Another one bites the dust. Cam lobe

[DWKgalaxie]

Well, I got my 390 together and down it the car. .060 4.11 bore stock 390 crank and rods, ARP bolts thru out. DSS 5003-4110 10cc dish with 10.08 comp with 72cc heads. ProMaxx shocker 200 heads with 2.20 and 1.73 valves. Performer RPM intake and Performer RPM 800 carb. Now the problem. Edelbrock Performer RPM cam. This is a COMP CAM and lifters. I know I'm not the first, but I just had a cam lobe flatten out or the lifter failed and mushroomed out. Just one lobe that I can tell. The lifters will all slide up out of the bores easily except one. It comes up and stops just as the contact surface comes up to the bore in the block. Like a 400k mile old lifter. I went thru the break in process by the numbers. I have built several Chevy and Mopar motors thru the years and never had a cam break in problem. This is my first FE build, although I've had four before, just never put a cam in one. This really sucks. I guess its time to pull it all the way down with all new bearings, disassemble the roller rocker shafts and inspect them. Maybe even look at the rod bushings. Do you think that I am just one of the many many to be bitten by these COMP CAMS defects they are putting out? Any suggestions for a replacement ROLLER cam and lifters and pushrods with around the same specs as the Performer RPM cam that is 296 Adv int/exh 236 @.050 Duration 572 lift int/exh with 108 LSA 103 int centerline. I understand using the 128 rule that the 108 LSA should be correct for me. This is going in a 64 Galaxie fastback with a TCI streetfighter C6 and a TCI breakaway 2400 converter. I will be running 3.89 gears. I know, a bunch of questions. But any thoughts or ideas would be great. Thanks

[blykins]

Not trying to be argumentative here, but why do you think it's necessarily Comp Cams' fault?   All of the cores that are used come from about 2 core houses. 

Most of the time, when I see someone smoke a cam, it was because of one of these things:

1.  Didn't check that lifters rotated freely in bores before putting intake on.
2.  Too much spring pressure. 
3.  Not the correct oil. 
4.  Cranked it too long before the engine fired.

I hear, "I never had trouble breaking in cams until recently" quite frequently from some of the "older generation".  It's because they were used to breaking cams in with factory valve spring loads.  Today, if you buy a new set of cylinder heads, the spring loads are WAY over what should be used for a flat tappet camshaft.

FWIW, to this day (knock on my head), I have yet to have camshaft issues.  I don't do a ton of flat tappet builds, but I do use them. 

When I set up the heads, the majority of the time, I will set the seat loads up below 100 lbs seat and the open loads way under 300.  If I have to pull the inner springs out to do that, then I do.  If I have to completely swap to another valve spring, then I'll do that too. 

Gotta have *quality* engine break-in oil, such as Joe Gibbs, Brad Penn, etc.  If you use a regular motor oil, even with some kind of additive, chances are it won't be enough. 

To answer your other question, the first thing I'd do is check the filter.  If there's not much metal in it, then I would drop the pan and check a couple of bearings.  If everything looks good, then I would make a decision on what you want to do with the new cam, then flush the engine a time or two with fresh oil before starting. 

Comp Cams seems to get the blame when cams go flat, but it's because they are the largest camshaft supplier that I know of.  Obviously, when you look at a statistical bell curve, their failures will be higher just from the sheer numbers of cams they put out, but I would venture to say that most of the time, it's the builder's fault.   There are mishaps that can be attributed to the supplier (possibly a bad heat treat, etc.) but generally it's not the cam grinder's fault. 

EDIT:

I don't use ProMaxx heads, but I went to their website and looked for spring loads.  If you bought their heads setup for a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft, they are advertising 145 lbs seat load.  If you didn't pull the inner springs out or change springs for break-in, that's why the cam lobe went flat.  They're showing 145 lbs seat and 350 lbs open at .600".  Too much spring load for a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft, especially for break-in.

[blykins]

I will tell you that most FE combinations will lose horsepower with a single pattern camshaft, so a 236/236° at .050" cam is already not in your favor.
 The ProMaxx heads show about a 70% intake/exhaust flow ratio, so in actuality, you will need something like an 8-10 degree split.  The LSA is based on how much overlap an engine needs.  A 400 inch engine with a modern cylinder head will not want a 108 LSA, *especially* with the advertised durations that come with that camshaft that you have.  I'd be surprised if you didn't need a 111-112-113 LSA to make efficient horsepower. 

Your cam has 80° of overlap, which is about 15-20 degrees more than what you need, depending on what your goals are.   Your DCR is about a half point low as well with that camshaft.   It would sound good and that's about it.  Engine combinations need a specific amount of overlap to function, depending on the applications and goals.  If you don't have enough overlap, then your engine is not efficient.  If you have too much overlap, then you're pushing power out the exhaust pipe and your engine is not efficient. 

There are no magic rules that spit out LSA's.  Vizard himself will tell you that his rule only works on SBC's and I'm skeptical that it even works on Chebbys. 

I don't necessarily think you need to switch to a roller camshaft, because that would require changing pushrods, distributor gears, cam, lifters, etc., etc.  I'll wait to hear what the spring loads are before I give further advice. 

[machoneman]

Think your #1 (Didn't check that lifters rotated freely in bores before putting intake on.) is a major cause. Older engines have varnish buildup on the bores, especially below the area swept by a new higher lift camshaft (lifter now travels further down/up).

Have had instances where one or two bores (older engines) prevented easy lifter rotation. One was easily fixed with more cleaning while oddly the other needed a brake hone (something I used to avoid in all cases!) to allow rotation.

Funny, but it is easy to check all 16 in any V-8 w/o the cam installed. Many don't and suffer a flat lobe. 

[My427stang]

Well, I got my 390 together and down it the car. .060 4.11 bore stock 390 crank and rods, ARP bolts thru out. DSS 5003-4110 10cc dish with 10.08 comp with 72cc heads. ProMaxx shocker 200 heads with 2.20 and 1.73 valves. Performer RPM intake and Performer RPM 800 carb. Now the problem. Edelbrock Performer RPM cam. This is a COMP CAM and lifters. I know I'm not the first, but I just had a cam lobe flatten out or the lifter failed and mushroomed out. Just one lobe that I can tell. The lifters will all slide up out of the bores easily except one. It comes up and stops just as the contact surface comes up to the bore in the block. Like a 400k mile old lifter. I went thru the break in process by the numbers. I have built several Chevy and Mopar motors thru the years and never had a cam break in problem. This is my first FE build, although I've had four before, just never put a cam in one. This really sucks. I guess its time to pull it all the way down with all new bearings, disassemble the roller rocker shafts and inspect them. Maybe even look at the rod bushings. Do you think that I am just one of the many many to be bitten by these COMP CAMS defects they are putting out? Any suggestions for a replacement ROLLER cam and lifters and pushrods with around the same specs as the Performer RPM cam that is 296 Adv int/exh 236 @.050 Duration 572 lift int/exh with 108 LSA 103 int centerline. I understand using the 128 rule that the 108 LSA should be correct for me. This is going in a 64 Galaxie fastback with a TCI streetfighter C6 and a TCI breakaway 2400 converter. I will be running 3.89 gears. I know, a bunch of questions. But any thoughts or ideas would be great. Thanks

I am going to jump on this too. 

First, sorry about this, sucks to have to do things a second time

Second, something was wrong in break-in or setup, BUT, I do think a hyd roller is a much better bet.  Not to poke at you in any way, but would love to hear what the pressures were, the lube you used, how you prelubed and any details just to see if we could ID a cause to help others

As far as the cam and LSA.  that 128 rule is sort of goofy and almost always ends up in too much overlap if you use a lobe that matches use,  even Vizard doesn't seem to follow it and has some numerical weighted adjustment he refers to for some engines.  In fact, Vizard seems to indicate that he isn't even supposed to talk about it without publisher rights, real odd stuff, and gimmicky IMHO

That being said, valve size per cid is interesting, but there are so many other characteristics to make an engine match use that LSA alone won't even address.   Buy a custom cam spec'd by someone who does this a lot. I don't peddle parts unless I am building the engine, Brent can set you up, or of you really want an opinion happy to help

Last asking for the "same" as the RPM cam, likely is limited as Brent said.  Although I have built a few single pattern builds, even those with decent numbers, it's generally a trade off for another behavior that is equally important.  I generally see better with more exhaust lobe and proper overlap.  How much of each depends on use and head design.

Hope to hear back on what happened, always good to find a cause

[gdaddy01]

did your block have a cam thrust plate on it? if older block the cam was the thrust plate , easy enough to over look.

[Rory428]

Excuse my ignorance, but what the heck is "the 128 rule" for camshafts? Never heard of such a thing.

[Katz427]

The "128" rule is a mathmatical correlation,  by David Vizard, for specially SBC engines. He developed it from his years of dyno testing, and development on the SBC. He states, that the "128 rule" only worked on SBC With modern cylinder heads. He also states he DOES NOT  have enough data to confirm that the 128 rule holds for any other engine. You can find David's  explanation of the "128" rule on his site.  The main point of Vizard's work is that the old traditional methods and practices for camshaft design, are not applicable too today's modern cylinder heads, with much improved design.

[6667fan]

Brent, I think I’m going to print your first response and carry it around in my wallet. That way I’ll be prepared when choosing a flat tappet camshaft comes up with my buddies, ( which it does with some frequency).  My response will be, “ yes, you can run one if you check all these boxes.” One problem out there is not every builder is cool with being asked if all the boxes have been checked. I had to sever ties with one builder cuz asking too many questions made him feel like I was challenging his skill set. ( We’re still friends, he just doesn’t build engines anymore for me).

I feel your response was very informative.

[e philpott]

I take a swag . New Cam and Lifters SUCK and light spring pressure is the answer to the problem . Engine run stand and light spring pressure are the answer , break in , switch out springs and then install into vehicle is what works . We never had to do this in the late 70's and 80's even with stout spring pressure they didn't wipe very often and when they did wipe used lifters were involved so something has changed . You can have everything right except the spring pressure and still wipe , Chevy guys have the 1.3 ratio rocker for break in but what ever the reason we never used to have to do this stuff for a cam to live

[blykins]

I'm not saying that it's never the cam or lifter manufacturer's fault, but I will tell you, a cylinder head that comes with a 145/350 lb valve spring package for a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft is not configured correctly.   I have ran hydraulic roller camshafts with 150/350 lbs of spring load. 

Guys that don't know any better will assemble the engine and throw a new cam/lifter set in the engine without looking at valve spring loads.  It's a recipe for disaster.  There's not a street hydraulic flat tappet camshaft out there that needs 145 lbs of seat pressure. 

It's just not the 1960's anymore.  Camshafts back then required way less spring load because they were just lazy old cams.  Sixty years of technology improvements have netted camshafts that are more aggressive.   There's just a different set of rules now. 

[gregaba]

Just a question.
I would be interested in a set of low psi springs just for break in. One's that would take 2500 RPM for 20 pr 30 minute's.
Have 2 engines I will be installing in the next year and I would just as soon change the whole set of spring's then having to take out the inner spring and then having to reinstall.
Would need ones that would work on a 429 and a 428. and if they would work on 351 C's that would be a bonus.
Any suggestion's?
Greg
 

[e philpott]

I agree the OP had too much pressure at 145 but we still had 120 130 seat pressure back in the 80’s and not wiping cams even the big one

[blykins]

Greg, I certainly wouldn't buy a whole new set of springs for a cam break-in.  You'd have to find a set that worked with the retainers and locators you have, or otherwise you're looking at changing those out too.  Check your spring loads without the inners, that's the easiest way. 

[gregaba]

Thanks Brent
It was just a thought, as I am known to be a little lazy.
I did have a set of 60 year old 390 spring's I was going to use but I guess I lost them when I had the junk dealer hall off 3 trailer load of part's that I needed to move to make room.
Greg

[bulletpruf]

Not trying to be argumentative here, but why do you think it's necessarily Comp Cams' fault?   All of the cores that are used come from about 2 core houses. 

Most of the time, when I see someone smoke a cam, it was because of one of these things:

1.  Didn't check that lifters rotated freely in bores before putting intake on.
2.  Too much spring pressure. 
3.  Not the correct oil. 
4.  Cranked it too long before the engine fired.

I hear, "I never had trouble breaking in cams until recently" quite frequently from some of the "older generation".  It's because they were used to breaking cams in with factory valve spring loads.  Today, if you buy a new set of cylinder heads, the spring loads are WAY over what should be used for a flat tappet camshaft.

FWIW, to this day (knock on my head), I have yet to have camshaft issues.  I don't do a ton of flat tappet builds, but I do use them. 

When I set up the heads, the majority of the time, I will set the seat loads up below 100 lbs seat and the open loads way under 300.  If I have to pull the inner springs out to do that, then I do.  If I have to completely swap to another valve spring, then I'll do that too. 

Gotta have *quality* engine break-in oil, such as Joe Gibbs, Brad Penn, etc.  If you use a regular motor oil, even with some kind of additive, chances are it won't be enough. 

To answer your other question, the first thing I'd do is check the filter.  If there's not much metal in it, then I would drop the pan and check a couple of bearings.  If everything looks good, then I would make a decision on what you want to do with the new cam, then flush the engine a time or two with fresh oil before starting. 

Comp Cams seems to get the blame when cams go flat, but it's because they are the largest camshaft supplier that I know of.  Obviously, when you look at a statistical bell curve, their failures will be higher just from the sheer numbers of cams they put out, but I would venture to say that most of the time, it's the builder's fault.   There are mishaps that can be attributed to the supplier (possibly a bad heat treat, etc.) but generally it's not the cam grinder's fault. 

EDIT:

I don't use ProMaxx heads, but I went to their website and looked for spring loads.  If you bought their heads setup for a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft, they are advertising 145 lbs seat load.  If you didn't pull the inner springs out or change springs for break-in, that's why the cam lobe went flat.  They're showing 145 lbs seat and 350 lbs open at .600".  Too much spring load for a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft, especially for break-in.

Lots of great info here - thanks for detailing this, Brent!

[Royce]

What is harder on a flat tappet lobe,  High seat pressure or high open pressure?. They often go hand in hand but it depends on the spring rate.. I can get 140 on the seat and still get only 250 on the nose if I pick a certain spring, or vice versa.

[hwoods]

Flat Tappet cam failure

https://youtu.be/ohR5rcuYPr0

[gregaba]

Thanks for posting this.
I guess I will have to give Brent a call on my roller.
Wanted to run my D cam for a while but really don't want to take a chance of ruining a new engine.
Greg

[DWKgalaxie]

Hey guys, First of all, thanks for all the replies and input. I appreciate that none of you really blasted me as sometimes happens in a forum. I like what you said Brent about the valve springs. I did single them up for break in. I did use break in oil but to be honest it was Jegs break in oil that is supposed to have all the ZDDP in it that you are supposed to need. Maybe that was part of it. All the lifters did rotate in the bores at any position. I made absolutely sure of that considering the age of this block. It didn't turn that much before firing on up. during break in I heard a pretty loud tapping at the rear of the passenger valve cover, I put a stethoscope to the valve cover, and I could feel that a rocker arm adjusting nut was barely hitting the baffle for the breather. I of course corrected that after I shut it down. It all seemed to be going well at that point. The next day, with the valve covers off, I checked to see if I had any rockers that had any lash or anything looked out of place. I didn't see anything wrong at this point. I pulled the rocker assys off and put back in the inside springs and set everything back to zero lash to fire it up again and adjust a bit on the timing and idle mixture. During this run as the minutes went along I heard a valve tick, like one was a bit loose. It didn't take long for that tick to turn into a loud clack so I shut it down. You are probably right Brent about too much spring pressure for a hydraulic flat tappet. I took the guy at ProMaxx's word that these springs were good for that kind of cam. On one lifter, just one, the intake on #2, the lifter wore  3/8" off the contact surface. The lifter would still spin in the bore. So, seeing this, out came the motor and trans. When I tore the motor down, all the lifters would come out the top but the bad one. It stayed in till the cam came out and I pushed it down and out. It wore all the way down into the spring inside the lifter. All the bearings had metal in them, and it killed the bearing surfaces of the crank. So I have another crank and bearings here, and I'm waiting on cam bearings.
   I also ordered a Howards Cams hydraulic roller, CL253385-10 cam and lifter kit, Adv Dur 288 int 294 ex 235@050 int and 241@050 ex .560/.560 lift LSA 110 Int CL 106. I also ordered their springs that Howards recommended #98632 that are 145@1.94 and 422 @1.25 pressures. I'll order my pushrods from either Trend or Manton. I realize a custom cam grind might give me a few more horsepower and more torque here or there, but since this is going to be a street car and occasional bracket car, it will be what it is. Again, I do appreciate all you guys giving me your input and expertise on this. I'll let you know how things go if I can ever get any parts here. I'm a retired partsman, 10 years in auto parts then 31 years at a Volvo truck dealership and getting parts now is a thousand times worse than our worst nightmare was before I retired in Jan 2020. I got out just in time. But it sure has made my hobby a pain in the butt.

Thanks again.

[blykins]

Hey guys, First of all, thanks for all the replies and input. I appreciate that none of you really blasted me as sometimes happens in a forum. I like what you said Brent about the valve springs. I did single them up for break in. I did use break in oil but to be honest it was Jegs break in oil that is supposed to have all the ZDDP in it that you are supposed to need. Maybe that was part of it. All the lifters did rotate in the bores at any position. I made absolutely sure of that considering the age of this block. It didn't turn that much before firing on up. during break in I heard a pretty loud tapping at the rear of the passenger valve cover, I put a stethoscope to the valve cover, and I could feel that a rocker arm adjusting nut was barely hitting the baffle for the breather. I of course corrected that after I shut it down. It all seemed to be going well at that point. The next day, with the valve covers off, I checked to see if I had any rockers that had any lash or anything looked out of place. I didn't see anything wrong at this point. I pulled the rocker assys off and put back in the inside springs and set everything back to zero lash to fire it up again and adjust a bit on the timing and idle mixture. During this run as the minutes went along I heard a valve tick, like one was a bit loose. It didn't take long for that tick to turn into a loud clack so I shut it down. You are probably right Brent about too much spring pressure for a hydraulic flat tappet. I took the guy at ProMaxx's word that these springs were good for that kind of cam. On one lifter, just one, the intake on #2, the lifter wore  3/8" off the contact surface. The lifter would still spin in the bore. So, seeing this, out came the motor and trans. When I tore the motor down, all the lifters would come out the top but the bad one. It stayed in till the cam came out and I pushed it down and out. It wore all the way down into the spring inside the lifter. All the bearings had metal in them, and it killed the bearing surfaces of the crank. So I have another crank and bearings here, and I'm waiting on cam bearings.
   I also ordered a Howards Cams hydraulic roller, CL253385-10 cam and lifter kit, Adv Dur 288 int 294 ex 235@050 int and 241@050 ex .560/.560 lift LSA 110 Int CL 106. I also ordered their springs that Howards recommended #98632 that are 145@1.94 and 422 @1.25 pressures. I'll order my pushrods from either Trend or Manton. I realize a custom cam grind might give me a few more horsepower and more torque here or there, but since this is going to be a street car and occasional bracket car, it will be what it is. Again, I do appreciate all you guys giving me your input and expertise on this. I'll let you know how things go if I can ever get any parts here. I'm a retired partsman, 10 years in auto parts then 31 years at a Volvo truck dealership and getting parts now is a thousand times worse than our worst nightmare was before I retired in Jan 2020. I got out just in time. But it sure has made my hobby a pain in the butt.

Thanks again.

Nobody here would blast someone who's having trouble.   

With your new parts that you ordered, make sure to remember to change the distributor gear as well.   Roller cams are steel core cams, flat tappets are iron. 

As for your comment on custom camshafts, they are not just for making more horsepower or torque, they are for optimizing a complete combination.  For instance, your Howards roller camshaft will have 71° of overlap, so it will not have any vacuum on a 390.  It would barely squeak by on adequate vacuum for a 482.  In addition, you only have 53° of major intensity on that intake cam lobe.  That is a very aggressive hydraulic roller lobe, akin to Comp's XE or XFI lobe designs.   My guess is that the cam will be noisy as far as NVH and the engine will not reach its peak potential because of the lobe aggression combined with FE valvetrain weights. 

I will also tell you that the "recommended" parts that are in the catalogs near the camshafts are rarely ever correct.  The very first engine I built, long before I started my business, used a Comp Cams catalog cam along with their recommended valve springs.  The valves floated on the dyno at a lower than expected rpm because of incorrect parts.  These companies don't know how heavy your valves are, which lifters you will use, what your valve spring install height is, etc.   

So, with that being said, make sure you buy a quality spring mic and check all your install heights, then compare that number against the spring specs.  The ProMaxx head site shows that their install height is 1.950".  So your 145 lb seat has went down a hair and 145 lbs is on the light side already for an aggressive lobe and heavier FE valvetrain.   Your open load will probably be somewhere around 375 lbs, which is going to be on the light side as well.  For a camshaft such as this, in order to try and get as much control as possible, I'd be at around 170 lbs seat and 400 lbs open.  You don't want to trade a wiped cam lobe for valve float. 

That's why I really despise these combinations that are offered on the shelf.  The cam lobes that are used are the same ones they use for every engine family.  You can get away with an aggressive lobe on a SBF/SBC, but an FE valve is probably heavier than the valves on any other engine family.   Combine that with insufficient valve spring loads and you can end up with a combo that could cause a lot of problems. 

[lalessi]

Just lucky I guess? I used the same Comp Cam, ED heads, Blue Thunder intake, my 462 build 5 years ago. Stock "dumb bell lifters", stock rocker arms, ED springs that came with the 76 cc heads. I used Comp Cams assembly lube, break-in oil, Melling HV pump, and I pressurized the oiling system prior to start up. I have 80-85 psi cold oil pressure at idle. The cam was broken in on a dyno by the guy that machined and assembled the short block. No problems, 501 HP, 551 lb-ft torque. Not a race engine but a street one.

This was my first FE build in 50 years and I learned by the internet and Barry's book. I made two basic mistakes, I have 11.2 CR and I used an off the shelf cam. If I were doing it again (and I am looking at options now) I would use Brent's cam recommendation, 10 CR, and  hydraulic rollers, (maybe flat tappet).

Lynn

[My427stang]

Hey guys, First of all, thanks for all the replies and input. I appreciate that none of you really blasted me as sometimes happens in a forum. I like what you said Brent about the valve springs. I did single them up for break in. I did use break in oil but to be honest it was Jegs break in oil that is supposed to have all the ZDDP in it that you are supposed to need. Maybe that was part of it. All the lifters did rotate in the bores at any position. I made absolutely sure of that considering the age of this block. It didn't turn that much before firing on up. during break in I heard a pretty loud tapping at the rear of the passenger valve cover, I put a stethoscope to the valve cover, and I could feel that a rocker arm adjusting nut was barely hitting the baffle for the breather. I of course corrected that after I shut it down. It all seemed to be going well at that point. The next day, with the valve covers off, I checked to see if I had any rockers that had any lash or anything looked out of place. I didn't see anything wrong at this point. I pulled the rocker assys off and put back in the inside springs and set everything back to zero lash to fire it up again and adjust a bit on the timing and idle mixture. During this run as the minutes went along I heard a valve tick, like one was a bit loose. It didn't take long for that tick to turn into a loud clack so I shut it down. You are probably right Brent about too much spring pressure for a hydraulic flat tappet. I took the guy at ProMaxx's word that these springs were good for that kind of cam. On one lifter, just one, the intake on #2, the lifter wore  3/8" off the contact surface. The lifter would still spin in the bore. So, seeing this, out came the motor and trans. When I tore the motor down, all the lifters would come out the top but the bad one. It stayed in till the cam came out and I pushed it down and out. It wore all the way down into the spring inside the lifter. All the bearings had metal in them, and it killed the bearing surfaces of the crank. So I have another crank and bearings here, and I'm waiting on cam bearings.
   I also ordered a Howards Cams hydraulic roller, CL253385-10 cam and lifter kit, Adv Dur 288 int 294 ex 235@050 int and 241@050 ex .560/.560 lift LSA 110 Int CL 106. I also ordered their springs that Howards recommended #98632 that are 145@1.94 and 422 @1.25 pressures. I'll order my pushrods from either Trend or Manton. I realize a custom cam grind might give me a few more horsepower and more torque here or there, but since this is going to be a street car and occasional bracket car, it will be what it is. Again, I do appreciate all you guys giving me your input and expertise on this. I'll let you know how things go if I can ever get any parts here. I'm a retired partsman, 10 years in auto parts then 31 years at a Volvo truck dealership and getting parts now is a thousand times worse than our worst nightmare was before I retired in Jan 2020. I got out just in time. But it sure has made my hobby a pain in the butt.

Thanks again.

Thanks for sharing, that stinks

The rockers hitting could do it if it was the same cylinder, spring pressure absolutely could do it if not measured.  BTW, assembled heads as delivered are all over the map.  Not just sloppy workmanship, but some pressure testers are unreliable, some guys have a wider variance, and some guys don't test every spring.  When I build a set of heads, not only do I check every height to the 3rd decimal, but I check every spring and work the differences in pressure and coil bind to my advantage to make them all the same.  Who knows where the Promaxx were

That Howards is a little quick, but comes with good lifters, regardless of cam, I would check installed height and open/close on every spring, I'd want to see you much higher too, likely 160+ with that cam and 410-420 open.   Problem is, your numbers on the springs don't really allow it.  If your open numbers are correct, even if you shim .030-.045, you'll end up light open, and of course you need to watch coil bind.  Any chance you copied the specs wrong?  Would like to see installed height, pressures open and closed, coil bind, and rate as a cross check.  Spring OD would be good too, just to get an idea of how heavy the parts are, also be sure you have a retainer to spring match

I agree with Brent on lobe profiles and math, and I also take a lot of time looking close at it, but even if you already bought and decided to run that cam, which isn't the end of the world, assuming your numbers are right, I'd consider a set of springs that match what you actually need  for installed height and solid pressures and be sure to remember, the Howard/Morel lifters won't want the thick oil most guys run

[DWKgalaxie]

Hi guys, Well after reading all your replies I have a lot more information. The spring number that I got from Howards was # 98632 double springs with no damper the rates they show for these are 145@1.94 closed and 422@ 1.25 open. These were the springs that were recommended by Eric Bolander western regional sales manger for Howards. He sounded like he had been doing this for a while, not just a blabber mouth salesman, and not like someone that had worked at AutoZone up until last week. The springs that were on the website were #98611 that spec'd at 145@1.88 closed and 350@1.25. I told him all the stuff I have in this motor and what I am planning to do with it. The numbers on the #98632 that I received are close to the numbers you guys are looking for, maybe a bit soft on the closed side according to Brent. So are you guys saying that I need to shim these springs a bit to raise the closed pressure? As far as vacuum goes, that we will have to see. You may be right, BUT I have run a cam with .262/.269 and .540 Int .560 Exh with 133 overlap in a 10.25 CR 427 Chevy with oval port heads and never really noticed a vacuum problem for the power brakes. So I'll just have to see, and maybe run a cannister for vaccum to help my booster if I have a problem there. The lifters that come with the Howard cam are Morel and you guys seem to like them, so I didn't think I had to worry there. I am planning to run 5W30 oil as Bolander told me that was a good idea and to expect a little lifter noise on crank up especially if it has been sitting for several days. I do appreciate all your input on this, and value your experience on this kind of engine. For some reason this particular air pump is a lot more difficult to build run and have last than a big block Chevy. I have built several of them. They are easy and easy to make good power with. My last bracket car was a 68 Camaro all steel and glass except the hood, .060 over 396 so 408, 100cc oval port closed chamber heads with a Comp solid flat tappet 11-604-5 256/266 294/304 adv dur 579/605 lift 12.3 CR Edelbrock Victor Jr port matched intake, Rons Fuel Flying Toilet on alcohol, TCI transbrake powerglide TCI 5000 converter, 12 bolt with Strange spool and axles and 488 Richmond gears. I built this all my self, the only thing I had done was having the valve job done to go up to 2.19/1.88 for the Manley race flow valves. This car ran 6.59@ 102 1/8th mile consistently. There was more in it, but I didn't feel the need to push this combo and I was limited to stock suspension with slapper bars. It was deadly consistent and that's what you look for. This Galaxie isn't my first hotrod. And neither was this Camaro. But I am being challenged by this FE build. I know by having been a Chevy guy it sets some of you on edge as does the fact that I bought ProMaxx heads. Well nobody and I mean nobody had any aluminum heads last year, or if they had them they wanted $3000 a piece for them IF you could get them to actually ship them, so I bought what I bought. I never dreamed that I would be a year into getting parts and finishing this motor. Honestly, I'm sick of it. But I have it, I love the body style and I really want to run it, but a lot of the fun has been taken out of it.

Again thanks for the help
Dave Keeton

[blykins]

I would shim them up or get new springs.   

Your "hydraulic flat tappet" springs that come with your ProMaxx heads are 145 @ 1.950".  The springs that you plan on getting from Howards are 145 @ 1.940".  If you were to install them at the install height that your heads are setup for, you would actually have less seat load than the springs that came with your heads.   I will tell you that neither valve spring was/is right for your application.

I specialize in building FE's.  Been doing it for income since 2008.  I also *really* like dabbling in camshaft design and have done loads and loads of dyno testing on FE hydraulic roller camshafts.  Up until about 12-13 years ago, the major two complaints about FE hydraulic rollers were:  1.  They are done pulling at 5500 rpm and then they get into valve float  2.  They're noisy, ticky, and sound like sewing machines.   The reasons for both of those complaints were linked to the same cause, the lobes that were being used for hydraulic roller camshafts were the same lobes that were being used for SBF/SBC/SBM/LS camshafts.  All of those engines have valvetrain weights *much* lighter than an FE.  As a matter of fact, a lot of your BBC valves are lighter valvetrain than Ford FE valves.  In addition, the spring loads that were being used were the same spring loads that were being used on these other engine families. 

The cam lobe designs that were being used to get those unwarranted results, along with the spring loads, are the same ones that you're getting ready to use for your cam and your springs and a lot of the problems are still being perpetuated because the Ford FE isn't one of the most premiere money-making engine families out there.  I could be wrong, but I would venture to say that your western regional sales manager has never assembled an FE, and maybe has never seen one in person before.  Like most camshaft design companies, they are focusing on SBF's, LS, SBC, BBC, etc., because that's where most of the bread and butter is.   If they don't continue to do testing and product development for FE's, then a lot of these same outcomes will always be present, and there will always be guys who are still getting noisy hydraulic rollers and engines that peter out at 5500.

When more aggressive lobes are used, either the valvetrain needs to get lighter, or the spring loads need to go up, or both. 

I get it, of anyone on this forum, I am just as aggravated with availability.  I'm trying to support my family with this kind of market.  I waited for about 4 months last year for Trick Flow heads, 12 weeks for custom pistons, 24 weeks for custom crankshafts, no cam cores, etc.  A lot of that has cleared up some, but we are still waiting.  My gripes with ProMaxx are because I know where the designs came from, as well as the fact that they're obviously putting out heads with valve springs that eat flat tappet cams.  As a matter of fact, all of their valve spring packages look hokey and uninformed to me (525 lbs at .700" with a hydraulic roller?)

Yes, Morel lifters are good, they are all I use.  There is a kinematic viscosity that they need to function.  Most 5W-30 or 10W-30 oils will be there.  Oil viscosity will depend on where you live and how your bearing clearances are set up.  In addition, make sure that your engine is spotless inside after the cam lobe failure.  Morels are very sensitive to trash inside the engine and any spare particles can impede their function.  Also make sure that you have around .0015" lifter bore clearance.  If your lifter bores are loosey-goosey, it could cause lifter function issues. 

FE's are very quirky as far as assembly.  They are one of the more difficult engines to assemble correctly. 

[My427stang]

I think the springs are sorta wrong

Assuming you are at 1.95 now, which may or may not be the case, and keep in mind, you may also have some shims in there already, this is over and above, and anything needed to correct any prior assembly needs to be done

Scenario 1 - A .060 shim added will bring you to 165 closed @ 1.89, and 396 open, and miles from coil bind, of course there will be some variance.  The 165 likely works, but with the quick ramp, steel retainer, and (an assumption here) heavy valve, may cause you issues up top.  I base the valve comment on a tall installed height and generally heavy FE valve, but not sure if those heads use 11/32 or 3/8 and not sure how heavy, but in general, FE valves are heavy. Keep in mind though, you can stack the heck out of shims, but at some point, you fight the spring cup not being able to locate, valve seal location on the guide, so if there are some there already, this may not work

Scenario 2 - .050 keeper and a .015 shim, gets you to 171/403, not much different, probably the best idea here for me if you want to try it.  I still would like to see about 20 lbs more open, but to do that you'd force 20 more on the seat, which is too much IMHO

My guess is the guy tried to save you cost on retainers and spring cups when picking those springs, I'd likely find a better spring combo, but if not, Scenario 2, realizing you may need to correct install height and check all your springs and move them around to get there is a smarter bet. 

Sometimes we make a mountain out of a molehill, but like Brent, I really like cam design planning, and my gut feeling is the springs really have to be matched very close to requirements.  This is likely the case here too, Scenario 2 might be just fine, but I wouldn't just buy keepers and toss a shim in, I'd find someone to set the heads up to the numbers.

FYI - I haven't looked for spring part numbers for you, but it's a pretty normal setup, I'd likely check no-shim heights and then start chasing a spring/keeper/retainer combo if I did the heads

[DWKgalaxie]

Hi Guys,  I thought I'd let you know that the valves in these heads are 11/32"and are under cut. What Manley used to call race flow. The pushrods I was using and will probably use the same kind, but obviously shorter with this roller cam are Manton 3 Series 11/32 x.120 wall and again I am using Performance Quotient aluminum adjustable roller rockers, 1.75 ratio. I don't know how I could get the valve train weight down any lower, and it shouldn't need to be in my mind since this is a street motor that will get occasional bracket race use and I will try to keep it below say 58-5900 since these things are so fragile. It's kinda frustrating that all of you seem to thinks that obviously I had the wrong springs on there from Pro Maxx. Fine. I took those off, because everyone here was saying that they were too strong for the flat tappet cam and that is probably what killed the lifter. Again fine that's in the past now. But the springs I ordered are close to the numbers that Brent said at first would be best for a billet core hydraulic roller cam and Morel hydraulic roller lifters. Now it seems that you guys are telling me that these new springs are all wrong and there is no way to shim them to get the spring pressures to numbers that suit some of you. Where do I buy these magic springs that you guys are talking about? That will have the correct numbers at the open and closed measurements. I thought going to a cam manufacturer that had been around for decades and getting their recommendation for lifters and springs for this application to be used between say 2400 to 5700 rpm was a good idea. They have been making them longer than me and most anyone that I have talked to. Yes they don't "specialize" in FE engines but they have been making parts for them for quite sometime I would think. I live in north Alabama and there aren't a bunch of machine shops close and I can guarantee none of them that are within 150 miles are well versed in FE motors. The closest FE guy is Blair Patrick, he's just 45 miles away but I've never seen any of you guys mention him, and I don't know anything about him. For the most part I have built my own stuff and I've made maybe 1000 passes on the track thru the years and only floated a valve once to the point of piston contact and at that it didn't do anything but bend a valve and ding the piston enough to replace it. And I routinely turned those motors 6500-7000. Once again, I appreciate all the input, but I REALLY don't want to send my heads off to have them built.
 
Just for the sake of asking, how would I check the valve spring pressure with them installed? I just bought a tool to use in a vise or I used it in my press. It is a BCS gauges that reads from 0-1000 psi. Can I just get some shims and put them under the spring and put all that in the press with the tool and measure at the given heights? If so, That's easy.

I don't mean to sound angry or pissy here. I'm just a bit frustrated at spending a LOT of money on this and each time I order something I have to wait forever. And then when I get as close as I can find to what people say I should use and then they say OH NO you have the wrong parts.

Thanks again
Dave

[blykins]

Hi Guys,  I thought I'd let you know that the valves in these heads are 11/32"and are under cut. What Manley used to call race flow. The pushrods I was using and will probably use the same kind, but obviously shorter with this roller cam are Manton 3 Series 11/32 x.120 wall and again I am using Performance Quotient aluminum adjustable roller rockers, 1.75 ratio. I don't know how I could get the valve train weight down any lower, and it shouldn't need to be in my mind since this is a street motor that will get occasional bracket race use and I will try to keep it below say 58-5900 since these things are so fragile. It's kinda frustrating that all of you seem to thinks that obviously I had the wrong springs on there from Pro Maxx. Fine. I took those off, because everyone here was saying that they were too strong for the flat tappet cam and that is probably what killed the lifter. Again fine that's in the past now. But the springs I ordered are close to the numbers that Brent said at first would be best for a billet core hydraulic roller cam and Morel hydraulic roller lifters. Now it seems that you guys are telling me that these new springs are all wrong and there is no way to shim them to get the spring pressures to numbers that suit some of you. Where do I buy these magic springs that you guys are talking about? That will have the correct numbers at the open and closed measurements. I thought going to a cam manufacturer that had been around for decades and getting their recommendation for lifters and springs for this application to be used between say 2400 to 5700 rpm was a good idea. They have been making them longer than me and most anyone that I have talked to. Yes they don't "specialize" in FE engines but they have been making parts for them for quite sometime I would think. I live in north Alabama and there aren't a bunch of machine shops close and I can guarantee none of them that are within 150 miles are well versed in FE motors. The closest FE guy is Blair Patrick, he's just 45 miles away but I've never seen any of you guys mention him, and I don't know anything about him. For the most part I have built my own stuff and I've made maybe 1000 passes on the track thru the years and only floated a valve once to the point of piston contact and at that it didn't do anything but bend a valve and ding the piston enough to replace it. And I routinely turned those motors 6500-7000. Once again, I appreciate all the input, but I REALLY don't want to send my heads off to have them built.
 
Just for the sake of asking, how would I check the valve spring pressure with them installed? I just bought a tool to use in a vise or I used it in my press. It is a BCS gauges that reads from 0-1000 psi. Can I just get some shims and put them under the spring and put all that in the press with the tool and measure at the given heights? If so, That's easy.

I don't mean to sound angry or pissy here. I'm just a bit frustrated at spending a LOT of money on this and each time I order something I have to wait forever. And then when I get as close as I can find to what people say I should use and then they say OH NO you have the wrong parts.

Thanks again
Dave

Dave,

I never did give you a recommendation for spring loads for a hydraulic roller.   You had valve springs for a flat tappet camshaft that had too much spring pressure and then you ordered springs based on what your Howards guy told you without looking at the install height of your cylinder heads, so in theory, you ended up with new springs that had less seat load than the springs you had before.   

You need to measure your current install heights, present the info back here, then we can try to help you figure out what you'll need as far as a valve spring.   You measure install heights with a valve spring micrometer, then use a spring pressure tester to see what you have.

I'm not trying to sound angry either, but you've done a lot of parts swapping without measuring anything to see if the parts you're getting are what you need.   

FWIW, the only thing that's really fragile about your FE are the parts that you ordered.   5800-5900 is an absolute walk in the park with the correct parts.   I understand that you were in a time constraint and ordered what everyone had on the shelf, but ProMaxx and PRW are not doing you any favors.   I used to sell those rockers 15 years ago and quit when a bunch of them were failing and coming back.

[My427stang]

Hi Guys,  I thought I'd let you know that the valves in these heads are 11/32"and are under cut. What Manley used to call race flow. The pushrods I was using and will probably use the same kind, but obviously shorter with this roller cam are Manton 3 Series 11/32 x.120 wall and again I am using Performance Quotient aluminum adjustable roller rockers, 1.75 ratio. I don't know how I could get the valve train weight down any lower, and it shouldn't need to be in my mind since this is a street motor that will get occasional bracket race use and I will try to keep it below say 58-5900 since these things are so fragile. It's kinda frustrating that all of you seem to thinks that obviously I had the wrong springs on there from Pro Maxx. Fine. I took those off, because everyone here was saying that they were too strong for the flat tappet cam and that is probably what killed the lifter. Again fine that's in the past now. But the springs I ordered are close to the numbers that Brent said at first would be best for a billet core hydraulic roller cam and Morel hydraulic roller lifters. Now it seems that you guys are telling me that these new springs are all wrong and there is no way to shim them to get the spring pressures to numbers that suit some of you. Where do I buy these magic springs that you guys are talking about? That will have the correct numbers at the open and closed measurements. I thought going to a cam manufacturer that had been around for decades and getting their recommendation for lifters and springs for this application to be used between say 2400 to 5700 rpm was a good idea. They have been making them longer than me and most anyone that I have talked to. Yes they don't "specialize" in FE engines but they have been making parts for them for quite sometime I would think. I live in north Alabama and there aren't a bunch of machine shops close and I can guarantee none of them that are within 150 miles are well versed in FE motors. The closest FE guy is Blair Patrick, he's just 45 miles away but I've never seen any of you guys mention him, and I don't know anything about him. For the most part I have built my own stuff and I've made maybe 1000 passes on the track thru the years and only floated a valve once to the point of piston contact and at that it didn't do anything but bend a valve and ding the piston enough to replace it. And I routinely turned those motors 6500-7000. Once again, I appreciate all the input, but I REALLY don't want to send my heads off to have them built.
 
Just for the sake of asking, how would I check the valve spring pressure with them installed? I just bought a tool to use in a vise or I used it in my press. It is a BCS gauges that reads from 0-1000 psi. Can I just get some shims and put them under the spring and put all that in the press with the tool and measure at the given heights? If so, That's easy.

I don't mean to sound angry or pissy here. I'm just a bit frustrated at spending a LOT of money on this and each time I order something I have to wait forever. And then when I get as close as I can find to what people say I should use and then they say OH NO you have the wrong parts.

Thanks again
Dave

Hi Dave, I was out of town sorry for the late reply.  Not saying the springs are "all wrong" but they may not be the right ones, and honestly you have some data missing to be 100% sure

Any time I spec a set of springs, I start by measuring the available space between a standard retainer with standard retainers, and allow for a planned locator thickness.  That's the intended installed height. 

I measure every single valve to see how much variance, and the tallest and shortest.  It's easily changeable by +/- keepers, shims, etc, so you look for something that works for all 16   THAT'S the step we are missing, and to be brotherly blunt, I won't buy springs until I do that, period

Second, we have tried to deduce installed height (guess) based on the advertising specs of the heads in this thread, and when we did that, my two scenarios are logical, but not actual, so still sort of stuck

You need a valve spring micrometer to do this

After I come up with an installed height, I look at spring specs and have a plan on how I will shim them, in theory

THEN...I check pressure at that planned installed height, and open, and coil bind for every individual spring in the set.  I keep track of all, and assuming no goofy springs in the set, I move them around to complement the various installed heights to get pressures very close once installed

To do that, you need an accurate pressure tester with height measurement.  Generally the cheap ones aren't that good.

That's why I mentioned it might be smarter to just drop them off somewhere, or even ship the heads to someone like Brent or me and just get them back right.  If you are Brent's customer, I'd recommend him, he can make them very right

FYI - Coil bind heights can vary by .020, pressures by 10-15 lbs, and if you don't know your current installed height and planned pressures, you can see how that Howards salesman just sorta guessed, especially with typical salesman ability, or lack thereof.  My gut says you can make them work, but there is some blueprinting that needs to be done first, never mind a variety of shims to get to your final result anyway

Like Rosanne Rosanna Danna said....It's always somethin