Author Topic: Wideband A/F Tool  (Read 1247 times)

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priobe

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Wideband A/F Tool
« on: February 20, 2023, 07:42:38 PM »
I would like to know what everyone is using for A/F wideband on true dual exhaust?

I’m thinking of getting Innovative Dual wideband. Does anyone have any experience likes / dislikes?

Thanks

PaulProe

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Re: Wideband A/F Tool
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2023, 08:10:59 PM »
Phil
Good to hear your back playing with the Cobra.

I have and use an Innovate single-channel O2 sensor. Just move it from side to side as necessary. Worked fine when I was tuning my Weber's

The product works great. Customer support leaves a little to be desired. They used to have a forum and you could get a lot of answers there but now, you need to call in and there's only one person who is knowledgeable. Just my experiences with the item

You'll need an extension pipe on their tailpipe adapter. You want the input as far up the side pipe as you can get so you don't get reversion and a false signal. I used their adapter and then pressed a piece of copper tubing on the end so the pickup point is about 12" further into the sidepipe. There's enough pulse in the exhaust that the adapter by itself sucks outside air into the adapter and you get erroneous signals.

Paul Proefrock
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 08:22:17 PM by PaulProe »

6667fan

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Re: Wideband A/F Tool
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2023, 10:20:48 PM »
I have run Innovate products for years in several cars. It’s difficult for me to recommend them at this point. I would suggest you look at AEM also. Keep in mind that we are talking about $150-$350? kits here. For that kind of money you get something that works well for awhile. You might be fortunate and not have any problems but you kinda get what you pay for. Make sure you end up with Bosch or better O2 sensors regardless of which companies’ product you choose. Cheap sensors that don’t work will have you chasing your tail.
JB


67 Fairlane 500
482 cid 636/619.
Tunnel Wedge, Survival EMC CNC heads, Lykins Custom Hydraulic Roller, Ram adjustable clutch, Jerico 4-spd, Strange third member with Detroit Locker, 35 spline axles, 4.86
10.55@125.74 1.46 60’

priobe

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Re: Wideband A/F Tool
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2023, 10:26:54 PM »
Hey Paul, Always nice to hear from someone you know.

To be honest, I have the handheld unit LM-1 but was thinking of getting a gauge to keep it a little more permanent. I used the handheld with bung in both pipes. However, switching back and forth was getting a little tiring for me so was thinking maybe getting a gauge would make things a little more enjoyable.

Since I change my distributor to Progression Ignition and got a better experience, this kind of sparked my interest again.

The handheld is nice because you can move it from car to car.

Thanks for the response.

Phil

jayb

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Re: Wideband A/F Tool
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2023, 09:19:16 AM »
I've used Innovate but I much prefer the Ballenger Motorsports unit.  Get the one with the NTK sensor, they seem to last longer than the Bosch sensors.

https://www.bmotorsports.com/


Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

CDXXVII

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Re: Wideband A/F Tool
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2023, 07:40:46 PM »
I would love to try one to experiment with. Interesting that the Ballenger unit says it is compatible with leaded and unleaded gasoline. I had always heard that the sensor life would be shortened if used with leaded.

jayb

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Re: Wideband A/F Tool
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2023, 09:40:02 PM »
Based on running on the dyno, which is always using race gas, the Bosch O2 sensors fail fairly quickly, but the NTK sensors seem to last forever.  Of course, they are about twice as expensive as the Bosch sensors, but worth it IMO.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

e philpott

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Re: Wideband A/F Tool
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2023, 01:21:18 PM »
Jay , they list three NTK sensors , which one are you using ?

jayb

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Re: Wideband A/F Tool
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2023, 05:38:45 PM »
I just use the production grade sensor.  Looks like they've come down a little in price, or else the Bosch sensors have gone up...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Falcon67

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Re: Wideband A/F Tool
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2023, 09:53:27 AM »
FYI on Bosh o2 sensors - an recent email from Performance Trends:

) Extend A/F Sensor Life  A/F sensors (sometimes called O2 sensors, lambda sensors, wide band sensors, uego sensors) are very useful for measuring the engine's A/F ratio.  A/F ratio indicates how rich or lean the motor is running. Running the motor too rich or lean and you lose power.  You also risk damaging it from detonation (spark knock) if too lean, or washing oil off the cylinder walls or building up deposits if you are too rich.    for an FAQ about the correct A/F to run for different fuels.

We've gotten feedback that the newer Bosch LSU 4.9 A/F sensors (with the D shaped instead of rectangular shaped connectors ) can sometimes have very short life. The older systems with the rectangular Bosch LSU 4.2 sensors are no longer available.  The LSU 4.9 sensor does have some advantages with accuracy and not requiring recalibration, but we have sometimes seen very short sensor life, as short as 20 power runs or so. We've discussed this with some customers and it seems like heating them up quickly from room temperature, or heating them up often reduces sensor life.  Some things to consider to extend sensor life would be:

Keeping your A/F controller powered up all the time.  One customer says he keeps it powered up for months at a time and has not had a problem with sensor life.  Remember the sensors can be hot so when you swap them between engines on your dyno, do not get burned.

Start the motor to get some exhaust heat to the sensor to start it heating up.  Then power up the sensor and controller so the sensor's heating element does not have a big job to do, just maintain a high temperature.

Avoid anything that could produce condensation that could accumulate upstream of the sensor.  Water drops that could come in contact with the hot sensor could cause a sharp temperature change and damage the sensor.

6667fan

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Re: Wideband A/F Tool
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2023, 11:54:41 AM »
Most systems are now using LSU 4.9.  The 4.2 is more likely in the rear view mirror.
That is interesting about the idea of leaving one powered up. As far as warming them with exhaust prior to powering them up most manufacturers’ literature say not to do that.

I have resigned myself with the Bosch units to be glad if I get a season out of them. Even with running unleaded at the track they don’t last for me.
I buy the Bosch 017 025 through Amazon and buy an accompanying insurance plan. After the sensor goes bad I get my purchase price credited back to my account. I just was reimbursed for a sensor I bought in 2020. ( The Assurant protection plan for 3 years cost 13.95.) That Bosch unit was $67.00 at the time of purchase. That is about as low as I have seen for a true Bosch unit. There are sensors out there claiming to be Bosch, they have the same part number but do not have Bosch on them. Innovate would charge around a $100 for the Bosch 017 025 sensor.



« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 06:55:34 PM by 6667fan »
JB


67 Fairlane 500
482 cid 636/619.
Tunnel Wedge, Survival EMC CNC heads, Lykins Custom Hydraulic Roller, Ram adjustable clutch, Jerico 4-spd, Strange third member with Detroit Locker, 35 spline axles, 4.86
10.55@125.74 1.46 60’

Falcon67

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Re: Wideband A/F Tool
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2023, 02:35:26 PM »
I'm strongly looking at EFI for both methanol and a gas tune in the race car.  I just found the HEGO discussion interesting.  Personally, I'd only leave the sensor in the header as long as it took to build a decent tune, then put it back in the tool box.  I don't see any need for closed loop tuning for a drag car.  Especially don't want the ECM fiddling with fuel mix in the middle of a bracket race.  I'd imagine at any rate that a sensor would last a bit longer with methanol than with VP110 leaded race fuel.