relief notches.  With the heads off, the pistons sit .070" below the deck at TDC w/the Fel Pro .040" head gaskets removed.  With the .070" below deck and .040" head gaskets and 76cc chambers, my rough calculations are a CR in the 8.xx range.

I haven't removed the pan yet to check the rods; stock 390 or Le Mans?

Q 1. Assuming I replace the pistons, what distance below deck at TDC should I be aiming for, still using the Fel Pro .040" head gaskets, and the 76cc Edel alum heads?  .010"? .015"?  I want the engine to be able to run on 91 octane pump gas, as 93 isn't readily available in my neck of the woods. Still hoping for upper 9's/lower 10's for compression ratio.

The only reason I can guess he built it this way, he was putting it into a mid-70's F250 4x4, with auto trans.  The truck originally had a 360, some 360's (maybe all?) had pistons way below the deck at TDC.  Maybe that's what he was thinking?

This is going in a 63 1/2 Galaxie 500 XL, along with a C6 tranny.  Induction will be a 406 3x2 intake w/Holleys and 406 shorty cast iron headers on the exhaust side. The 9" rear currently has either 3.89 or 3.91 rear gears with an open diff.  I will be changing to a Trac Loc unit with the 3.9 gears, but also set up another center section with 3.25 gears for cross country cruisin' since tranny doesn't have OD.

Q 2. Le Mans rods (IF they really are in there)??  I've never had a set before, even tho' I've had lots of FE's since the 60's.  I know they're heavy, do I keep them, or switch back to stock or aftermarket 390 rods?  From everything I've read, all FE rods are 6.488" (including Le Mans?) other than some 352 rods.  I've read about problems with the cap screws and pins/dowels getting loose.

OK, that's enough!  Thanks in advance for any advice &/or info!  Again, sorry for being so long winded!

Joe


frnkeore

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2023, 04:50:43 AM »
Tye highest compression, commonly available, stock type piston, is the L2291, with valve reliefs and a 1.775 CH. It should give you .017, deck clearance on a stock height block. But, if you tear it down, I would deck it .010/.015 (10.160/10.155), to true the decks. They can be off, a lot.

That will get you to ~9.2 CR. You could mill the heads to raise it more.

The cam is probably going to be to big, especially for a stock converter. But, with a 4sp trans, and a point more compression, it would get a lot of attention :)

The PRW rockers, have a history of breaking.

Or, with the 8/1 compression, you put a blower on it ;)
Frank

JimNolan

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2023, 08:36:41 AM »
If you use L2291 pistons and if the block has ever been resurfaced(-.007" for resurface) you'll have .010" from top of piston to top of block. Use the .027" Comatic MLS gasket and coat both sides with copper-coat. Depending on the cam you're using (for example I used a 268/268 comp cam) you'll get a engine with .037" quench running 9.6 CR / 7.9 DCR, which would be respectable and able to run 87/89 octane gas. Unless you plan on shaving .020 off a 10.4 second ET @ 7000 rpm's, I get rid of that solid lift cam and put a nice Hydraulic cam and lifters in it. Having a questionable rocker assembly is risky at most if you're looking for dependability. Sell that rocker assy to someone that likes working on their car along side of the road. Just my take. I like working on an engine once, I like driving all the time.

wideglidejoe

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2023, 11:09:42 AM »
frnkeore & Jim Nolan, thank you for your replies!  I really appreciate it!

In no particular order, responding to your comments/suggestsions;

Both of you mentioned the L-2291 pistons, so that's what I'll get.  Either of you have opinions on the Le Mans rods?  I also have a set of stock 390 rods from the engine I've pulled from the Galaxie.  I've read a lot on the Le Mans rods, both pros (heavy duty, for NASCAR) and cons (heavy, for street service, slow to rev up, getting loose over time).

I'll try to determine if the block has been decked already, I know it had machine work done.  If I can't verify, I have access to a good machinist/machine shop to check it.  He knows his FE's, I've used him on two other FE's I have.

Besides decking the block, if needed, I was already leaning towards milling the heads and using Cometic gaskets, thank you!

I like the idea of having .010" deck clearance plus the .027" gasket thickness, any ideas on how much to mill the heads before getting into trouble on intake manifold bolt holes matching up?  I don't really want to do any milling on the intake unless absolutely necessary.

PRW rocker arms, shafts & stands; I'm not familiar with them, I didn't know they were prone to breakage/unreliable.  Thank you!  But they look good! ;)  I have a set of OEM Ford adjustable rockers from a 406, I guess I can use them and sell the PRW stuff.

Mech roller cam........I'm not adverse to going a little looser with another torque converter, as long as it isn't too much.  I've converted to manual disc brakes on front, so vacuum for a brake booster isn't an issue.  I'll reconsider cam choice.

Again, I based this purchase on external parts that I could see.  It now seems that some of the internal parts he chose are not suited for my application, and I also question how well suited they were for his application, but I'm not gonna judge him on that as he's not here to defend himself.  May he rest in peace!

Thanks again for your input! 



« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 11:11:25 AM by wideglidejoe »

oldiron.fe

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2023, 12:03:04 PM »
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              no matter what you build NEVER use any 50+ year old rods-could be OK -BUT you have no idea what use they my have had-if one brakes you could wipe-out some or ALL of your parts!!!                            I have 60years of tune/race/build of FEs ----NEW sideoiler break a rod @ 3000/3500 -lost block head and crank   had paper thin 1.5/2 in below pin --new fomoco short block     I never use                         old rods-to rebuild with good bolts and good machine work=cost just buy molnar/scat/eagle etc.=no worries     oldiron
66' Fairlanes 427 (08/26/67- present)
66/67' Fairlanes
70' Mustang Fastback
66' Dually

JimNolan

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2023, 03:43:08 PM »
Just a note: I've been told that to resurface a block (just a light cut to flatten the surface) you're going to see they have to shave .005-.007" of material off so the cutter works right. I know mine was resurface and the most I could get was .012" from top of piston to block with those pistons. And, I had a 4.05" bore and used a .027" MLS gasket w/4.08" hole opening. Keep that in mind because Cometic can give you whatever you want for the same price. Mines been running over 10 years with no problems. And, I wouldn't be afraid (at least I haven't had trouble) with stock rods and new bolts. Although I did use Eagle Crank and H-beam rods in my build.

Rory428

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2023, 07:17:45 PM »
Concerning the L2291 pistons, not sure if all the Sealed Power/Speed Pro/Federal Mogul pistons are all like that now, but my machinist buddy recently built a 428 FE, using the L2303 pistons, and said they were a real PITA. Seems production has been sent to India, and the quality has really gone downhill.  He ended up having to buy 3 sets of pistons to end up with 8 that were acceptable to him, and even then the weights were not very consistent.
As for the connecting rods, if the engine was balanced with LeMans rods, chances are changing the rods will require rebalancing, as I recall, my LeMans rods were about 75 grams apiece heavier than regular 390/428 3/8" "nut and bolt" rods. Although many Stock Eliminator racers used the lighter rods, to be honest, for a street and mild race engine, I really doubt that you would ever feel the difference in performance. As for the capscrews of Lemans rods "coming loose", I have never had that experience, although I always ran a tap thru the rods, and used new rod bolts. Back in those days, I used either SPS or Ford Power Parts bolts, as ARP was not around then, or if they were, not as well known 40+ years ago. I never had a LeMans rod fail, with the better bolts, but again, that was over 40 years ago, but I have ran hundreds of very low 10 second 1/4 mile time using resized 3/8" C7AE-B rods with ARP bolts.
Between the PRW and factory adjustable rockers, I would likely use the Ford rockers, I have never owned PRW, but I have looked at them at a trade show, and they looked pretty sketchy, and just felt rough on the shafts. And personally, I wouldn`t want to be running a solid roller on a street car,
Also, I wouldn`t get rid of the F427 right away, not the best intake around any more, but I would much prefer the F427 and a 750/780 Holley over the 3x2 setup. I had a factory FE 3x2 setup on my 57 Ford  many years ago, and found the power, driveability, and especially gas mileage, were all better when I replaced it with a single Holley.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

frnkeore

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2023, 07:31:47 PM »
I have the same 76cc heads as you do and my paper work, says that for every .005 you mill them, you will loose 1cc. So, if you mill them .030, you should have a ~70cc chamber.

Running the numbers, for CR, with a .010 x .027 deck and gasket, you'll have ~10.1 CR and with your cam, it will get you 7.55 DCR, plenty good for pump gas BUT, you'll need to be careful on WOT, full load timing.

You'll have to mock it up to check the fit.

If you didn't know it, the top head bolts get 110 lb of tq and the bottom row 100 lb. Only tq the intake manifold, no more than 25 lb.

Also, you need to make sure that the valve spring are compatible with the roller cam. The stock Edel springs, won't be.

Regarding the rod, I too have heard about unreliable results with the Le Mans rods, mostly because they have already had a hard life but, if you get new bolts and make sure the dowels fit tight, x-ray them for cracks and flaws and last, check both the big and small end for in spec tolerance (expensive combo), I wouldn't be afraid to use them but, they may cause a balancing issue.

That said, a set of 390 rods, with ARP bolts, will most likely be ok.
Edit:
Be sure to have both ends checked to be in spec. The big end, after installing ARP bolts.

You will need, at least a 2500 converter, for that cam and 4.30/4.57 gears and of course headers, would really make it romp.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2023, 02:44:19 AM by frnkeore »
Frank

Katz427

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2023, 07:28:02 AM »
You can use the Speedpro, pistons, but you would be better off spending more. I have an old set used and they make the new ones look like something cast in someone's back yard. They are heavier, and nowhere, near as nice, as Rory stated. Quality ? For a grocery getter, stock rebuild, maybe.

wideglidejoe

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2023, 11:30:18 AM »
Thanks to all for your replies and info!!  I'm old, but never too old to learn something new from others!

I'll have to check out the Speed Pro pistons quality.  I can also get an opinion and input from the machine shop I use, he builds a lot of engines too.  He even does some engine work for the Oklahoma 405 Street Outlaws, or whatever that show is called.

I need to check out the Le Mans rods, see if they look old or have been reconditioned, etc.  If I change rods to a stock 390 rod, they'll need to be checked out and resized, and new bolts, or just buy new rods.  I read a lot of stuff on other forums about the dowels on the Le Mans rods getting loose, not so much the cap screws.

If I deck this block, or determine that has already been decked, I'll be happy if the new pistons are .010", .013", or .017" below deck at TDC.  I can always make more compression with Cometic gaskets &/or mill the heads a little.  If I have the heads milled, I'll take them down to whatever level we can get away with without having to mill the intake bottom & sides.  If they wind up 73cc or 71cc, etc, that's what it'll be, the rest will be with Cometic gaskets.

frnkeore, yes, I knew the torque on the heads was 110 & 100, thank you!

Rory, I agree with you about the single 4 bbl performance and mileage.  I have a couple of other FE's, and a SBC project, I just like multiple carbs.  I have a 428 that's .030"+ and stroked to 462 cu in., running four 48 IDA Weber's.  This 63 1/2 Gal project, I drove it for a while with the 3x2 setup (before blow by and low oil psig made me park it).  With the carbs and linkage set up correctly, it did pretty good on mileage and performance, considering what it is.  None of my project cars (4) are every day drivers, just local cruise-ins and short trips to other towns for the same.

Thanks again for everyone's comments, keep 'em coming!  I'm leaving Okla later this afternoon, we'll be in CO for spring break & skiing, but I'll try to keep up with y'all on my phone.

As far as the PRW parts, y'all have already convinced me to not use them, I'll use the 406 adjustable rocker arms. 

My Galaxie 500 XL was a 390 Z code from the factory.  When I bought it partially done, it was badged as a 406, and I was told it was a 406, even tho' I knew the VIN was a Z.   After driving it a while, then pulling the "406", I discovered it's a standard b&s 390 short block, with all the 406 stuff added to it; badges (fenders & valve cover decals), 3x2 intake/carbs, dual point dizzy, 406 heads, cam/lifters/adj rockers, cast iron shorty headers, etc.

Y'all take care!










wideglidejoe

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2023, 04:19:08 PM »
Update............

I've been busy, but I've managed to do a little work on the engine project.

I purchased forged Speed Pro L2291F30 pistons & rings, they arrived today.  Now I need to switch them onto the rods and back in the block and check with modeling clay to determine valve clearance.  Depending on valve clearance and compression ratio calcs, I may choose to slightly shave the heads a little &/or switch to Cometic head gaskets.

Turns out, it did NOT have Le Mans C6AE-E rods as I had been told.  It has like new looking C6AE-C 390/428 rods.  I was a little concerned about the locating dowels being worn or getting worn & loose on the Le Mans rods, plus they are heavier and slower to rev on a street engine, so I'm OK with this.

The old 390 that I removed had the 406 solid lifter cam and adjustable rockers, along with all the other 406 stuff, so I'm gonna keep the Comp Cams solid lifter roller cam and go with a slightly higher stall speed converter in the C6.  Most of the time the car will have the 3.89 or 3.91 rear gears that are in it now, so it will be fun around town and to/from cruise-ins.  I plan on setting up another 9" center section with either 3.00 or 3.25 gears to swap out if I ever take it on a Power Tour, etc.

Henrysnephew

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2023, 08:33:56 PM »
   Joe, the last time I used 2291s I had to radius the intake valve reliefs to accommodate 2.09 valves.  Reliefs were deep enough for the .600 lift hyd roller cam, but valve timing events have to be taken into consideration as well when checking p/v clearance.  Randy M

My427stang

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Re: Questions about a FE purchased at estate sale.
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2023, 07:01:20 AM »
   Joe, the last time I used 2291s I had to radius the intake valve reliefs to accommodate 2.09 valves.  Reliefs were deep enough for the .600 lift hyd roller cam, but valve timing events have to be taken into consideration as well when checking p/v clearance.  Randy M

I have also seen left and right very different for radial clearance on an L2291, be sure to check
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