Author Topic: 6" Vac at Idle?  (Read 2980 times)

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CV355

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6" Vac at Idle?
« on: October 25, 2021, 12:57:59 PM »
I'm seeing about 6" of vac at idle and a max of 10" on rpm decel after a throttle blip.  Is that about normal?

Engine Specs:
484ci, 9.6:1 CR, Trick Flow Heads
Initial timing = 15 degrees, advance to 30 WOT (through Dual-sync and Holley Sniper)

The cam specs are:
287/299 - 110LSA
Dur @ 0.050":  Int 233 / Exh 245
Lift = Int 0.595" / Exh 0.595"

Lots of overlap...

The engine idles nicely, so we doubt there is a vacuum leak anywhere.  Initial timing might not be perfect, and there is some notable low-end hesitation until the engine is up to temp (give it a blip of the throttle and it misfires).  I'm adding an electric pump for the brake booster, and I am working out details for adding a GZ vac pump.  The tuner noted that the engine was weeping a tiny bit of oil out the FMS after 10-20 minutes of running on the dyno, low varying throttle.  I haven't seen a single drip anywhere myself, but it is something I am watching for.  Then again, the car hasn't left my driveway as I'm working out other issues first.

Any advice or things I should watch out for? 


« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 02:06:40 PM by CV355 »

GerryP

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2021, 01:34:12 PM »
What displacement, what static compression, and what base timing?  Nobody knows the answer to your question without filling in some blanks.

CV355

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2021, 01:47:34 PM »
What displacement, what static compression, and what base timing?  Nobody knows the answer to your question without filling in some blanks.

Good call, sorry I missed that.  Updated my post.  I am waiting on the tuner for the initial timing, but the rest was available. 

Also, this is N/A for now.  I have an F1 Procharger on the engine, but we don't have a belt or intake on it yet.  We fired the car up N/A so it's just breathing through a flat canister filter for now.  End goal is 4-5psi max, in case that has any bearing on the vac issue or solutions

GerryP

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2021, 01:58:13 PM »
So the engine is running with no supercharger plumbing or drawing air through a compressor wheel?   I would say you have something going on there.  That vacuum signal is way low for those engine specs.   I would first suspect that with your other issues, you have a problem in the tune up.

CV355

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2021, 02:08:35 PM »
So the engine is running with no supercharger plumbing or drawing air through a compressor wheel?   I would say you have something going on there.  That vacuum signal is way low for those engine specs.   I would first suspect that with your other issues, you have a problem in the tune up.

Correct, the blower is just bolted up and that's it.  No intake piping.  The Sniper unit is breathing from a canister filter for the time being.

I also updated the post with the timing, tuner just got back to me.  He thinks the Sniper tune reset for some reason, so I'm going to re-run it tonight. 

GerryP

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2021, 02:32:21 PM »
"...advance to 30 WOT"  I think you mean total advance.  It seems you are getting an LS tune.  The guys like Barry and Brent will probably chime in, but you are six to eight degrees short of where you can run a modern FE head, like a TrickFlow.  Your initial seems pretty close.  Your fuel maps are probably fubar. 

cammerfe

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2021, 10:09:55 PM »
I agree with Gerry regarding total advance. The old factory solid lifter approach was to have the diz in the slot marked 10 degrees, which is, of course, actually 20 ignition degrees. Putting in an additional 18 initial, for a total of 38 always worked well so long as you made sure to keep your tank full of Sunoco 260. More modern combustion chambers in aluminum heads might well see your ultimate at 35 or thereabouts total, but you'd need to sneak up on it from where you are at present. Very likely 30 isn't enough. Working with a set of Dove F5 heads with Jim's own chamber design, at 11.5 measured compression and a Comp cam with 242-248 at .050 and lift around .650, we found 34 to work very well during Dyno evaluation.

KS

My427stang

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2021, 06:29:07 AM »
A couple of things.  72 degrees overlap isn't bad, it should be showing you closer to 10-12, especially if you feed it some timing

The total timing won't change vacuum, but regardless, the Trick Flows I have used ranged from 32-35 degrees advance, yours is a bit lower compression (until the blower is connected) so I'd stop at 35-36 but bentter do check on dyno for peak power, no benefit going higher with the good chamber

Be sure your initial is right, check the balancer, set the Sniper, then see if the commanded timing reads the same as the balancer. 

To adjust the timing correction once you check it, use the inductive delay section under"system parameters" "Engine parameters" and "ignition" The delay up or down will move the mark to make sure what the commanded timing matches what you read.  Holley's system usually requires you to upload after every change, easy, but be sure you are doing it

Additionally, depending on your distributor, reference angle has to be right too.  That's applicable for Dualsyncs and set during distributor install (but again, balancer must be checked)

After all that, the root cause I think is I'd likely be at 15 crank and something like 18-20 idle.  If using the Sniper to control, the 2D table for timing is a pain at initial setup.  Set it up 18/40/35 across the board using the "simple" field, and 15 for crank under "cranking parameters" then if you need to tweak areas, you can go to 2D table
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2021, 07:31:49 AM »
"...advance to 30 WOT"  I think you mean total advance.  It seems you are getting an LS tune.  The guys like Barry and Brent will probably chime in, but you are six to eight degrees short of where you can run a modern FE head, like a TrickFlow.  Your initial seems pretty close.  Your fuel maps are probably fubar.

So if it was higher compression, 29-30° total would probably be where I would head.  I have some 12-13:1 engines running TFS heads that like to run there.

However, with 9.5:1 that number will most likely need to go up some.  I'd try some 33-34-35° pulls on the dyno or read plugs to see where it wants to be. 

I'm an 18-20° initial kinda guy. 

Definitely something going on though, 6" of vac is way low for that combo. 
Brent Lykins
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TJ

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2021, 09:20:56 AM »
When I get a whacky number like that, I verify the vacuum gauge and timing light are good…especially since the engine is running okay.

CV355

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2021, 10:49:46 AM »
Thanks for the responses, guys!  This helps a lot.  Sounds like an initial timing issue at the very minimum based on the responses.  I could live with 10-12" at idle, might not need the belt vac unit if that is achievable. 

have the diz in the slot marked 10 degrees, which is, of course, actually 20 ignition degrees.

Can you elaborate on that? 

GerryP

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2021, 11:02:54 AM »
...
Can you elaborate on that?

Inside the Ford distributor, below the points plate, there is the centrifugal advance mechanism.  This consists of a plate with two slots opposite each other, the springs, and the distributor rotor shaft that is controlled by the advance mechanism.  Those opposing slots are where a tab fits in, but only into one of the slots.  The slots are stamped with the number of distributor degrees, which are half crankshaft degrees.  Every Ford distributor is different to account for the many configurations required.  In this instance, he's referring to the one slot being stamped "10", which is 10 distributor degrees, or 20 crankshaft degrees.  And it is crankshaft degrees from which you use the timing light and read the distributor centrifugal advance.  You can see how the centrifugal advance works by removing the distributor cap and turning the rotor.  It does move a bit and in this case, up to 10 degrees out of the circle.

CV355

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2021, 11:45:01 AM »
...
Can you elaborate on that?

Inside the Ford distributor, below the points plate, there is the centrifugal advance mechanism.  This consists of a plate with two slots opposite each other, the springs, and the distributor rotor shaft that is controlled by the advance mechanism.  Those opposing slots are where a tab fits in, but only into one of the slots.  The slots are stamped with the number of distributor degrees, which are half crankshaft degrees.  Every Ford distributor is different to account for the many configurations required.  In this instance, he's referring to the one slot being stamped "10", which is 10 distributor degrees, or 20 crankshaft degrees.  And it is crankshaft degrees from which you use the timing light and read the distributor centrifugal advance.  You can see how the centrifugal advance works by removing the distributor cap and turning the rotor.  It does move a bit and in this case, up to 10 degrees out of the circle.

Ah, gotcha. 

My427stang

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2021, 02:59:43 PM »
What are you using for a distributor?
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cammerfe

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Re: 6" Vac at Idle?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2021, 10:18:44 PM »
...
Can you elaborate on that?

Inside the Ford distributor, below the points plate, there is the centrifugal advance mechanism.  This consists of a plate with two slots opposite each other, the springs, and the distributor rotor shaft that is controlled by the advance mechanism.  Those opposing slots are where a tab fits in, but only into one of the slots.  The slots are stamped with the number of distributor degrees, which are half crankshaft degrees.  Every Ford distributor is different to account for the many configurations required.  In this instance, he's referring to the one slot being stamped "10", which is 10 distributor degrees, or 20 crankshaft degrees.  And it is crankshaft degrees from which you use the timing light and read the distributor centrifugal advance.  You can see how the centrifugal advance works by removing the distributor cap and turning the rotor.  It does move a bit and in this case, up to 10 degrees out of the circle.

Thanx Gerry---
Very well explained. (I come from a time when we mostly used factory parts and people were aware of the inner 'guts' of factory distributors.) I did put an all-Mallory ignition on my first car---a '53 Merc Flathead :))

KS
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 10:43:32 PM by cammerfe »