Author Topic: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA  (Read 2649 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1147
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2022, 02:48:17 PM »
Joe, what was the vacuum reading at WOT?
Frank

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1502
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2022, 03:05:03 PM »
Vacuum reading with dual plane was 1.4-1.5", with single plane 4150 was 1.1", and with single plane-dominator and tunnel ram .8-.9". Changing break-in oil to Amsoil 5W-20 did not make a difference in horsepower.  I am still amazed at how the Y Block responds to traditional hot rodding principles and makes easy horsepower.  All the Y block needed was a head with the combustion chambers over the cylinder, and a good distributor to be competitive with anything of the time period.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

pbf777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2022, 04:30:08 PM »
...............competitive with anything of the time period. 

     Our old-guy round-track (short-track) customers whom we used to talk to decades ago described that in their experience back in the day as participants, that the 292 & 312's did just fine against the 265's & 283's, up until the 327's started showing up then it became a little tougher.   :)

     Scott.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 04:34:11 PM by pbf777 »

Dr Mabuse

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2022, 08:39:28 PM »
It sounds like this Y-block is getting close to an maximum, all-out build?

What do you think would be a max-effort? More RPM with an even bigger cam? 700 horsepower? Supercharging?

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1502
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2022, 10:35:25 PM »
The only thing that I can think of to make more horsepower with this engine is to up the compression another point or so, add a vacuum pump, and try to get more lift with a steel rocker arm system.  The 1.7 aluminum roller rocker arms deflect ~.020" at maximum lift with the PAC dual springs.  The lobes are .409/.395" which would give me .695"/.672" lift.  I measured it at .679"/.666".  I don't know why the exhaust did not deflect as much unless it is valve weight difference.  Getting more lift can only be accomplished with rocker arms, not the camshaft base circle.  I use a +.100" longer lifter to keep the lifter from cocking in the bore at zero lift with the 1.100" base circle on this camshaft.  These heads are maxed out, there is not enough room for larger valves unless a person would go "Jon Kaase" on them, and I don't have his pocketbook to do that.  I am considering building another similar engine but with low compression and Pro Charger with intercooler to see what is possible with the Y.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

pbf777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2022, 02:13:25 PM »
Vacuum reading with dual plane was 1.4-1.5", with single plane 4150 was 1.1", and with single plane-dominator and tunnel ram .8-.9".

The only thing that I can think of to make more horsepower with this engine is.............


     Well no doubt a forced-induction option could push the power up; but if I were determined to strive for that which can be achieved naturally-aspirated, and particularly when referencing the vacuum reading statement, then I would be looking at eliminating the carburetor(s) and switching to a fuel injection effort.  :-\

     Notice that I didn't say 'electronic' fuel injection, as I don't think that the electrics would be required for your effort, or for the drag racing environment; and this also isn't a statement that mechanical fuel injection isn't possible for anything else either.  :)

     The problem (well yes, everything costs to much money ::)) is that there isn't a 'good' (for making power ;)) fuel injection manifold out there available; the old Hilborn and Argon examples just don't have the internal cross-sectional area necessary, so a manifold would need to be constructed.  And this would prove difficult, this particularly due to the 'Y'-Blocks' "stacked" inlet port presentation layout. :P

     But, since I have the Bridgeport, lathe, welding equipment, etc, and have dove into similar frustrating efforts before, I would probably begin by picking-up from somewhere a used larger throttle bore (e.g. Kinsler) I.R. manifold casting, something with spread ports might prove more flexible in the end, but perhaps just the more common S.B.C. stuff might prove cheaper to acquire, and start starring at it, for possibilities, cutting-up, welding, perhaps sectioning and grafting to one of the carb manifolds and shaping, attempting to establish if it could be made into something useful, or just as a pattern, if only to aid in the thought process for a next better effort. It would most likely prove to be somewhat unconventional, but..........  :-\

     And if at first you don't succeed.................. ; and I know to well of this scenario!  But then, who doesn't like a good challenge!  ::)

     Scott.

     


« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 02:16:42 PM by pbf777 »

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4470
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2022, 10:12:36 PM »
Everything I've ever read or seen says that fuel injection will not make more power. Lots of back to back testing out there to back that up as well. Theory is that the fuel cools the air, and cooling equals denser charge. Driveability and low speed improves dramatically, but not maximum power, or even the power over and under maximum. If talking about a throttle body style injection, I still don't see it making more power at peak.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1502
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2022, 03:39:54 PM »
He is talking about mechanical stack injection with ram tubes.   Royce B has a working Y Block with one of those systems and it performs quite well.  I am not going to change over just yet to EFI.  I want to change the camshaft and try some different spacers and valve lash settings before I tear it apart.  The dyno has Bosch AFR readings, and if those are maximized for ~`12.9-.13.1 AFR, then I don't see FI or EFI making any more power over the carbs.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

kcoffield

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
    • inlinecarb.com
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2022, 11:57:22 AM »
Opinions vary on this, but many intakes have a shallow grid pattern on the plenum floor and I see yours have dimples installed. What do you think that is doing performancewise? Most would say it's to prevent or collect and re-atomize fuel that comes out of suspension.

Best,
Kellly
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 11:59:34 AM by kcoffield »

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1502
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2022, 04:34:06 PM »
In back to back testing on a 400 hp engine, with identical intakes except for the dimples, the dimpled intake increased the torque average by 3lb/ft, and average horsepower by 3hp.  Was repeated backward with intake change and lost the 3lb/ft, 3hp.  Yes, the dyno can be that specific if the operator does everything the same way and within a few minutes of each test.  The Y Block intakes are easy and quick to change if you use white lithium grease on the intake gaskets.  I can change one in about 5 minutes and be back and up running, even with a partial water drop on the dyno tower.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

kcoffield

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
    • inlinecarb.com
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2022, 09:40:19 AM »
In back to back testing on a 400 hp engine, with identical intakes except for the dimples, the dimpled intake increased the torque average by 3lb/ft, and average horsepower by 3hp.  Was repeated backward with intake change and lost the 3lb/ft, 3hp.  Yes, the dyno can be that specific if the operator does everything the same way and within a few minutes of each test.  The Y Block intakes are easy and quick to change if you use white lithium grease on the intake gaskets.  I can change one in about 5 minutes and be back and up running, even with a partial water drop on the dyno tower.  Joe-JDC

<0.75% repeatability and accuracy is quite attention getting for dyno and engine testing.

When you say average, was it uniform increase across the range or better at some engine speeds?

Maybe yours is not to reason why but I'm a curious soul and cant help myself. To what do you attribute the performance gain? Obviously the dimples but what's the mechanism/forces at play?

Best,
Kelly

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1502
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2022, 10:32:44 AM »
7-8 hp difference at certain rpm, but the average increased overall in both torque and horsepower.  I don't have the dyno sheets here now to show you, but I am a firm believer that the dimples help with keeping the fuel in suspension and not clinging to the port walls or floor.  When you have a flat bottom to the plenum, the fuel splatters and can come back up out of the secondaries.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

Royce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2022, 10:32:25 AM »
Here is my Hilborn injected Y .. Joe Craine ported iron heads,11:1,  333 inches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Hpz3qPlpI

Dyno pull.. 462 peak  I would have to go back and look to see how this compared to a single 4 intake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGq0udWwXBA
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 10:42:08 AM by Royce »
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

pbf777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2022, 01:31:08 PM »
Here is my Hilborn injected Y ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Hpz3qPlpI

     That's quite a nice setup you have!  And not to hy-jack this thread (perhaps start a new one  :-\) please do describe your system!   :)

     Scott.

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1147
    • View Profile
Re: Real Ford Y Block 4V makes 613 hp NA
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2022, 01:41:31 PM »
Not to take away from Joe's thread but, that's a beautiful looking engine!

I can't remember seeing such a late model FI for a Y- block. Are you using a dual by pass on it or the old single?
Frank