449 stroker

[Sand hauler]

Performance Summary:
      Cubic Inches:   449            Dyno brand: Super Flow
      Power Adder:        you too       Where dynoed: Carlsbad NM, Stoney's Speed Shop
      Peak Horsepower:666.5 @7000 where we stopped the pull
      Peak Torque:635.5 @4500

Horsepower and Torque Curves:


Engine Specifications:
   Block brand, material, finished bore size, other notes:
      390 ribbed block, 4.10 bore
   Crankshaft brand, cast or forged, stroke, journal size:
      Scat 4.25 cast
   Connecting Rods brand, material, center to center distance, end sizes, bolts:
Molinar 6.7
   Piston brand, material (caster, hypereutectic or forged), dish/dome volume, static CR:
Mahle dish, 10.75 cr +/-
   Main Bearings, Rod Bearings, Cam Bearings brand and size:

   Piston rings brand, size, other notes:
Stoker kit from Survival Motor Sports
   Oil Pump, pickup, and drive:
Precision blue printed hv, FT pick up, 1/4 in ARP drive
   Oil pan, windage tray, oil filter adapter:
F/T pan with added trap door baffles, Canton windage tray,stock truck adapter
   Camshaft brand, type (hyd/solid, flat tappet or roller), lift and duration (adv and @.050")
Mike Jones hyd roller,254/261@.050 ,.390 lift at lobe, tight lashed .015 hot.
   Lifters brand, type: Crower solid roller with pressure oiling

   Timing chain and timing cover:POP double Roller, FT  cast iron cover

   Cylinder heads brand, material, port and chamber information: BBM , CNC'D port's by Blair Patrick,

   Cylinder head flow in cfm at inches of lift (28" H2O pressure drop):
      Intake               Exhaust
      .100               .100
      .200               .200
      .300               .300
      .400               .400
      .500               .500
      .600               .600
      .700               .700
      .800               .800

   Flow bench used, location:

   Intake valve brand, head size, stem size:
2.20 Ferrera,11/16 stem
   Exhaust valve brand, head size, stem size:
   1.68 Ferrera,11/16
   Valve springs brand, part number, specs:
PAC
   Retainers and locks brand, part number, specs:
PAA
   Rocker arm brand, type (adjustable or non-adj), material, ratio
T&D race,1.76,1.80
   Rocker shafts and stands, brand, material:

   Pushrods brand, type, length:
Comp cam, 3/8
   Valve covers, brand, type:
Holley M/T
   Distributor brand, advance curve information:
Pertronix Billet
   Harmonic balancer brand:
Power Bond sfi
   Water pump brand, type (mechanical or electric):
Stewart hv
   Intake manifold brand, material, porting information:TFS track heat, unported

   Carburetor(s) brand, type
Quick Fuel 1250 dominator
   Exhaust manifolds or headers brand, type:
2" primary home assembly from a bbf Speed way motors kit and flanges from Hells Gate Hotrods.

     

[fryedaddy]

thats the kind of dyno i like to see.great power for a 390 stroker.nice to see the good power coming from those bbm heads.now i know for sure i need to take my heads to Blairs for cnc

[1968galaxie]

Fantastic build.
Thank you for posting.
I was wondering about the BBM heads used with a smaller bore engine.
I see 2.20" and 1.68 valve size used. Were valve sizes changed(reduced)?
BBM CNC heads advertised 2.25" and 1.71" valve sizes as standard.
Did Blair modify intake? (sleeve push rod holes and move them apart?)

Very good results with reasonably low compression, and a smallish cam!
The cylinder heads and intake are working well.

[Sand hauler]

Blair did all the head work. Sent him bare castings. His combo on them . The intake we did here , but could have had him it. Had to mill it .045 to fit the heads  and yes had to massage some of the pushrod hole a little bit on the bottom and the top. Blair cut the heads .120 if I remember correctly, to bring up the compression with the dish pistons. Worked out nicely with .020 valve clearance . Lift at valve was .686& . 703 I believe +/. -

[blykins]

What were the spring pressures?  You may have had some pretty significant valve float going on.

Starting at around 6100, the horsepower was not linear but jumping all over the place and your BSFC went inefficient at that rpm.   

[jayb]

You may have had some pretty significant valve float going on.

MAY have??  That engine is really, really unstable at the top end.  The power numbers are slamming back and forth 40+ HP up there, and that inertia affects the accuracy of the dyno's torque link.  Obvious valvetrain problems at the higher engine speeds.  Nice build, but from 6000 RPM up those numbers are not accurate.

[Sand hauler]

A little over 550 over the nose as I recall. The distributor started having a intermittent miss after 6. Is a plug and play pertronix Billet flame thrower 2 . That we have determined was the cause of it. I'm going swap distributor to either a MSD or a OEM . Wand a cd box. Called pertronix and they think it's the module since it's over 2 yrs old.

[Sand hauler]

Plan on re running it after a dist. Change

[blykins]

I'm really starting to think you don't have enough spring.  Not leaning towards distributor miss.  What you were probably hearing was valve float.

Seat pressure is most important but open plays a big role.  What was seat pressure?  Open pressure should have been 650-700 lbs. 

[Sand hauler]

Don't remember offhand. Although is it possible that push rod wall thickness would caus that as well? It's .080 wall on them.

[blykins]

Don't remember offhand. Although is it possible that push rod wall thickness would caus that as well? It's .080 wall on them.

Probably not to the effect that you were seeing. 

If you didn't have at least 250 lbs seat pressure, you were too light. 

A floating exhaust valve is a ticking time bomb.  I would double check your spring pressures before you put it on the dyno again.

[Sand hauler]

I'm really starting to think you don't have enough spring.  Not leaning towards distributor miss.  What you were probably hearing was valve float.

Seat pressure is most important but open plays a big role.  What was seat pressure?  Open pressure should have been 650-700 lbs.

Will double check

[Stangman]

alittle lean up top also no. I thought low to mid 13s is about were it should be. Not saying thats why its jumping around but maybe alittle tuning in there might help although 667 HP is nothing to sneeze at.

[1968galaxie]

I would double check what valve springs were used and what the open and closed pressures are.
Mike Jones knows more about camshafts and valve spring pressures required than anyone on the planet. (period)
I would be asking Mike and possibly Blair Patric. I am not sure which person spec'd the spring for the hydro-roller cam profile
with solid rolled springs. Using solid roller lifters usually requires a little more spring pressure - open and closed.

Ask the person(s) who put the combination together - they will know the answer.

[Sand hauler]

Absolutely

[Sand hauler]

We're going to get it figured out, one step at time. Still have tweeking and tuning to do.  Figured I'd go ahead and show what we got going on even though it's a work in progress, for a old full size street truck,lol

[Stangman]

Well good luck you’ve got a good start I would be happy with that HP on my 486 keep us informed.

[Sand hauler]

Will do, and thank you

[Barry_R]

Looks cool.  I'd agree that the data is suspect.  Torque at 1.4+ per cubic inch is really high but achievable in a very well refined build.  But couple that number with the obvious instability at high RPM, and what you were hearing on dyno - and I would be questioning things.  Once the engine goes unstable, all the data and A/F ratio stuff goes out the proverbial window.

I have successfully run solid roller FE engines past 7500 RPM with 230ish seat and just over 600 open, with cam lifts in the low/middle .700s.  But Jones stuff has a reputation for being pretty aggressive and probably needs more spring than that.  Those .080 wall pushrods are a definite potential issue.  I had a solid roller build that ran customer supplied pushrods which turned out to measure .047 (!) and - after bending a couple - it gained 40ish HP with a set of .135 wall ones.

[Sand hauler]

Looks cool.  I'd agree that the data is suspect.  Torque at 1.4+ per cubic inch is really high but achievable in a very well refined build.  But couple that number with the obvious instability at high RPM, and what you were hearing on dyno - and I would be questioning things.  Once the engine goes unstable, all the data and A/F ratio stuff goes out the proverbial window.

I have successfully run solid roller FE engines past 7500 RPM with 230ish seat and just over 600 open, with cam lifts in the low/middle .700s.  But Jones stuff has a reputation for being pretty aggressive and probably needs more spring than that.  Those .080 wall pushrods are a definite potential issue.  I had a solid roller build that ran customer supplied pushrods which turned out to measure .047 (!) and - after bending a couple - it gained 40ish HP with a set of .135 wall ones.

Yes sir, I am wondering about that as well. Thank you sir for all the help and support and providing the stroker kit for me

[blykins]

But Jones stuff has a reputation for being pretty aggressive and probably needs more spring than that.

That’s been my experience as well as the experience of some others I know, including Joe Craine.  I used a Jones hydraulic roller in a 445 Windsor back in 2008 that could not be controlled even with significant spring loads.  Joe had a Jones cam in a Y block EMC engine that would loft the valves and could not be controlled.  Joe thought part of the problem was that the cam was ground with an incorrect lifter angle. 

From what I’ve tried with my own stuff, you can sneak up on the lobe aggression, but you have to lighten the valvetrain weight to help out with things. 

I also agree that 230-250 lb seat should be sufficient, but you never can tell. 

[Joe-JDC]

My experience with Jones mechanical lifter camshaft was that the engine would pull cleanly to 6600 rpm, and crash.  It was supposedly designed to pull to 7200 rpm for the EMC competition build.  I had 1.94/1.56 light weight 5/16" valve stems, titanium retainers, LS beehive springs, Smith Brother's chromoly push rods, Trend Lifters, and Harland Sharp 1.6 roller rocker shaft mounted rocker arms.  I had three sets of heads ported, with all the light weight parts mentioned for each of them, and we tested 5 different sets of valve springs all with the same results that the engine would "pop" at 6600 rpm and nose dive.  I upped the seat pressure from 135# to 167# keeping the over the nose at a safe pressure of 430#.  After upping the seat pressure to 167#, the engine would pull to 6900 rpm and crash.  We entered the engine in that configuration and was able to make three successful pulls to 7100 rpm with the "pop" and roll over on the top end.  After the EMC, back at the shop, we installed a new Isky camshaft that was ordered but did not make it in time for dyno testing before the competition, and the engine responded with clean pulls to 7400 rpm without a single "pop" and picked up 12 horsepower.  Everything was just exactly as it was for the EMC except the camshaft.  Same Trend Lifters, everything.  We(Ted Eaton and I) did a degree wheel check of every lobe on the Jones camshaft and if you advanced or retarded it any from straight up, the lobes were all over the place with none of them falling into line with the cam card.  #1 was only correct at straight up, all the other cylinders were off as much as 8*+/-. 
When I questioned Mike about the results, he asked me a bunch of questions about the build, and then the lifter angle for the Y.  He ASSUMED the camshaft lobes were the same as the SBC, and they are not.  There is 3* difference between the lifter bore angles in the Y from the SBC.  He corrected his information, cut me two new camshafts, and I am going to test one of them in the next few days.  When I degreed it, I went ahead and checked #6 against #1, and it was spot on, correct.  We shall see.   Joe-JDC

[Sand hauler]

Thanks Joe for the heads up and info on that y block cam. This one only liked being straight up as well, but no pop or laying over . Going to get a MSD ordered next week for it then back to testing.

[1968galaxie]

The ignition system upgrades should certainly help.
Keep us posted if you get this back on the dyno.
1.5 + hp/cu inch is certainly possible.
The CNC'd BBM heads and well above average combustion chamber (low 30 degree timing)
should lead to well above average power output.

Well done!
Thanks for posting.

[Sand hauler]

Will definitely do,thank you sir

[JC-427Stroker]

Looks cool.  I'd agree that the data is suspect.  Torque at 1.4+ per cubic inch is really high but achievable in a very well refined build.  But couple that number with the obvious instability at high RPM, and what you were hearing on dyno - and I would be questioning things.  Once the engine goes unstable, all the data and A/F ratio stuff goes out the proverbial window.

I have successfully run solid roller FE engines past 7500 RPM with 230ish seat and just over 600 open, with cam lifts in the low/middle .700s.  But Jones stuff has a reputation for being pretty aggressive and probably needs more spring than that.  Those .080 wall pushrods are a definite potential issue.  I had a solid roller build that ran customer supplied pushrods which turned out to measure .047 (!) and - after bending a couple - it gained 40ish HP with a set of .135 wall ones.

Great info

[JC-427Stroker]

My experience with Jones mechanical lifter camshaft was that the engine would pull cleanly to 6600 rpm, and crash.  It was supposedly designed to pull to 7200 rpm for the EMC competition build.  I had 1.94/1.56 light weight 5/16" valve stems, titanium retainers, LS beehive springs, Smith Brother's chromoly push rods, Trend Lifters, and Harland Sharp 1.6 roller rocker shaft mounted rocker arms.  I had three sets of heads ported, with all the light weight parts mentioned for each of them, and we tested 5 different sets of valve springs all with the same results that the engine would "pop" at 6600 rpm and nose dive.  I upped the seat pressure from 135# to 167# keeping the over the nose at a safe pressure of 430#.  After upping the seat pressure to 167#, the engine would pull to 6900 rpm and crash.  We entered the engine in that configuration and was able to make three successful pulls to 7100 rpm with the "pop" and roll over on the top end.  After the EMC, back at the shop, we installed a new Isky camshaft that was ordered but did not make it in time for dyno testing before the competition, and the engine responded with clean pulls to 7400 rpm without a single "pop" and picked up 12 horsepower.  Everything was just exactly as it was for the EMC except the camshaft.  Same Trend Lifters, everything.  We(Ted Eaton and I) did a degree wheel check of every lobe on the Jones camshaft and if you advanced or retarded it any from straight up, the lobes were all over the place with none of them falling into line with the cam card.  #1 was only correct at straight up, all the other cylinders were off as much as 8*+/-. 
When I questioned Mike about the results, he asked me a bunch of questions about the build, and then the lifter angle for the Y.  He ASSUMED the camshaft lobes were the same as the SBC, and they are not.  There is 3* difference between the lifter bore angles in the Y from the SBC.  He corrected his information, cut me two new camshafts, and I am going to test one of them in the next few days.  When I degreed it, I went ahead and checked #6 against #1, and it was spot on, correct.  We shall see.   Joe-JDC

Great info ... Good luck with the new test.

[Sand hauler]

Just an update, got the miss problem fixed. Ended up being not enough voltage feeding the the coil and the distributor module . Ran a switched 12 volt wire from the battery straight to the module and problem solved. Didn't beat on it after that and ran it with the 850 demon carb with a 1" spacer instead of the dominator. Made 640 at 6500 and was still making power and no sign of detonation or float
. Still has more to give with the other carb but was time to take her home and installed.

[1968galaxie]

Thanks for the update.
Not always valve float. Carb and ignition issues will also show up on dyno testing.
Glad you sorted this out.

[Sand hauler]

Thank you sir I appreciate it

[fryedaddy]

MAN,its engines like this that makes me proud to be an FE guy.i cant wait till im financially able to get my heads done at Blairs.i think he needs to change his name to FE KING. i would love to have an engine like that under my hood and tell my gm buddies,"its just an old 390" then smoke their ass.

[Sand hauler]

Lol yes sir, gonna just tell them it's just an old dump truck engine, lmao
Thank you sir